RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: ozcol1 on Thursday 02 May 19 02:15 BST (UK)
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I know my ancestor was a grocer in London in 1796 but the electoral roll lists him at the same address as a blacksmith. I have tried to understand voting rights but it seems complex. Can anyone explain this.
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Could you give us their names, please?
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Hi Chempat
His name is John Davis of 54 Burr St Upper East Smithfield (or Wapping).
I believe he died in 1813 and buried at St Botolph Without Aldgate.
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I know my ancestor was a grocer in London in 1796 but the electoral roll lists him at the same address as a blacksmith. I have tried to understand voting rights but it seems complex. Can anyone explain this.
Was the electoral roll a poll book?
Eligibility to vote was complex. Counties and boroughs had different qualifications and there were local peculiarities.
'The History of Parliamentary Franchise' research paper (2013) House of Commons Library. Includes a summary of eligibility to vote before reforms of 19th century. See chapter 'Ancient voting rights in England'.
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/RP13-14/RP13-14.pdf
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Thanks Maiden Stone.
The list I have is UK, Poll Books and Electoral Registers 1538-189? and for the year 1795.
The paper you have referred me to will explain a lot.
Thanks again
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Explanation of poll books on electoralregisters.org
www.electoralregisters.org.uk/pollbooks.htm
One example shown has a qualification column.
Poll books recorded how electors cast their votes. I was surprised to find the name of one of my working-class ancestors in a poll book from 1780s for the county of Lancaster. One of his grandsons, my direct ancestor, was in poll books for the Borough of Preston in 1830s, after 1832 Reform Act. Preston was unusual in that all men over 21 who fulfilled residency criteria and who weren't paupers or felons were eligible to vote. Preston elected a Radical M.P., Henry Hunt.
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Thanks again Maiden Stone for your contributions.
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Have you found a will for your ancestor John Davies? Maybe he had a son also called John who was a blacksmith the father was a grocer, or he managed to do 2 occupations.
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He was a grocer and tea dealer according to the 1808 London directory.
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He was a hosier up until about 1790 and living at 99 Minories London. He married an Ann Pinchback in 1785. I then have him as the grocer and tea merchant after 1793 at Burr St. I am guessing he was born around 1754 but there does not seem to be any blacksmith reference. I have seen a reference to one of his sons Nathaniel Davis being a freeman blacksmith in 1817 but he was a wine merchant at the time. There is very little I can find about Pinchbacks and I was wondering if voting rights could have been transferred from them.
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He was a hosier up until about 1790 and living at 99 Minories London. He married an Ann Pinchback in 1785. I then have him as the grocer and tea merchant after 1793 at Burr St. I am guessing he was born around 1754 but there does not seem to be any blacksmith reference. I have seen a reference to one of his sons Nathaniel Davis being a freeman blacksmith in 1817 but he was a wine merchant at the time.
An odd mix of occupations.
A blacksmith would have required an apprenticeship, probably 7 years. Some apprenticeship records exist from 18th-early 19thC . Apprenticeship agreements were drawn up between the master and parent or guardian of apprentice. There was a tax on these. Some boys learned the craft from father or other relative with no formal agreement so no record.
John and Nathaniel Davis may not have worked as blacksmiths or if they did, only for a short time. They may have been members of the Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths. It was one of the Livery Companies of the City of London. Another Livery Company was the Grocers' Company; I wonder why they didn't join that. Livery Companies were set up in medieval era. Trading within city boundaries was restricted to members of Livery Companies. Blacksmiths had moved outside the City of London by late 18th century and the Worshipful Company gave up its' hall in 1785. Liverymen are entitled to vote for the Lord Mayor.
Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths website https://blacksmithscompany.co.uk In particular, read sections 'History' and 'City links'. Mentions 'free blacksmith'.
I thought the connection may have been Smithfield but that was the old site of the cattle and meat markets. Then I had a lightbulb moment about guilds.
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Thanks again for your contribution Maiden Stone. Through the blacksmith link you gave, I ended up at Wikipedia under City Of London Governance which gave clues as to how they may have been listed as blacksmiths.
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I've just read the Wiki article on City of London livery companies. 4 routes to admittance, one being patrimony (possibly earlier Davis generations had been London blacksmiths?). Freemen members of the companies could advance to liverymen. The latter were electors. Liverymen retained their parliamentary franchise after 1832 Great Reform Act as an ancient right of boroughs, as allowed in the Act. Likewise the borough of Preston claimed ancient right during discussions about 1832 Reform Act.