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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Scott_M on Friday 03 May 19 07:16 BST (UK)
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Guys, I have another posting of the family Benjamin Morris & Sarah Caddish (Kadysz) which breaks further into their family originally from Poland (Or were married in Lomza, Poland)
I am very interested in there son Harry Morris a relation to myself. This is a breakaway posting that I feel merits to be placed in this Lancashire forum area given what I believe Harry has spent some reasonable time in this district
I am very interested in Harry Morris (son to Benjamin & Sarah) and he is listed as married in the 1939 England & Wales Register to what looks like Ethel nee Masono.. I wonder where they got married and what year .. Given Ethel is only abt 21 at this stage I would suspect marriage is possibly abt 1936 - 1939 ish
Ethel Masono is shown to be born in 21 November 1908 - The register view has someone writing over the name Ethel Morris suggesting that the surname for Ethel is Masono ..
In 1939 they are listed in the England & Wales Register at 32 Welbeck Grove, Salford, Lancashire...
Harrys profession is Film Master Traveller Travelling... Not quite sure what is involved here but an interesting profession ? welcome any support on this if anyone can comment..
As Harry was born on 12th September 1886 he is a good bit older than his wife..
I would love to understand if there is any other info on Harry and if in fact they had any children ..
Thank you for any help
regards
Scott
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Any alteration to Ethels surname of Morris indicates a later marriage for her not her maiden name, there should be a date to the left hand side of the entry as to when the name was changed on the register
I suggest that this is what it relates to
Marriages Dec qtr 1945
Sol Mason
Ethel Morris (Spouse Mason)
Salford 8d 1388
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3 Nov 1945
Debra :)
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tree owner might have info on the Kadysz family from Lomza ??
https://gw.geneanet.org/mlomagno?n=kadysz&oc=&p=fajgla
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If you look at the original entry the O you mention in MasonO is not part of her surname
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Assuming Ethel WAS actually married to Harry Morris, AND is not committing bigamy in 1945
There is this death
Deaths Sep 1940 (>99%)
Morris Harry 53 Manchester 8d 146
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Given Ethel is only abt 21 at this stage
Go straight to the math naughty corner! ;D
Debra :)
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Sol's probate in 1962 names Ethel as his widow. There is a child born in 1945 Salford reg dist. I won't mention names as they are hopefully still living
The 1939 information could be wrong and it should have S against Ethel.
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Deleted, getting confused with surnames ;D
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Possible marriage Salford 1932
Harry Morris
Ethel Cohen
They appear to be with a Cohen family c 1939
Cathy
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Given Ethel is only abt 21 at this stage
Go straight to the math naughty corner! ;D
Debra :)
Yip back to school for me ::)
Thanks for correcting my bad arithmetic Debra
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Possible marriage Salford 1932
Harry Morris
Ethel Cohen
They appear to be with a Cohen family c 1939
Cathy
A very good option and good logic will check out thank u very much
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Any alteration to Ethels surname of Morris indicates a later marriage for her not her maiden name, there should be a date to the left hand side of the entry as to when the name was changed on the register
I suggest that this is what it relates to
Marriages Dec qtr 1945
Sol Mason
Ethel Morris (Spouse Mason)
Salford 8d 1388
Thank u Rosie
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If you look at the original entry the O you mention in MasonO is not part of her surname
Yes I can see that good call out .. thanks again
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tree owner might have info on the Kadysz family from Lomza ??
https://gw.geneanet.org/mlomagno?n=kadysz&oc=&p=fajgla
Thanks for sharing this detail
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Sol's probate in 1962 names Ethel as his widow. There is a child born in 1945 Salford reg dist. I won't mention names as they are hopefully still living
The 1939 information could be wrong and it should have S against Ethel.
Hi Rosie what do you mean in this comment regards the S .... Thanks for all your support
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I wondered if anyone had a take on Harry’s occupation as I am unfamiliar with the description .. I am guessing that Harry travelled and may have shown movies where ever he travelled to ? Does anyone recognise this description .. it’s a new one to me ....thanks
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Sol's probate in 1962 names Ethel as his widow. There is a child born in 1945 Salford reg dist. I won't mention names as they are hopefully still living
The 1939 information could be wrong and it should have S against Ethel.
Hi Rosie what do you mean in this comment regards the S .... Thanks for all your support
I was referring to S for 'Single' but as a marriage has now been found it no longer applies
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I wondered if anyone had a take on Harry’s occupation as I am unfamiliar with the description .. I am guessing that Harry travelled and may have shown movies where ever he travelled to ? Does anyone recognise this description .. it’s a new one to me ....thanks
Perhaps you should tell us what the register entry says his occupation is ;D
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Hi Rosie thanks.. it is listed in the opening post but it is a bit lost in a long winded detail..
What is listed in the 1939 register
Harrys profession is Film Master Traveller Travelling
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I don't think the 2nd word is master. I wondered whether he worked for a company that distributed films to cinemas etc on loan for a fee
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I don't think the 2nd word is master. I wondered whether he worked for a company that distributed films to cinemas etc on loan for a fee
I agree after looking at it closely ...could it be Film writer
Will upload a snap shot of this detail in due course
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See attached Occupation description .. I suspect it could read Film Writer Traveller Travelling
I struggle to find any detail for such a job description back in the 1939 era
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how about Renter.
As in, the man who travelled around with the films for the picture theatres to rent
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I wondered whether he worked for a company that distributed films to cinemas etc on loan for a fee
how about Renter.
As in, the man who travelled around with the films for the picture theatres to rent
Following up on that I think the word might perhaps be 'renters' which would make him a Film renters traveller, i.e. someone who worked as a travelling agent for a film rental company?
The word isn't master or writer.
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Dictionary of Occupational Terms
Film Renter
film hiring agent ; film renter
acquires, by purchase or arrangement, right to hire a cinematograph proprietor's film; arranges trade shows of new films (sometimes done by producer (880) (q.v.)); lets films on hire; agrees terms, conditions and itinerary.
http://doot.spub.co.uk/idx.php?letter=F
A quick search of contemporary newspapers reveals many references to film renters.
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That is what I was trying to say in reply 20 but was not able to post without contravening 1939 look up regulations ;D
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Hi Rosie, Thank you again.. After looking again I have to agree with your eye for detail and I would say it is a match on your Transcription... Eagle eyes u are..
Thank you sincerely and it is all of value..
Best regards
Scott
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Dictionary of Occupational Terms
Film Renter
film hiring agent ; film renter
acquires, by purchase or arrangement, right to hire a cinematograph proprietor's film; arranges trade shows of new films (sometimes done by producer (880) (q.v.)); lets films on hire; agrees terms, conditions and itinerary.
http://doot.spub.co.uk/idx.php?letter=F
A quick search of contemporary newspapers reveals many references to film renters.
Great Link by the way on occupations .. Thank u
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An update on Harry
Confirmed that Harry married Ethel Cohen in 1932
Listed in marriage cert that he was a widower age 45 and Ethel was a spinster age 23
I also confirm he died in 1940 in the Royal infirmary in Manchester
Confirming his profession as listed throughout as a Film Renter traveller..
Interesting I picked up his brother Lazarus Morris death cert from 1961 and he was listed as a profession as Manager Film Distributors .. Informant of Lazarus was his Niece J.N. Seal.. I wonder if the brothers had worked together .. Lazarus was known as Leslie
Would be grateful for any further assistance as to potential previous marriage for Harry Morris that was before 1932
Note - It may be possible that Harry Morris covered a little time in Wakefield prison under the Bastardy Law .. This is a fair possible Committed offence in Sheffield and listed as a Tailor .. He had been previously listed in census as a Tailors apprentice and was living in Sheffield at abt this time .. Is there any way to get further information from a register from a prison?
Thanks guys
Regards
Scott
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Can anyone help narrow down another marriage ?
In the GRO uk site for indexes is there a way to check an index for marriage ? I use help from ancestry but really would be keen to understand the GRO site better if a way of checking is available? Looking for an index that lists both couples names... not so user friendly or maybe my understanding is not so good and there is a smarter way to navigate index via ancestry ? Any advice would be very welcome ..
I am looking for another marriage of Harry Morris based on the marriage cert for Harry Morris and Ethel Cohen .. Harry is mentioned as a widower in the 1932 cert ...Jewish wedding
He has been a traveller listed as a film renter... his brother Lazarus Morris who died in Cardiff 1961 is listed as a film distributor .. I would suspect Harry would have seen a Jewish wedding consistent with his second marriage .. Harry’s father is Benjamin Morris .... Harry born in 1886 Cheltenham ..
Thanks team
Regards
Scott Morland
Nz
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Another throw of the dice.
I have narrowed Harry down with a lot of help with this forum that I am very grateful for.
I suspect that I am directly related to Harry for specific reasons. DNA has been a main reason as I have identified without doubt to his siblings with myself and other family members of mine solid link to three of Harrys sisters descendants .. This was a fantastic link up and helping me establish the Morris family that Harry identifies to.
Previous posts of his marriage to Ethel in 1932 and having that marriage cert is of great value. Noting that he is a widower in that marriage, I am very keen to identify any other marriage for Harry and have to say I am stumped at this moment.
Harry Morris was born on 12 September 1886 to Sarah Kadish (Kadysz), age 25, and Benjamin Benas (Hebrew name) Morris (Mendel (Mendelson)), age 24.
Birth - 12 Sep 1886 • Cheetham, Manchester, Lancashire, England
He married Ethel Cohen in 1932 in Salford, Lancashire. In 1939 he is living in Salford with Ethel and her parents Jane and Edward Cohen .. Noted as a Traveller / Film Renter
He died on 14 September 1940 in Manchester, Lancashire, at the age of 54.
It is possible that Harry was in Wakefield Prison in 1908 under the bastardy Law.. I wonder how you can see further info if at all of this record for confirming if this may have in fact been Harry? any advice guys.
As Harry was a traveller it may be that he could have been in Scotland at some moments in time. This is very possible at around the 1920 / 1921 period with the birth of my Gran. As he was a traveller this is a fit.
Specifically I am really trying to understand when he was married previously and asking again among the experienced Genealogists in among you of any help to home in on a vital clue I would be extremely grateful.
Fingers crossed
Thank you all for the support
Regards
Scott Morland
NZ
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Have you tried FreeBMD for a Marriage.
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/
This may help. Just click on search and away you go.
Carol
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Where have you found the information on Wakefield Prison
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Hi Rosie, nice to hear from you..
Its not a definite but a possible
Listed on Ancestry under the West Yorkshire Prison records (1801 - 1914) date of 28th Sept 1908 (Expiry of sentence)
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Have you tried FreeBMD for a Marriage.
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/
This may help. Just click on search and away you go.
Carol
Thanks Carol
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He was age 22 years -5ft 5 1/2 -Brown Hair. Place of birth Sheffield Religion Jew. Occ Tailor.
It was for Bastardy arrears and his sentence was 35 days or £9.6s.6d. He probably paid up ;D
I have lost track with him a bit, where was he in 1911. Does the census say he was single
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Hi Rosie. Thanks for the support. It is all maybes really.. Noted that he is described as birthplace of Sheffield but in fact he was actually born in Cheetham, Manchester..
In the 1911 Census I have struggled to find him but again a maybe? for the 1911 census there is a Harry Morris age 24 listed as a prisoner in Cheetham prison listed as a Hotel Worker .. another maybe only
If it was him and a big maybe then as he is single in 1911, his marriage to someone else would be between 1911 and 1931 as he marries Ethel Cohen in 1932 listed as Widdower
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Sorry for the delay, I keep looking at this but am not seeing anything we have missed.
It may be that you will have to wait until the 1921 census is released to confirm if he was married by then.
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Hi Rosie,
Yes A hard basket..
I am sure that he was in Scotland Aberdeen area about 1920/21 and with his profession as a Film Renter / Traveller not sure where this would have taken him over the UK and when this travelling started as a career .. Ifs and buts
I hear u on the 1921 census.. I think a lot of people are waiting now Rosie..
Thank you very much for all your help Rosie and a fair few others.. A great Forum site that I rate very highly.
Keep well
Best wishes
Scott
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This thread has been referred to in the thread at https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=819642.0 - rather than letting that one veer too far into Harry Morris, I'm replying here.
No-one has mentioned it yet, but I suggest you have a look at Lancashire BMD - http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Not all counties have a site like this, but where they do, they sometimes give you more information than the GRO does. This is especially true for marriages, where you get the spouse's full name and the place of marriage.
So I've just done a marriage search for Harry Morris in the years 1900-1932 (whole county), which produced 68 results in total. Of these, I thought 7 appeared to be in the Jewish faith: these include Harry's marriage in 1932 to Ethel Cohen, so there would be 6 earlier ones, any one of which could be his.
The information from this site should help you to look into possible children, using surname plus mother's maiden name - FreeBMD is probably the place to check first, but you might as well check Lancashire BMD too. And having the spouses' first names might also help you to find the death of his first wife.
One further thought - the number of marriages for a Harry Morris on that site suggests it wasn't a particularly uncommon name - and this was just Lancashire - so I'd be very cautious about assuming yours was one of the ones found in prison records unless you can find further evidence.
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Thank u Arthur certainly a better wed site with better flex much easier to identify a Jewish marriage.. Like yourself I pick out maybe 7 marriages.. Playing on ancestry now to see if this offers any further leads .. Good support ..Thank u again
Regards
Scott
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If you find a likely marriage and want to order a certificate, bear in mind that you can specify Harry's father's name as part of your application.
In this kind of case the fee you pay covers a search for a few years either side, and if they can't find an entry with the right father you'll get some or all of your money back. You'd need to check the GRO and Lancashire BMD/local registrar's sites for details - I think their policies may differ.
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Hi team, Harry Houdini is maybe a better name .. I share a marriage that has caught my eye.. I think the 4 marriage listings are the same marriage?
Now we know that Harry marries a second time in 1932 to Ethel Cohen -- Harry is a widower .. I found a possible death of Rebecca Levy in Leeds district on 1929 age 43 (born abt 1886) which is the same age as Harry at this stage
Asking for a little help here if there is some substance to what I am seeing.. anybody got any other links / leads that may help to firm up what I think I have ..
I may have to just snap up these certs .. which is fine .. I would just rather be a bit more confident..
I hope there is no copyright concern of my posting ..happy to remove if so..
Thanks team
Regards
Scott
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Yes, they look as though they're the same marriage. I think (but am not 100% certain) that local register office reference numbers are unique to a marriage, whereas with the GRO they apply to all the ones on a particular page.
If you apply for a certificate by post using the form on the Lancashire BMD site you can add qualifying information, such as a father's name (as I mentioned above), and in this case you might also add something to the effect that you're aware from the index that Eva might also have been known as Rebecca. I haven't been through the online order process here, but I suspect that too will give you the opportunity to add this kind of thing.
Incidentally, the GRO index supports the idea that Eva was the same person as Rebecca. Usually there are two marriages to a page/reference number, so 4 names, but in this case there are 5, with Eva and Rebecca both being shown as having a spouse's surname of Morris.
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His first wifes death should be under the surname Morris, not Levy. The GRO index does indicate that when she married she was known as Eva & Rebecca.
Have you noticed the possible child born to that couple in 1924.
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Hi Rosie, Thanks for coming in. To confirm I did snap up that Cert but it was not a hit..
There is another thread as it happens that crosses with this one. Harry had a couple of brothers that I was trying to understand more of however that thread crossed into Harry again
See below link that compliments this Thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=812410.0
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Just in summary from the previous post here are some of the leads that came about from the generous help offered.
Thanks to all involved.. There are a couple of others certs not listed that are withheld due to possible still living ..
I have ordered all these certs and will update accordingly when they arrive
Male Morris (Possible child to second marriage of Ethel nee Cohen)
Birth Certificate
Morris Research
Year 1932
Details withheld due to possible still living
Female Morris (possible child to second marriage of Ethel nee Cohen)
Birth Certificate
Morris Research
Year1934
Details withheld due to possible still living
Jane Nettie Morris (possible daughter of Harry)
Birth Certificate
Morris Research
Year 1916
Sept Cardiff 11a 852
Jane Nettie Morris (Suspected daughter to Harry Morris marriage to husband Monty Seal)
Montefiore Seal
Marriage Certificate
Morris Research
Year 1938
Sept
Cardiff 11a 1014
Harry Morris (Suspected marriage to first wife for Harry)
Bessie Sherman
Marriage Certificate
Morris Research
Year 1915
Jun Cardiff 11a 853
Bessie Morris (Nee Sherman) Possible death (Suspected death of first wife of Harry)
Morris Research
Year 1924
Mar Chester 8a 595
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Hi team,
Bessie Morris (Nee Sherman) - Suspected death of first wife of Harry
Morris Research
Year 1924
Mar Chester 8a 595
Age 33
see death cert attached
The above death was a possible death of Bessie nee Sherman wife of Harry Morris
This is a hard one as Harrys wife Bessie Sherman in the 1901 and 1911 census suggests that she is born in 1891 and the above death register was a fair option. It looks questionable.. The actual certificate shares that the person was named Bessie Beckinsale Morris. In opinion, it looks an unusual middle name. Bessie comes from a Jewish family as does her husband .. Her death record reveals that she was suffering from TB for 2 years.. Understanding that the Sherman family from Cardiff seemed a close nit family with strong evidence of this closeness, it seems puzzling if this was our Bessie that she seems to have been abandoned.. I can understand to a degree with Harry being a Film Renter / traveller living far afield within his profession and do know that he was placed in Glasgow start of 1920 in a placement that may have went on till abt 1924 (This is noted in newspaper clippings) The Asylum is in Cheshire which is just close to Northern Wales. We know that the family are stationed in the Cardiff region.. Surprising that this Bessie`s death cert looks to acknowledge a husband but missing his forename.. Again like she was abandoned .. How sad .. My question to others and I seek help here on this puzzle. Is this Bessie Sherman born abt 1891 the wife of Harry Morris. Help ?
I wish to thank sincerely Roots chat member McKha489 who has been magnificent in supporting me off line to establish greater info on Harry Morris. His marriage to Bessie, his daughter Jane Nettie Morris, and other details.. This as well as others supporting.. I really am so grateful team..
I post after this one a timeline shaping up for Harry Morris..
Hope further assistance is out there to confirm this Bessie Sherman death ..
Best Regards
Scott Morland
NZ
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Harry Morris
BIRTH 12 SEP 1886 • Cheetham, Manchester, Lancashire, England
DEATH 14 SEP 1940 • Royal Infirmary, Manchester, Lancashire, England
• 1886 - Born in Cheetham / Manchester son to Benjamin Morris & Sarah Nee Kadish (From Lomza, Poland)
• 1891 - with family living in Leeds – 48 Concord Street, Leeds
• 1901 - with parents in Sheffield an Apprentice Tailor – No 14 No 1 Solly Street, Sheffield
• 1908 – 25th August Harry possibly sentenced to 3 days imprisonment or payment of £9 bastardy arrears - right age, occupation at the time and religion. Wakefield Prison
• 1911 - Can’t find.
• 1915 - Married Bessie SHERMAN in Cardiff - Presume been there for at least a short while. Married in Registry office and profession at this moment in time is listed as Tailor
• 1916 – 8th August daughter Jean Nettie MORRIS is born, Harry listed as Traveller “Films” Looks like a new career has started for Harry. Birth registered by Bessie nee Sherman, family living at Beauchamp Street, Cardiff
• 1917 - October Harry is appointed to Midlands by THE FILM BUREAU (well known to exhibitors as he represented for some time BUTCHER’S FILM SERVICE) (W. Butcher & Sons) This is during WW1, available for appointment so presume Harry is not enlisted.
• 1920 - Jan 1st starts job in Glasgow with STOLL FILM COMPANY (having been ‘for many years the outside man here in South Wales for Messr’s Butcher’s Film Service).
• 1924 - December Returning to South Wales - Has been with FAMOUS LASKY previously with Butcher’s in Cardiff and Stolls in Glasgow.
• 1928 - September - leaves Cardiff to take up job with WARNERS in Manchester
• 1932 - 14 August Marries Esther COHEN age 23 (Harry aged 45)
• 1938 - Marriage of Jean Nettie MORRIS to Montefiore SEAL at Cardiff Synagogue. Jean is given away by her uncle. Lewis JACOBS (Husband to Adeline Sherman)
• 1939 - In Manchester with wife Esther and her parents. Is a Film Renter/Distributor
• 1940 - death of Harry in hospital Manchester
• 1945 - Esther remarries Solomon MASON
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Hi team, I wonder if there is a good search engine looking at Jewish cemeteries for Manchester. I am advised that Harry Morris is laid to rest in North Manchester. Could be Cheetham OR Salford
I am not familiar with the geographic aspects of Manchester.
Has anyone got access to a search function that may reveal Harry Morris who died on the 14 th September 1940 at the Royal Infirmary Hospital in Manchester.
Thankful for any further help
Regards
Scott
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Hi team,
Bessie Morris (Nee Sherman) - Suspected death of first wife of Harry
Morris Research
Year 1924
Mar Chester 8a 595
Age 33
see death cert attached
The above death was a possible death of Bessie nee Sherman wife of Harry Morris
This is a hard one as Harrys wife Bessie Sherman in the 1901 and 1911 census suggests that she is born in 1891 and the above death register was a fair option. It looks questionable.. The actual certificate shares that the person was named Bessie Beckinsale Morris. In opinion, it looks an unusual middle name. Bessie comes from a Jewish family as does her husband .. Her death record reveals that she was suffering from TB for 2 years.. Understanding that the Sherman family from Cardiff seemed a close nit family with strong evidence of this closeness, it seems puzzling if this was our Bessie that she seems to have been abandoned.. I can understand to a degree with Harry being a Film Renter / traveller living far afield within his profession and do know that he was placed in Glasgow start of 1920 in a placement that may have went on till abt 1924 (This is noted in newspaper clippings) The Asylum is in Cheshire which is just close to Northern Wales. We know that the family are stationed in the Cardiff region.. Surprising that this Bessie`s death cert looks to acknowledge a husband but missing his forename.. Again like she was abandoned .. How sad .. My question to others and I seek help here on this puzzle. Is this Bessie Sherman born abt 1891 the wife of Harry Morris. Help ?
I wish to thank sincerely Roots chat member McKha489 who has been magnificent in supporting me off line to establish greater info on Harry Morris. His marriage to Bessie, his daughter Jane Nettie Morris, and other details.. This as well as others supporting.. I really am so grateful team..
I post after this one a timeline shaping up for Harry Morris..
Hope further assistance is out there to confirm this Bessie Sherman death ..
Best Regards
Scott Morland
NZ
Just revisiting this piece of history.. Sadly Bessie died in the Gorbals in Glasgow on the 8th March 1921, Apsley Place, Gorbals, Glasgow
Sadly it looks like Bessie was caught with the flu epidemic of this time in history and developed pneumonia.
Bessie is laid to rest in the Jewish Cemetery in Glasgow, Sandymount Cemetery