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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Yvonne Donnellon on Saturday 04 May 19 11:31 BST (UK)

Title: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Saturday 04 May 19 11:31 BST (UK)
I hope you don't mind me asking for help, I'm at my wit's end with this research, right now it looks like my Great Grandfather just disappeared off the face of the earth!

As the time he disappeared was during or just before WW1, I'm exploring if he signed up. I have attached a record which could be him. The man I'm looking for lived in Mann St, Bootle North Liverpool (there is another family in Alt Road,Toxteth south Liverpool, whom I don't think I am related to).

So, the help I need to identify the family this soldier came from? Does anyone have access to any other military databases?  What records can I expect to find which will help identify him?

My James was born in Shrule, Ireland 1871, was still in Ireland in 1901 but had moved to Liverpool by 1906 as the next record I have is his marriage certificate when he married Catherine McDonough in 1906. They had at least 2 children but unfortunately every document I have has a different spelling of the surname Donnellon (even the attached record!) so I don't think I have the complete picture yet.

I have a census record which seems to suggest Catherine was a widow by 1911 but there is mistakes in that too. She was definitely a widow by 1926 when she re-married to James Grant.

Please help me find my Great Grandfather!

Thanks in advance x
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: carol8353 on Saturday 04 May 19 11:50 BST (UK)
The soldier below died in Ypres in 1915.

Sapper
DONNELLAN, JAMES
Service Number 15726

Died 09/08/1915

12th Field Coy.
Royal Engineers

Born in Ennis Co Clare Enlisted in Inch.
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: normamac on Saturday 04 May 19 12:12 BST (UK)
The claimant on the above soldier .
His Father  John Donnellan
Cragragower,
Ennis.

Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Saturday 04 May 19 12:14 BST (UK)
Thank you Carol and normamac that's definitely not my relative, back to the starting line then! :-(
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Milliepede on Saturday 04 May 19 16:22 BST (UK)
Quote
I have a census record which seems to suggest Catherine was a widow by 1911 but there is mistakes in that too. She was definitely a widow by 1926 when she re-married to James Grant.

When you say "seems to suggest" do you mean because she is on her own with no husband?

Has she left her marital status blank?

Did she remarry in Liverpool.
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Milliepede on Saturday 04 May 19 16:27 BST (UK)
This might be wrong but there is a tree with a 1906 marriage to the lady you suggest but it has James born 1885 Liverpool not 1871 Ireland  :-\

Do you have the marriage confirming it was your James?

It also has a Donnellon child born in 1917.
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: carol8353 on Saturday 04 May 19 16:41 BST (UK)
She marries James Grant as O'Donnellon,yet another spelling of the surname!

Marriages Dec 1926
 
Grant    James    to O'Donnellon    W. Derby    8b   803    
O'Donnellon    Catherine  to    Grant    W. Derby    8b   803    

She might have said she was a widow,but it doesn't mean she actually was!
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: carol8353 on Saturday 04 May 19 17:15 BST (UK)
So this is the Catherine you mean in 1911?

Where are her children though?

At 27 Mann St Bootle, Bootle cum Linacre,

Kate   Donolon   Head   Widow 26      b Ireland
Peter   Pane     Boarder   Single 25      Labourer Dock   b Ireland
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Saturday 04 May 19 17:29 BST (UK)
 Yes, 27 Mann street, Kate's age and years of marriage fits, plus she had both my aunt Julia and my grandfather John before 1911, I'm assuming her first born died. But the summary page is wrong it say John and Kate was born in Liverpool. not Ireland
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Saturday 04 May 19 17:30 BST (UK)
the detail
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Finley 1 on Saturday 04 May 19 17:37 BST (UK)
Should you put this on the Irish page???   

I know how hard it is to research the Irish side of a family... so maybe they can help more?

xin
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: carol8353 on Saturday 04 May 19 17:38 BST (UK)
But they're living in Liverpool Xinia
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Saturday 04 May 19 17:44 BST (UK)
So the plot thickens, as previously mentioned, there was another child in 1917, which I finally got a copy of the birth certificate this week  ::)


Copyright image removed
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Saturday 04 May 19 17:54 BST (UK)
This is the wedding cert, now my Great Grand daddy lied about his age, but I have 8 DNA matches which confirm it's him and 2 DNA matches to Catherine. Also note, Sherian Place, Mann St and Emley St are all adjacent to each other, and when these roads were destroyed in WW2, my family moved straight back into the estate they built to replace them. Not a fans of change, my lot!

If he abandoned her, rather than dying, how on earth do I ever find what happened to him?

copyright image removed
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Finley 1 on Saturday 04 May 19 21:07 BST (UK)
OOPs   sorry

oh dear .. dafter by the day


xin
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Milliepede on Saturday 04 May 19 21:48 BST (UK)
Oh no father named on the birth certificate either and I see what you mean about census being confusing, she can't be a wife and widow at the same time  :-\

Plus as Carol mentioned where are her children born pre 1911?
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Saturday 04 May 19 22:19 BST (UK)
Oh no father named on the birth certificate either and I see what you mean about census being confusing, she can't be a wife and widow at the same time  :-\

Plus as Carol mentioned where are her children born pre 1911?

I think the census taker was a bit sloppy and it was only spotted later that she stated she was a widow, so the record was amended to make her the head of the household. However, where are her two children who would both have been under two at the time? Is it possible they were with another  family member as Kate would have had to go out to work now she was the main bread winner?

My emotions are all over the place with this, on one hand I'm worried he deserted her but I also know Poly-cystic Kidney disease  runs rife (still does) in my family could have been the cause of an early death. Yet, I have tried for months now to find a death record without any success either in Liverpool or in Ireland!?
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: carol8353 on Saturday 04 May 19 22:47 BST (UK)
What an awful surname to research,it changes every time it is written down.
I  notice from the marriage cert that he couldn't sign his name,so he probably couldn't read either,therefore he wouldn't know how his name should or was spelt.

I think she had separated from James by the time Catherine was born,otherwise she swould have named him as the baby's father.

The 1911 census was the first one totally filled in by the householder,so she would have done that herself.She may have told a few white lies to cover herself though.

Who was Peter Pane,her boyfriend,or just an innocent lodger?

I think this one will run and run.

Maybe someone else will come on board tomorrow with more ideas.

Carol
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Saturday 04 May 19 22:59 BST (UK)
What an awful surname to research,it changes every time it is written down.
I  notice from the marriage cert that he couldn't sign his name,so he probably couldn't read either,therefore he wouldn't know how his name should or was spelt.

I think she had separated from James by the time Catherine was born,otherwise she swould have named him as the baby's father.

The 1911 census was the first one totally filled in by the householder,so she would have done that herself.She may have told a few white lies to cover herself though.

Who was Peter Pane,her boyfriend,or just an innocent lodger?

I think this one will run and run.

Maybe someone else will come on board tomorrow with more ideas.

Carol

Tell me about it! Without DNA testing I would never have worked out where in Ireland we came from. I don't think Kate could read or write either.  Carol, I was also wondering about the boarder, and I have only just noticed the witness at their marriage was also Payne (different spelling!)
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: carol8353 on Saturday 04 May 19 23:06 BST (UK)
What a PAYNE/PANE  ;D ;D ;D

Must admit I hadn't noticed that.
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 04 May 19 23:58 BST (UK)
Quote
My James was born in Shrule, Ireland 1871,

Have you an exact date of birth?

Because there is a James Donnellon b 14 Jun 1871 Dock Labourer (from the free to view part of the 1939)  at 247 City Road, Manchester.
There are also  two redacted entries in the household

Added ..there is a 1939 Manchester marriage to Lilian  Cunliffe. 

Possible death of this one, although age is way out

Deaths Mar 1946   (>99%)
Donnellon    James    66    Manchester    8d   349

The Family of the late JAMES DONNELLON Thank relatives, friends and neighbours for kind expressions of sympathy and beautiful floral tributes in their sad b
23 March 1946 - Manchester Evening News - Manchester, Lancashire

Address on that notice is 16 Pingot Avenue, Northenden
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 05 May 19 00:24 BST (UK)
Quote
My James was born in Shrule, Ireland 1871,

Have you an exact date of birth?

Because there is a James Donnellon b 14 Jun 1871 Dock Labourer (from the free to view part of the 1939)  at 247 City Road, Manchester.
There are also  two redacted entries in the household

Added ..there is a 1939 Manchester marriage to Lilian  Cunliffe. 

Possible death of this one, although age is way out

Deaths Mar 1946   (>99%)
Donnellon    James    66    Manchester    8d   349

The Family of the late JAMES DONNELLON Thank relatives, friends and neighbours for kind expressions of sympathy and beautiful floral tributes in their sad b
23 March 1946 - Manchester Evening News - Manchester, Lancashire

Address on that notice is 16 Pingot Avenue, Northenden

I have 8 sets of DNA matches back to this guy
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 05 May 19 00:32 BST (UK)
So April 9th 1871.
That’s a shame
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Milliepede on Sunday 05 May 19 11:05 BST (UK)
Quote
I don't think Kate could read or write either. 

It doesn't say "the mark of" on the marriage like it does with James which infers she could sign her name.
Plus as mentioned the 1911 census was completed by the householder in their own hand and she signed that albeit the surname is again spelled slightly differently to the entry.

I wonder what happened to the lodger and where he was circa 1916/17.

Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Milliepede on Sunday 05 May 19 11:15 BST (UK)
What about the other witness Ellen was she a sister to Catherine, maybe she had the children with her.

Julia born 1910 should be a decent one to search for but nope  :-\
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Milliepede on Sunday 05 May 19 11:51 BST (UK)
Struggling to find the births for the children. 

This is the closest I can get to Julia - do you think this is her?

Mar 1909 West Derby

Donnelly Julia Mothers maiden name McDouough
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Milliepede on Sunday 05 May 19 11:56 BST (UK)
Sep 1907 West Derby

Donnelly John Mothers maiden name McDonough

Now there was a missing 3rd child wasn't there, wonder if we can find him or her.

I know it doesn't help with what happened to James but background info.
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Milliepede on Sunday 05 May 19 12:02 BST (UK)
Mar 1911 West Derby

Donnelly James Mothers maiden name McDonough

I know all 3 are under Donnelly so really not sure.
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 05 May 19 12:17 BST (UK)
Well found Millie, I didn't have any luck myself,nor can  I see any of them in 1911.

I see that Catherine states that one of her children had died by 1911.

I'm just looking in Ireland to see if they are there.

Carol
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 05 May 19 12:18 BST (UK)
Mar 1911 West Derby

Donnelly James Mothers maiden name McDonough

I know all 3 are under Donnelly so really not sure.
Thank you so much, I have found and ordered James and John's birth certs from the online GRO but struggling to find Julia's (I have been working off her marriage cert) do you have the Vol and page numbers please?
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 05 May 19 12:26 BST (UK)
Using https://www.freebmd.org.uk/

Looks like this is the one.....

Births Mar 1909   (>99%)
DONNELLY    Julia        W. Derby    8b   370

Just checking with the GRO to make sure it has the right mmn.


Yep


   DONNELLY, JULIA       mmn MCDOUOUGH 
GRO Reference: 1909  M Quarter in WEST DERBY  Volume 08B  Page 370
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 05 May 19 12:29 BST (UK)
Found her, there is YET ANOTHER spelling mistake in the mother's name !!! :-)

Thank so much, I'll report back when I receive these XX
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 05 May 19 12:38 BST (UK)
Yvonne do you know that you can get a PDF of births up to 1918 sent to your computer for just £7,rather than the full price of £11 for the actual cert in the post?
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 05 May 19 12:46 BST (UK)
There's a Thomas too,unless I've missed Millie finding him?

I think he might have been the one who died.
Yes he died at 21 Emley Street aged 3 months on 10th Sept 1906.

Shows up in the Ford Cemetery Catholic burial registers.

DONNALLY, THOMAS       mmn MCDONOUGH 
GRO Reference: 1906  S Quarter in WEST DERBY  Volume 08B  Page 351
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 05 May 19 12:47 BST (UK)
Yes thank you x

Just recently discovered that, made my day! This can become quite an expensive "hobby" especially if you order the wrong persons certs as I did in the beginning. I'm getting better now  ;D
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 05 May 19 12:51 BST (UK)
Yes thank you x

Just recently discovered that, made my day! This can become quite an expensive "hobby" especially if you order the wrong persons certs as I did in the beginning. I'm getting better now  ;D

You can ask them to send a cert only if mum or dad is XXX

Mind you they can be quite pedantic about that,so don't give them too much info,especially if as yours the surname can be spelt differently on various different websites.

Note that Thomas's birth on the GRO site is spelt with an A. :o
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 05 May 19 12:54 BST (UK)
There's a Thomas too,unless I've missed Millie finding him?

I think he might have been the one who died.
Yes he died at 21 Emley Street aged 3 months on 10th Sept 1906.

Shows up in the Ford Cemetery Catholic burial registers.

DONNALLY, THOMAS       mmn MCDONOUGH 
GRO Reference: 1906  S Quarter in WEST DERBY  Volume 08B  Page 351

My god you are brilliant! That's my Great Great Great Grandfather's name! I wonder if he was a victim of the poly cystic kidney disease too?

My family move around in the same 3-4 streets for about 100 years!
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 05 May 19 14:48 BST (UK)
Is this the family in Dalgan Mayo in 1901?

Once again a different spelling,but it looks like the eunumerator filled this one in,as dad Thomas couldn't read.

Donlan   Thomas   60   Head, Farmer, widower,can't read
Donlan   James   29   Son   
Donlan   Julia   19      Daughter   
Donlan   Maggie   16  Daughter   
Donlan   Patrick   13   Son   
Donlan   Ellen   11   Daughter   
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: Yvonne Donnellon on Sunday 05 May 19 15:10 BST (UK)
Is this the family in Dalgan Mayo in 1901?

Once again a different spelling,but it looks like the eunumerator filled this one in,as dad Thomas couldn't read.

Donlan   Thomas   60   Head, Farmer, widower,can't read
Donlan   James   29   Son   
Donlan   Julia   19      Daughter   
Donlan   Maggie   16  Daughter   
Donlan   Patrick   13   Son   
Donlan   Ellen   11   Daughter

Yes, that the one! I have found the grandchildren of all these guys who are mostly living in the US now, a very special moment when I pulled all this together.

More news - I have found out what happened to Kate's son James and it's not good news. He died in a lunatic Asylum, Calderstones Hospital in Clitheroe, in  1945 aged 34.  He was on the 1939 register so clearly a long term patient.  I have had this guy in my shoebox for 2 years as any Donnellons in Ford cemetery are bound to be my relations but I had no idea who he was.

Two more spellings to add to the list, 1939 reg = Dunnellon and death reg = Donnellan

Is there an award for the most ways of spelling a surname?!
Title: Re: Possibly my Great Grandfather - Help please?
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 05 May 19 17:37 BST (UK)
Glad to hear that you have gradually found other family members,can't be long before you find James himself surely?  ::)

And no there isn't an award for having the most numbers of ways to spell a surname,but there might be one for spending the most money on certs to try and prove who your family were  8)

My maiden name was without a D in the middle (and my Carol is often spelt with an E at the end) but I have to look for both spellings when tracing my family........and that's only 2 options !!!

Carol