RootsChat.Com

Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: John41137 on Thursday 09 May 19 06:23 BST (UK)

Title: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: John41137 on Thursday 09 May 19 06:23 BST (UK)
Request to Roots Chat for assistance to locate the birth place of my 2nd great grandfather David WATKINS

Background:

My paternal grandmother was Annie Watkins, born in Box Hill Victoria in 1887. She married my paternal grandfather John McFarlane at Albury, NSW in 1904 and subsequently emigrated to Dunedin, NZ around 1910.

 Her father Samuel Watkins had also emigrated to NZ and died there in 1915.  According to his death certificate it states his parents were David Watkins and a Mary Ann Hutchinson. and that he was born in Victoria. However, there are no Victorian BDM records for this birth.  David Watkins is thought to have been a miner who emigrated to Australia from Wales to take part in the gold rush in the 1850s at Buninyong near Ballarat, Victoria.  However, there is no conclusive evidence to verify this.  The  outcome of research to date is outlined in an attachment.

Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 09 May 19 06:55 BST (UK)


Can you list all the information on the death document for Samuel WATKINS, died 1915.

"...Annie Watkins, born in Box Hill Victoria in 1887"

This birth certificate will have good information about her father Samuel....age, occupation, birthplace.
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: majm on Thursday 09 May 19 06:56 BST (UK)
Hi,

Welcome to RootsChat  :)

Some questions ...  :D   ... working back from the known ... :)

 :) from the NSW marriage cert for Annie WATKINS to John MCFARLANE/MACFARLANE, 1904, what information did Annie give about herself, and both her parents ... this is first hand information and likely to be reliable/capable of checking against other official records  :) Also, what denomination for that marriage, and who were the witnesses ... and as Annie was not yet 21, so who is recorded as giving consent for her to marry...   


NSW BDM 8437/1904 marriage indexed twice (McFarlane,  MacFarlane)


JM





 
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: majm on Thursday 09 May 19 07:18 BST (UK)


Can you list all the information on the death document for Samuel WATKINS, died 1915.

"...Annie Watkins, born in Box Hill Victoria in 1887"

This birth certificate will have good information about her father Samuel....age, occupation, birthplace.

Yes,  excellent suggestion,  I see the following from Vic BDM online index for births:

https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history

Annie WATKINS 1887  mother’s name as Annie MOTTRAM
Other WATKINS siblings also with same mother’s name on the index.
Vic bdm ref number : 8739 / 1887

JM
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: majm on Thursday 09 May 19 10:25 BST (UK)
Vic BDM online marriage index

Ann MOTTRAM and George SMITH, ref 3669/ 1868,

JM
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 09 May 19 12:34 BST (UK)


BDM VIC birth
10047 / 1890 WATKINS Ethel May
parents Saml / Annie MOTTERAM    @ Bridgewater

NSW BDM
3960/1908 WATKINS Ethel M marr. RAY George J       @ Albury
3961/1908 WATKINS Nellie    marr. SAWYER Allan J    @ Albury

Catholic Press 30 Apr 1908 p15
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/105169730?
...double wedding.......daughters of Samuel WATKINS of Albury.....best man Mr J SMITH.......

NZ BDM births to find for RAY, parents George James and Ethel May.

Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: Dundee on Thursday 09 May 19 14:48 BST (UK)
According to his death certificate it states his parents were David Watkins and a Mary Ann Hutchinson. and that he was born in Victoria.

Death certificates can be very unreliable, so this from your attachment is more relevant.

I was able to locate a marriage certificate (Victorian BDM ref 4216/1877) for Samuel which states that he married an Annie Smith in Maryborough in December 1877. Samuel gave his age as 22 at the time and his birth place as Buninyong Victoria. He listed his parents as David Watkness and Mary Ann Hutchinson. His location and occupation at the time of the marriage was Chinamans Flat, Farmer.

I will also add that he said his father David was a labourer.  Samuel and Annie were married by a Wesleyan minister.  Samuel signed his name confidently as what appears to be WATKNESS.  Annie made her mark. The witnesses are, I think, Alexander and Jane PANTON.

The 1881 birth certificate for Samuel and Annie's second child, Ellen, gives the same age and place of birth for Samuel and the informant was the child's grandmother, Mary Ann HUBBARD of Serpentine Creek.  As Annie gave her mother's name as Catherine when she married it seems likely that this person was Samuel's mother Mary Ann.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: John41137 on Friday 10 May 19 00:41 BST (UK)
A copy of Samuel Watkins Death Certificate is attached as a PDF file.  If this is not satisfactory I will type out key information.

I have ordered a copy of the Birth Certificate for Annie Watkins and also a copy of her marriage certificate to John McFarlane.

Thanks for your assistance.

Regards John
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: John41137 on Friday 10 May 19 05:07 BST (UK)
I have attached a PDF file containing the Marriage Certificate of Annie Watkins and John McFarlane

Regards

John
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: majm on Friday 10 May 19 10:11 BST (UK)
Hi there,

Have you searched for the surname as though it was (mis)-transcribed as  ATKIN,  ATKINS, WATHEN,  WATHENS, AKENS, AIKENS, and ... also have you searched for Mary Ann HUBBARD ...

Thank you for posting those certs.   I wonder if you have considered the alternative to NSW certs - NSW BDM has appointed three official transcribers,  and they offer an excellent service, the documents are not as expensive and are transcribed by people who are already skilled at deciphering the longhand on the documents. 

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html

I am still looking  :)


JM
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: John41137 on Saturday 11 May 19 02:48 BST (UK)
I have searched for Mary Ann Hubbard on VIC BDM.

Birth 1836-1860 there was one index 11162/1852
Marriages 1836-1880 there were two options: William Francis 3586/1862 and Michael McCallan 3144/1879.

I have not found Samuel as a twin brother to Ellen a child of Samuel Watkins and Annie Mottram.  I have Ellen born 1881 ref 2671/1881 and Samuel 1879 ref 2032/1879

I will pursue the name variations you suggest.
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 11 May 19 09:26 BST (UK)
Hi,
One David WATKINS not mentioned in your notes (attached) is the convict sentenced for 10 years in Tasmania.
He departed Tasmania for Melbourne in 1852, his sentence having been served.
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/

Sue
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: John41137 on Monday 13 May 19 02:42 BST (UK)
Hi Sue

Thanks for the lead about David Watkins a convict held in Tasmania until his discharge in 1852.

It is feasible that he could have moved from Melbourne to the gold fields around Ballarat at this  time and could be Samuel's father.  According to Samules marriage certificate he claims he was born in 1857.

I also note that there was a Mary Ann Hutchinson in Tasmania who also was a convict. It appears she stayed in Tasmania and died there.

John
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: John41137 on Monday 13 May 19 02:56 BST (UK)
I have tried the alternative surname spelling without success.

John
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: Dundee on Monday 13 May 19 03:34 BST (UK)
This may just be a coincidence and just wild speculation.....

Annie SMITH nee MOTTRAM had a brother named James who had children with an Ellen LANE.  Ellen's mother was a Mary Ann HUTCHINSON.

This Mary Ann was born in Melbourne in either 1839 or 1841 and married at Buninyong in 1855 to Thomas LANE.  Her stated age was 16 and Thomas was aged 33.  Mary Ann's baptism in 1841 has a birth year of 1841 but the news article states she was born in 1839.

A mention of the marriage here:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66041871

Thomas and Mary Ann had five children born in Buninyong between 1856 and 1865.  She remarried in 1894 to her widowed brother-in-law George KING and both were residents of Durham Lead.  The marriage certificate notes that she had been widowed in 1877 but I can't really see a suitable death registration for Thomas.

It is not impossible that Mary Ann had a relationship with a Mr HUBBARD between her two husbands. There is no evidence that this woman was Samuel WATKINS' mother but I wonder if Samuel was raised by her and had no memory of his biological mother.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: majm on Monday 13 May 19 03:44 BST (UK)
This baptism may be of  interest
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCX-3QS
it has Mary Ann's family name as HUTCHISON (so missing an 'n') and a date of birth of 5 May (but 1841 rather than 1839 as per the newspaper), I think this would be the baptism Debra mentions  :) 

JM
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 14 May 19 05:46 BST (UK)
Hi,
One David WATKINS not mentioned in your notes (attached) is the convict sentenced for 10 years in Tasmania.
He departed Tasmania for Melbourne in 1852, his sentence having been served.
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/

Sue

His sentence was 7 years but he didn't obtain his free cert until 1852.  There are only minor misdemeanors in his record and no mention of why he ended up serving over 20 years.

He was sentenced to three months in Melbourne in 1855 for larceny and was using the name David WATSON.  Two previous convictions 2 x two months.  His Vic. record states that his real name was David JOHNSON and he had a brother John in the colony.

https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/justice-crime-and-law/register-male-and-female-prisoners-1855-1947

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: John41137 on Tuesday 14 May 19 07:13 BST (UK)
Hi Debra
There is another scenario to that suggested in your post of 13 May re the mother of Samuel Watkins.
Sue brought to my attention a David Watkins who had served time in Tasmania as a convict .  He was released in 1852 and was put on a ship which was to land in Melbourne.  As the gold rush around Ballarat was underway it is feasible that he may have headed for Buninyong.

At that  time Mary Ann Hutchinson was aged 21 and unmarried until 1855.  As mentioned in my opening brief there is no BDM records for Samuel'a birth.  However, on his marriage to Annie Smith (Mottram) in 1877 (see attached file) he stated his age  was 22 (DOB 1855) born in Buninyong to David Watkins and Mary Ann Hutchinson.
It is possible that David ex Tas had a brief relationship with Mary Ann and she became pregnant with Samuel.
It assumes Thomas Lane accepted the situation and Samuel was brought up as part of the Lane family.

However, I note a Samuel was born to Mary Ann and Thomas in 1860 (ref 19609) which detracts somewhat from the above scenario.

John
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 14 May 19 08:14 BST (UK)
At that  time Mary Ann Hutchinson was aged 21 and unmarried until 1855. 

Mary Ann was born in either 1841 (baptism register) or 1839 (newspaper article) so in 1855 she was either 14 or 16.  The marriage record has her age as 16.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: majm on Tuesday 14 May 19 08:18 BST (UK)
Yes,

At that  time Mary Ann Hutchinson was aged 21 and unmarried until 1855. 

Mary Ann was born in either 1841 (baptism register) or 1839 (newspaper article) so in 1855 she was either 14 or 16.  The marriage record has her age as 16.

Debra  :)

   
This baptism may be of  interest
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCX-3QS
it has Mary Ann's family name as HUTCHISON (so missing an 'n') and a date of birth of 5 May (but 1841 rather than 1839 as per the newspaper), I think this would be the baptism Debra mentions  :) 

JM

JM
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: John41137 on Tuesday 14 May 19 22:10 BST (UK)
Hi Debra

My  apologies for making such a basic arithmetic error.

John
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 14 May 19 23:13 BST (UK)
I do note that Mary Anne HUTCHISON who married Thomas LANE seemed to have a connection to Brunswick, had some of her children's births registered there and, in fact she states she was born in Melbourne.

This information prompts me to add this news clip which I would otherwise have ignored as an extraordinary co-incidence of names and places , which perhaps it simply is :P

Missing in 1891 Thomas LANE. Ad placed by his step-son Thomas WATKINS of 17 Bishop Street Brunswick

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241557056

Sue

Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: Dundee on Wednesday 15 May 19 01:14 BST (UK)
I do note that Mary Anne HUTCHISON who married Thomas LANE seemed to have a connection to Brunswick, had some of her children's births registered there

The children are showing as all born in Buninyong (B'yong/Buni) in the online indexes, do you think that 'Buni' has been mistaken for Brunswick?

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 15 May 19 07:55 BST (UK)
Hi Debra,  ::)
 
I have used Ancestry instead of my own resource or the Victorian BMD online index.

I really should know better than to not double check.

Elizabeth, George and Samuel are recorded on Ancestry's indexing as being born in Brunswick.

My own resource set shows all the birth places as abbreviations for Buninyong

Sue
Title: Re: Birth Place of David WATKINS
Post by: John41137 on Friday 17 May 19 04:48 BST (UK)
To Debra, Sue and the other people who made contributions to this subject.

Thank you for your efforts to resolve this question.

Unfortunately there is no evidence to date to verify the parents listed on the marriage certificate for Samuel Watkins.

I will not be taking this matter any further for the immediate future.

John