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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Monaghan => Topic started by: Suemagoo on Thursday 09 May 19 18:55 BST (UK)
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Everyone that has helped me before has been amazing and very kind so I am asking again for some guidance regarding my 2x GG Thomas Graham and Elizabeth Martin. Fact, Thomas Graham was a labourer and not a farmer. Every marriage record for his children indicates "labour". I understand from that he did not have a trade and he did not farm his own land. On Thomas Graham and Elizabeth Martin's marriage record of 1842, he at the time of marriage he is living in Tullygony and Elizabeth is in Rafeenan.
Griffiths Valuation which I believe was recorded around 1860's shows a Thomas Graham in Tullygony, renting a house only no land. In Rafeenan there is a Robert Graham as well renting a house, no land. Following the family until when Thomas and Elizabeth died, one in 1882 and the other in 1892 they are living in Rafeenan. Two of their children Robert, born in 1843 and his sister Jane and her son also lived in Rafeenan. My question is could they have rented land somewhere else to where they were living either in Tullygony or Rafeenan ? I searched all the Thomas Grahams for Co. Monaghan and found 3 that rented land only. Not sure how far the 3 places are to Tullygony or Rafeenan, but the are the following,
Cornafaghy- Thomas Graham 9 acres
Mullandavagh, Thomas 2 acres
Clonnagore, Thomas plot #7 1 acre and plot#8 3 acres.
I read an article about a local Doctor and his rounds and in one case a brother and sister rented a house, but their field was over a mile away. This surprised me as I was not aware of that!! This is what got me thinking and therefore my request for some advice.
I'm just trying to get a picture of what my 2x GG Thomas Graham did and the only other thing I can think of is maybe he worked harvesting flax as I see a name of the Flax growers list for a Thomas Graham in Tedavnet but not sure if it's my 2xGG. My 2x GG was born in 1801 Magherarney.
If somebody has any thoughts or ideas or suggestions, I will be most grateful.
Thank you very much!!
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Everyone that has helped me before has been amazing and very kind so I am asking again for some guidance regarding my 2x GG Thomas Graham and Elizabeth Martin. Fact, Thomas Graham was a labourer and not a farmer. Every marriage record for his children indicates "labour". I understand from that he did not have a trade and he did not farm his own land. On Thomas Graham and Elizabeth Martin's marriage record of 1842, he at the time of marriage he is living in Tullygony and Elizabeth is in Rafeenan.
Griffiths Valuation which I believe was recorded around 1860's shows a Thomas Graham in Tullygony, renting a house only no land. In Rafeenan there is a Robert Graham as well renting a house, no land. Following the family until when Thomas and Elizabeth died, one in 1882 and the other in 1892 they are living in Rafeenan.
I'm just trying to get a picture of what my 2x GG Thomas Graham did and the only other thing I can think of is maybe he worked harvesting flax as I see a name of the Flax growers list for a Thomas Graham in Tedavnet but not sure if it's my 2xGG. My 2x GG was born in 1801 Magherarney.
If somebody has any thoughts or ideas or suggestions, I will be most grateful.
Thank you very much!!
In Nov 1868 when Elizabeth Jane was born weren't they in Killymarran Glebe ??
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I have copies of the church records from PRONI-Belfast for the children as follows:
Thomas and Elizabeth Martin merry 1842
Robert Graham- 28 October 1843- Tullygoney
Thomas Graham-7 May 1846- Tullygony- source Familysearch.org
Andrew Graham- 22 March 1849- illegible
Jane Graham-20 January 1857-Tullygony
William Graham-22 January 1859- abode is blank
James Graham-14 March 1861- Rafeenan (my Great Grandfather)
Thomas Graham- 15 March 1863-Rafeenan
Elizabeth Jane Graham-13 November 1868- parents are Thomas Graham and Eliza THOMAS
Ann Graham-06 January 1866- Rafeenan but parents as above per family search.org
There are gaps in the years of the above births, however Elizabeth Martin was born around 1822’s and Thomas Graham 1801 so big age difference. Their marriage record shows witness Andrew Martin and Thomas Morrow. Can’t find connection to Morrow but Andrew Martin was Elizabeth’s fathers name. Burial records for Thomas Graham, 80 years 5 January 1882-Rafeenan and Elizabeth, 70 years, 21 June 1892- Rafeenan.
This is what I have so far.
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Do you have the film?
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No film. I paid for photocopies of the church records from PRONI-Belfast.
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Film # for Elizabeth Jane Graham is GS Film#101177 index project Baruch #CO1408-1
Ann Graham is GS Film#101122 index project batch C700128.
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Griffith Valuation Tullygony townland.
3a Patrick McArce, house, offices and 13 acres of land.
3b Thomas Graham rented a house from Patrick McArce
3c Mary Murragh rented house from Patrick McArce.
Catherine McArce at 4 was also subletting houses.
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Yes that is my Thomas Graham at 3b renting a house but my query is about if and where he may have leased land near Tullygony. Thank you for helping me.
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Why as he was a labourer do you think he rented land anywhere? If he had the Certs would say he was a farmer.
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Sorry...was watching the football!! ;D Apologies for getting mother wrong for that one!
Sarah Graham Tullygony married in 1830, can I ask are there any details for Parents please?
All I have is 26.3 1830 Sarah Graham Tullygony married Robert Hall Tullygony
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Union of Monaghan, County Monaghan
Dated December 18, 1860
Griffith's
Tullygony Townland, Tedavnet Parish
Parcel 3b
Thomas Graham, house from Patick McAree
none of the three other places you mention are in the same parish
https://www.johngrenham.com/c_parish/c_parish_main.php?civilparishid=1970&civilparish=Tedavnet&county=Monaghan
for maps of each townland, separately
https://www.townlands.ie/en/monaghan/monaghan/tehallan/tehallan/tullygony/
and you can use google maps to see where they are in relation to each other. the three you mentioned are too far from Tullygony for it to be the same man.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nrt/
this only works if the current names aren't too different from the 1860s names.
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Why as he was a labourer do you think he rented land anywhere? If he had the Certs would say he was a farmer.
I agree with Sinann. You may have come to the wrong conclusion about your Thomas.
Not specific to this area, but if he was a "labourer" it does not follow that he worked his own (or rented) land.
A labourer would have undertaken any work in the district - you can possibly guess at what that may have been by looking at the industry in the area. If the area was predominantly farming then it is likely he would have been a farm labourer, possibly getting paid by the day for work he did. No work = no pay.
People would generally have walked to their jobs so whatever he did would have been reasonably close to his home.
I hope those assumptions are not too far off. ;)
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Why as he was a labourer do you think he rented land anywhere? If he had the Certs would say he was a farmer.
Or landholder. One of my ancestors who had a small farm was 'landholder' on some certificates.
A member of a family of ag. labs in England managed to acquire 4 acres to farm on his own account and was therefore a farmer on a census return. Holding land was something to be proud of.
Thomas Graham may have been an agricultural or general labourer. He may have gone over to Britain each year to work, as many Irishmen did.
I agree with what Ruskie has written.
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Why as he was a labourer do you think he rented land anywhere? If he had the Certs would say he was a farmer.
Or landholder. One of my ancestors who had a small farm was 'landholder' on some certificates.
A member of a family of ag. labs in England managed to acquire 4 acres to farm on his own account and was therefore a farmer on a census return. Holding land was something to be proud of.
Thomas Graham may have been an agricultural or general labourer. He may have gone over to Britain each year to work, as many Irishmen did.
I did not consider that. :)
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So many Irishmen went to work as farm labourers in Britain, 'harvest-special' trains operated. My GF was one, returning to Ireland for winter and at other times when family circumstances required. Travel was cheap & efficient. Some moved around in groups around a county or counties, staying in lodging-houses. I wondered why GF's father had been informant at birth registration of his godson & nephew-by-marriage, son of a co-tenant; a possible explanation is that the father was working away when the baby was born.
Then there were all the Irish 'navvies' who helped to build Victorian Britain.
Going to Britain to earn supplementary income was a tradition throughout 19thC. Like Eastern Europeans in 21stC. Some Eastern Europeans do work similar to what Irish did then, although there's not the same demand for farm labourers.
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My only information on Thomas Graham is on his marriage record for 1842 he is living in Tullygony. His burial record advises he was 80 years old when he died in 1882, so 1802 would be a guess for birth. Griffiths valuation gives me a Thomas Graham renting a house only in Tullygony. When I made inquiries about birth records for the Tullygony and or Rafeenan, anything on line advises the records only start at 1822 so where you see the early 1800’s I wish I could access. All the above info as mentioned I got from PRONI or on line. His wife Elizabeth on the marriage record says Rafeenan is where she was living in 1842. They spent their lives in these areas according to marriage, children’s birth records and their burial records. Like I said that’s all I got. May I please ask where you get the information you provided? So frustrating living in Canad🥴🥴🥴
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Hey everyone thank you so much! Having read all your thoughts I believe I did get off track regarding Thomas. I think the area of Rafeenan and Tullygony was agriculture so it would make sense if he was a farm labourer. So to fully understand he would work on somebody’s farm get paid and then rented a small house on somebody else’s land.
Maybe also the gaps in the years between his children was when he travelled abroad to find work, either in other parts of Ireland or even England. This is exactly the help I was looking for and I always learn something after people respond. I don’ feel as frustrated as I did before requesting help.
Thank you all so much. Very kind all of you for replying to my request.
Cheers👍🇨🇦☘️
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May I please ask where you get the information you provided? So frustrating living in Canad
I think I speak for most if not all of us when I say you just pick it up, starting with history lessons in school to watching TV documentaries, reading, researching your own family and spending way too much time here on RootsChat. If I had to research a family in the 1860s in Canada I wouldn't have a clue how they lived but I bet you or the people on the Canada board could help me out.
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Sinann, reply #17 certainly speaks for me.
I have the family stories, to which I didn't pay a great deal of attention at the time, and overheard conversations between relatives. 19thC Irish history was one of my topics in school history lessons in England and I built on that by reading. I've learned a lot of things on RootsChat. I've discovered information and sources online which weren't widely available decades ago e.g. Irish Petty Sessions, local newspapers.
Family history is in the context of local history and the history of the country. With Irish ancestors you always have to consider Britain. If Irish people couldn't make a proper living at home, the obvious place to go was Britain. It was internal migration, not emigration. It was like a Welsh or Scottish person going to England or an English person going to Scotland. If agriculture or industry in Britain experienced a slump, employment opportunities for Irish people were affected. They were more likely to consider emigration during those periods.
The Great Famine in 1840s affected agriculture and land tenure. Pre-Famine, plots were divided between sons. They married fairly young. Land-holdings got smaller with each generation. Post-Famine, the practice was for one son to succeed his father; individual land-holdings were larger than before; men married later.
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My only information on Thomas Graham is on his marriage record for 1842 he is living in Tullygony. His burial record advises he was 80 years old when he died in 1882, so 1802 would be a guess for birth. Griffiths valuation gives me a Thomas Graham renting a house only in Tullygony. When I made inquiries about birth records for the Tullygony and or Rafeenan, anything on line advises the records only start at 1822 so where you see the early 1800’s I wish I could access.
Age at death should be regarded as a guide only, especially if the person was old. Many Irish people of Thomas Graham's era had only a vague idea of their age. E.g. one of my ancestors claimed to be 70 on 1901 census so estimated birth year was 1830; she married in 1840 so can't have been born in 1830. Recorded age at death could be a decade out if the person was very old. At least with a woman one can estimate age based on when her children were born.
An early record was Irish Flax Growers' List aka Spinning Wheel List. Another was Tithe Applotments. Neither was as extensive as Griffith Valuation. None of my ancestors are in either of the first 2 sources.
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Interesting insights Maiden Stone. :)
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There are gaps in the years of the above births, however Elizabeth Martin was born around 1822’s and Thomas Graham 1801 so big age difference. Their marriage record shows witness Andrew Martin and Thomas Morrow. Can’t find connection to Morrow but Andrew Martin was Elizabeth’s fathers name.
Have you checked to see if there are gaps in baptism register?
Thomas Morrow may have been related to Mary Murragh, who, like Thomas Graham, rented a house from Patrick McArce.
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OK thanks, wasn't sure if I had omitted to write down Sarah and Robert's parent's names.
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Maiden Stone just like you said I have learned more about Irish history in your last message then anywhere else. In Canada we don’t learn anything about Ireland so this is exactly what I needed. I have struggled for 5 years trying to find birth, marriage, death dates, where people are buried etc. Now I am at the stage where I want to understand what life my ancestors actually led. Siann, Ruskie and Hallmark, all of you have been great offering help, suggestions and I thank you.
Maiden Stone there is a gap between the children. 3 were born in 1843(year after marriage of 1842), 1846,1849 then gap to 1857,1859 then finally 1861 and 1863. Maybe the gap Thomas was away working, but all children were born either Tullygony at the beginning or Rafeenan near the end and as previously mentioned burial records for Thomas and Elizabeth is Rafeenan.
Another interesting thing I discovered. On Thomas and Elizabeth marriage record it said Thomas Morrow was a witness. One of their sons Thomas Jr who married a Mary CARSON on 12 May 1870, their witness was a William Morrow? Can’t figure how Morrow and Mary Murrragh who rented next to Thomas and Elizabeth could be related?
This has been so great everyone again. You all have me so excited to keep going. Was so frustrated but not anymore. Amazing people!! THANKS👍🇨🇦
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It may be worth looking for births in the UK.
Work was seasonal so mostly only the men went but sometimes the whole family traveled over, perhaps as the children grew the older ones got work as well.
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It might be worth checking a few English censuses in case Thomas or other family members happened to be around at census time. :)
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Plenty of work around with the Ulster Canal being built a few 100meters from them, the new railway line from Monaghan to Armagh being built a few 100meters from them, bridge building, roads for mail coaches, etc...
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Wow, what you all suggest I would never have thought to check out let alone even know about. I am checking English census, birth records for the gap of 1849-1856 and Hallmark thank you for the information on the work that was being dong near their home!!!! I originally thought they must have been so poor and had nothing since they didn't appear to own land, but I know have a greater understanding. I am also trying to find some books I could get over here in Canada for Monaghan and in particular their region.
Hallmark, Ruskie and Sinann you are all great teachers!!!!!! Made my day. Back to research.
Cheers.