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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Dumbarton17 on Sunday 12 May 19 00:38 BST (UK)
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William Henderson, born Scotland 1846, emigrated from NZ to NSW Australia approx june 1891.
His wife Margaret returned to NZ in 1902 with members of the family.
she remarried in 1916 in NZ.
The 2nd marriage cert records Williams death in 1892, but we have been unable to find a death record in Australia or NZ to verify.
what really happened to William?
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Where have you already looked for the death/inquest/probate for your William HENDERSON? I am wondering if Harleyvale NSW is actually Hartley Vale, NSW ? In the 1890s there was mining for Shale etc in and around Hartley Vale, along Reedy Creek and up to Mt Victoria.
Re any missing death cert ... well, until around 1918 (ie after WWI) the NSW BDM admin did not have a follow up trigger for confirming that they had all the paperwork. So, particularly in the non urban areas, where the Deputy Registrars were part time positions, it was entirely possible for a Police officer to be informed of a sudden/unexplained death and for the police to then inform the Police Magistrate who then informed the Coroner/Sheriff and Medicos and for the Coroner or Police Magistrate to issue a burial order for the public health aspect prior to the formality of the issue of the outcome of any inquest. So if perhaps a tragedy occurred to a miner, there may have been an inquest, and he may have been buried BEFORE the coroner provided the paperwork for the death to be formally registered. I cannot comment on the efficiency of the BDM offices in the other colonies/states, sorry. Each British colony that in the 19th century was provided with their own written constitution (including one each for NSW, NZ, Qld, SA, Tas, Vic, WA) and each of them had legislative authority to establish and maintain their own institutions ... including their own BDM registers...
IF ... and it is really only IF .... if your chap died under that type of circumstance, it may well be that the tragedy was written up in newspapers or there may be an entry in an inquest index ...
Trove (similar to Papers Past NZ) : https://trove.nla.gov.au/
NSW Archives https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
Mariners and ships in Australian Waters http://marinersandships.com.au/
And of course he may have deserted the family in 1892
JM
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Thank you for the reply JM,
We know William had his last child born in Hartley Vale in Jan 1893. This would presumably indicate he was alive in April 1892, assuming he did not die of shock as it was his 11th child.
The paperwork indicates that he or someone posing as William was the informant on the birth cert but there are some unusual aspects to it
The next date that we can be sure of is May 1894 when he was not present for the marriage of his first born daughter.
He failed to make an appearance at any of his children's later marriages .
He did not return to NZ when the rest of the family moved back in 1902.
We believe that this is the window of time in which he disappeared and have searched BDM and newspaper sources that you have indicated.
William was an experienced shale miner and had been in the mines since he was 15.
There is also the possibility that he was the Union Secretary on Denniston Hill, NZ when the union dissolved in 1891. We have not been able to verify as we understand that the records were lost.
There is a letter printed in Melbourne Argus in 1891 to W G Spence, secretary of the amalgamated metal workers union, signed by one William Henderson indicating he was looking to send men to NSW where there was a shortage of miners at the time.
We do not believe your last scenario, that he just left, after all the years he had with his family,
but If the latter is the case we are happy to hear of a verifiable alternate reality.
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Is this your family?
Auckland Star 15 Sep 1934 p1
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19340915.2.4?
O'CONNELL. —On September 14, dearly beloved mother of John, William, Peter, Andy, Jim and Sam HENDERSON, Mesdames McCULLOGH, BROOKING , and THOMPSON. Funeral leaves 24, Moa Road, Point Chevalier, 2 p.m. Sunday, Hillsboro.
BDM NZ death
1934/19319 O'CONNELL Margaret 81Y
BDM NZ marriages
1909/6841 Isabella HENDERSON marr. Richard Thomas BROOKING
1923/6539 Elizabeth Jane HENDERSON marr. David McCULLOUGH
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You are correct,
Isabella was my Grandmother.
I am not aware of any Elizabeth Jane in the family.
Isabella's sister was Elizabeth Ann Thompson.
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Hi,
Are you able to expand on the unusual aspects of the birth registration of the youngest child?
Do you know the names of William's parents ?
Sue
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Thanks for your interest,
The informant in recorded as William Hinderson, Father.
The birth cert lists the mothers name as "Maggie" rather than Margaret. This does not appear on any of the other childrens certificates.
The birthdate and age given for William are incorrect and you would expect someone to know their own age.
The names of his Parents were William and Ann
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Thanks for your interest,
The birth cert lists the mother name as "Maggie" rather than Margaret. This does not appear on any of the other childrens certificates.
The birthdate and age are incorrect and you would expect someone to know their own age
The names of his Parents were William and Ann
But she was not the informant I thought.
So
The birth date of whom?
EDIT
I am editing this post to try to keep it in line with Dumbarton's post which originally states as I have quoted here The birthdate and age are incorrect .....
It now reads the birthdate and age given for William are incorrect
Hence my question.
Sue
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Have you compared his signature on that birth cert ? And does it give the correct info for all the older siblings .... and for Maggie ... does it give her correct info ?
Is this for NSW bdm birth cert 20210/1893 ....
JM
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The info is correct for Margaret Henderson
The number you give is for a twin sister who died at birth.
the correct number is 20217
you will also notice the father's name is written as Hinderson
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Where and when did William HENDERSON and Margaret marry?
What names do you have for children born to this couple. Where and when were they born.
Can you give the source for this information that you are giving -
"...emigrated from NZ to NSW Australia approx june 1891."
"...He failed to make an appearance at any of his children's later marriages ."
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The info is correct for Margaret Henderson
The number you give is for a twin sister who died at birth.
the correct number is 20217
you will also notice the father's name is written as Hinderson
At the risk of getting a bit side-tracked here, I will be interested to hear if JM (or any of her many very experienced relatives ;D) has any thoughts on the 7 births gap in the registration of the two children, twins.
I have not seen this before, being used to seeing consecutive numbers at the event.
Perhaps it is in some way connected to the little one's early death.
Sue
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William and Margaret married in Whitburn West Lothian, Scotland in 1872
John 1873 whitburn
Mary 1875 Collingwood NZ
William jnr 1877 Buller nz
Margaret 1879 buller
Peter 1881 Buller
Isabella 1883 Denniston nz
Andrew 1885 waimagaroa nz
Elizabeth 1888 waimangaroa
James 1890 waimangaroa
source of immigration info: Denniston school records and shipping lists
Marriage certs and newspaper
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The info is correct for Margaret Henderson
The number you give is for a twin sister who died at birth.
the correct number is 20217
you will also notice the father's name is written as Hinderson
At the risk of getting a bit side-tracked here, I will be interested to hear if JM (or her many very experienced relatives ;D) has any thoughts on the 7 births gap in the registration of the two children, twins.
I have not seen this before, being used to seeing consecutive numbers at the event.
Perhaps it is in some way connected to the little one's early death.
Sue
Yes, I have made phone calls to my elderly relatives to ask about this ... (They are retired NSW BDM senior officers) ... Twins should be in consecutive order ... but on the other hand, 1892 ... so, perhaps NSW BDM head office staff had not recognised these as twins (HENDERSON/HINDERSON on the index etc) ... Anyway, on the actual documents, there are local line numbers ... and these should be in sequence, as they represent the entries in the local register, prior to the information being forwarded to Sydney Registrar General for formal registration. MY RELATIVES have not replied to my message on their answer machine. - Likely they will contact me tomorrow... :)
I am still concerned as to IF the signature matches up to other documents that William HENDERSON signed ...
20210 is for Agnes and it is as valid a birth registration as Samuel at 20217, and Agnes' death is registered as 8206/1893. I wonder who was the informant on that d.c. (HENDERSON and parents as William and Margaret).
JM
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AGH ...
Two chaps named William HENDERSON were named as father to babies whose births were registered in January 1893 at Lithgow...
Ellen H, daughter of William and Jane (20193) NSW BDM online index drills down to 12 Jan
Agnes, daughter of William and Maggie (20210) NSW BDM online index drills down to 17 Jan
and Simon, oops, Samuel ... son of William and Maggie (20217) NSW BDM online index drills down to 17 Jan (as HINDERSON on the index)
(All typed up so my elderly rellies don't have to search the online index, but rather just read over my typing .... so they can comment on their phone call back to me)
JM edit to correct given name for the son.
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Hello majm
Good points.
You will note that the births took place at Hartley vale and the registrations at Lithgow some distance away and the children were (obviously) not present.??
20217 is Samuel Henderson
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https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history-research/interesting-certificates.aspx
Look for Henry Lawson's birth cert, and notice the small column with 117 in it. 117 is the local entry at the register that was originally filled in by the part time Deputy Registrar located at Forbes NSW. That un-named column has handy info in it :) and was significant until the mid 1970s when NSW BDM centralised the processing of registrations.
JM
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Can you give the source for this information that you are giving -
"...emigrated from NZ to NSW Australia approx june 1891."
"...He failed to make an appearance at any of his children's later marriages ."
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note also the cert for Samuel states "elder born of twins"
which would suggest his number would be earlier (lower) than agnes.??
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Hello Wivenhoe
We have a shipping manifest that shows a William Henderson Wellington to Sydney on the ship Waiharoa 30 July 1891
Marriage of Mary 1894 Permission given by Margaret, Witness for Mary was elder Brother John.
Elizabeth married in 1906 was reported in detail in Waihi Newspaper. Mary and Husband witnesses no mention of William.
William and john and peter all had brothers supporting witness.
Samuel married in Isabella's house in Auckland.
William has no recorded presence in any of these events.
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Hi, on a very very long thread there's a post about your William's death
william henderson died on the 3 rd june 1892 may he rest in peace
and the following quote explains that it was not for your chap :) (I am assuming it was for a death in NZ, rather than in Nelson Bay, NSW :)
more information found out that this was not my great grandfather in in nelson hospital in 1892 so our search goes on for William
JM
ADD it is around 8:50 am on Monday 13 May 2019 as I note that there's something confusing me. I can now see that kiwican's quote made in 2018 has been reposted but has been expanded upon without any explanation. I have long understood that RChat restricts modifications to the first 24 hours only. Very odd. JM
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You will need to read this. 1894
I think he did desert if this item has the right man
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137273261
Sue
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That was at Newcastle Police Court... so they both had travelled long distances ...
JM
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/132513347? funeral for a miner Newcastle Herald 14 Dec 1895
ADD
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/132513020 Newcastle Herald 10 Dec 1895 - perhaps not our OPs chap, NSW BDM has parents as Robert and Mary, and the ref as 14629/1895
JM
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You are all incredible
To have cracked this is amazing
sad but amazing...
The West Wallsend funeral does not appear correct because of Parents names in BDM
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Dispute was possibly over Religion:
William was baptized and married in the Catholic Church as was his parents.
While in Waimangaroa Margaret Lapsed and the children were not baptized until shortly before departure to Australia.
Samuel was baptized in the Anglican church
Margaret is listed at death as Presbyterian.
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Dispute was possibly over Religion:
William was baptized and married in the Catholic Church as was his parents.
While in Waimangaroa Margaret Lapsed and the children did not attend church.
Samuel was baptized in the Anglican church
Margaret is listed at death as Presbyterian.
This is an interesting speculation .
However I think it a little strange that a strict Catholic, wishing a strong Catholic upbringing for his children, would be deserting his marriage. There had been ample time to sort these religious differences over the years of the union.
Perhaps you can tell us, why did Margaret remain in Australia until 1902?
Was there someone contributing for all those years to her support and that of her many children?
Was the man she later married originally from NZ?
Sue
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Baby Agnes burial in Old Presbyterian.... I am on e reader, so cannot do live links .. . Try google and aim for pdf of Lithgow's cemeteries ... alpha by surname ...
JM
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Thank you for your comments Sue.
After 127 years the motivation of the people involved can only be speculation.
Margaret died in 1934 at Isabella's Home before I was born :(
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https://council.lithgow.com/cemeteries/
http://council.lithgow.com/pdfs/140325_CemeteryList.pdf
that's the pdf that gives details for Agnes' burial, Old Presbyterian, Lithgow
ADD, it is possible that that may be for a different Agnes, I will strive to visit this grave next time I am crossing the Blue Mountains via Mt Victoria. https://www.printfriendly.com/p/g/gnsvgm
JM
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Thanks majm
the following link is for the same list, i think : http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=14&cid=808
It appears to show age as 24Y ?
Please give me your opinion :)
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Thanks majm
the following link is for the same list, i think : http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=14&cid=808
It appears to show age as 24Y ?
Please give me your opinion :)
It is not the same list, but it is pointing to the same Old Presbyterian Section of what I would refer to as the Bowenfels cemetery, but that's just because I have so many NSW ancestors. Your Agnes's d.c. (or official transcript) will have the clergy info and the cemetery info. I do not often go across the Blue Mountains via Mt Vic ie Great Western Highway. I often go via Golden Highway, or perhaps if visiting Sydney first, then I go via Bells Line of Roads... so not often via Mt Vic.
JM
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Hello again JM
Any progress on the Henderson twins non consecutive numbers?
I would be interested to know.
Thanks again for your efforts
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Hello again JM
Any progress on the Henderson twins non consecutive numbers?
I would be interested to know.
Thanks again for your efforts
Yes.
If you check the official certs for the number in the far left column those two ought to be consecutive, elder of twins first, being the entry at the local deputy registry.... the official number should follow that practice, but sometimes can vary, perhaps at HQ initial processing split between several clerks on the larger quarterly returns.
JM
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For the record: I apologize for the confusion and offence that was caused by the posting of an old post by another descendant of William Henderson.
I wish to acknowledge the skill and expertise of the contributors to my thread and that this has led to a major breakthrough for us.
best regards,
Db
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For the record: I apologize for the confusion and offence that was caused by the posting of an old post by another descendant of William Henderson.
I wish to acknowledge the skill and expertise of the contributors to my thread and that this has led to a major breakthrough for us.
best regards,
Db
Good to know you have have a major breakthrough. I doubt anyone took offence, no need to apologise for someone else's posts.
JM
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A good outcome all round. Good to hear.
:D