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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: munchies on Sunday 12 May 19 02:34 BST (UK)

Title: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: munchies on Sunday 12 May 19 02:34 BST (UK)
I have found a relative on Aphrodite in 1889
I am interested in line 5 Elias Saunde I can’t quite make out the name of his previous ship from Liverpool which is written on line 4 and is possibly the same as line 1

I am trying to track his voyages but am stuck as all possible guesses so far have not come up with a ship to match.

I do have a bigger picture with more writing to compare to but I think it might be too big to post

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: munchies on Sunday 12 May 19 02:43 BST (UK)
I am trying to work out the name of the previous ship for Elias Saunde in line 5 it is dittoed with the person in line 4 it’s out of Liverpool but not sure on the name. It’s possibly the same name as line 1

I am trying to track his voyages this ship is the Aphrodite but can’t quite work out his previous ship. All my guesses so far have not matched up with a ship apart from Fame and typically there are no online records for that ship
Any suggestions gratefully received
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 12 May 19 03:10 BST (UK)
Sorry I can't help but it may be an idea to add the yr 1880 to your post as it's not the 1st thing people will notice when they look at the image but does help?

Annie

Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 12 May 19 03:22 BST (UK)
What does the column say (hard to decipher) but I think it's asking a place name rather than the name of a ship or am I in the wrong column...which column?

"State Name and Official No.
or Port xxxx belonged to."

Annie
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: majm on Sunday 12 May 19 03:23 BST (UK)
Threads merged.

I could be wrong, but I think the word is Norway ...   

ADD ...  OOPS umm that's for the column heading - where born  :)

JM
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 12 May 19 03:24 BST (UK)
The first letter is the same as the first letter of the ship in the top row which I think is the Jane or possible James.  A J anyway.
But I don’t think it is the same ship.


Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: majm on Sunday 12 May 19 03:31 BST (UK)
The person at line 4 ... may have been 'Capt' as in Captain of the ship that the person on line 5 also was on ... and both likely signed on 1/8/1880  which I think would be 1st August rather than 8th January.  So perhaps look for the possible captain may help find the name of the ship  ;D

JM
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 12 May 19 03:37 BST (UK)
I think it could be the “Janie”

Eg this From the OCR

BeringapatuDi, London Janie, Liverpool Hartford, Arendal, Griding, Liverpool Lady Gertrude, Greenock Unione S, Hull 4 32 p.si.—TJE, modsrate. PORXHLEVEN. Arrived off Mary, Stodden [Aprl3]Hnvre and proceeded for Newport
15 April 1880 - Lloyd's List - London, London, England
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: sbny357 on Sunday 12 May 19 03:47 BST (UK)
I could be completely wrong, but I read the word as “Same”.  I think the word “Same”’is used the first time a name is repeated in the column, and then “Do.” is used for all subsequent repeats.  So I think the ship is the “Ken_____” but I’m not sure of the full name.

Steve
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 12 May 19 05:55 BST (UK)
For me.....
Elias Saunders (23) EDIT ..maybe.. 33  Norway Liverpool (above) Janie (below)
 ;D

Sue
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: munchies on Sunday 12 May 19 10:08 BST (UK)
Sorry about 2 identical threads I tried to post one iPad crashed so I started again as I thought it hadn’t gone through  :-\


Threads merged.
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: munchies on Sunday 12 May 19 10:51 BST (UK)
I think it could be the “Janie”

Eg this From the OCR

BeringapatuDi, London Janie, Liverpool Hartford, Arendal, Griding, Liverpool Lady Gertrude, Greenock Unione S, Hull 4 32 p.si.—TJE, modsrate. PORXHLEVEN. Arrived off Mary, Stodden [Aprl3]Hnvre and proceeded for Newport
15 April 1880 - Lloyd's List - London, London, England

So where do I find this record what is the OCR?

I was using various first letters eg F, S, L etc and then searching the Mercantile Navy lists to try and find the official number of the ship once I have this number I can search the crew agreements index.

Janie looks like a good option but I can’t find that ship in mercantile lists where did you find it?

I can find a Janie searching ancestry but the official ship number recorded there says it doesn’t exist on mercantile lists 😫🤷‍♀️
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: Richard Knott on Sunday 12 May 19 10:54 BST (UK)
I could be completely wrong, but I read the word as “Same”.  I think the word “Same”’is used the first time a name is repeated in the column, and then “Do.” is used for all subsequent repeats.  So I think the ship is the “Ken_____” but I’m not sure of the full name.

I also read it as 'Same' and read the names in the box as 'Kenilworth' and 'Liverpool'.

Richard
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: jcmac on Sunday 12 May 19 11:17 BST (UK)
"Same"
ie the same ship as he is presently signing on for this voyage - Aphrodite.
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 12 May 19 11:29 BST (UK)
I think it could be the “Janie”

Eg this From the OCR

BeringapatuDi, London Janie, Liverpool Hartford, Arendal, Griding, Liverpool Lady Gertrude, Greenock Unione S, Hull 4 32 p.si.—TJE, modsrate. PORXHLEVEN. Arrived off Mary, Stodden [Aprl3]Hnvre and proceeded for Newport
15 April 1880 - Lloyd's List - London, London, England

So where do I find this record what is the OCR?   british newspaper archive. I accessed it from findmypast, but it has its own website too. OCR is the optical character recognition on the search results

I was using various first letters eg F, S, L etc and then searching the Mercantile Navy lists to try and find the official number of the ship once I have this number I can search the crew agreements index.

Janie looks like a good option but I can’t find that ship in mercantile lists where did you find it?

I can find a Janie searching ancestry but the official ship number recorded there says it doesn’t exist on mercantile lists 😫🤷‍♀️
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 12 May 19 11:38 BST (UK)
Salvage of the Janie of Runcorn

17 March 1883 - Shipping and Mercantile Gazette - London, London,

Beginning of article here has a description
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: majm on Sunday 12 May 19 11:43 BST (UK)
I do not see the Capital letter 'S' for the word 'Same'  ... the capital letter I see is 'J'   Check how the capital letter 'S' is formed by looking at the surname for Elias at line 5.  Notice the flow of the ink, notice where the letter commences at line 5 ... and that the word suggested as 'Same' does not start with the same capital letter as Elias' surname at line 5.   Line 1's letter as a capitalised 'J' commences with the downward stroke in the 'middle' which is the usual start for the letter J in that style of longhand...  I still commence my longhand 'J' in that position.  I still commence my 'S' at the lower position as in line 5.   

It is very unusual to commence a column with the word 'Same' ... you would need to look at the previous entry (on the page immediately prior) ...

I can read 'Janie'  and I can read 'Jame' the confusion to me is only the letter or letters between the 'a' and the 'e'

JM
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: majm on Sunday 12 May 19 11:54 BST (UK)
Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette page 3 Mon March 5, 1883
Disasters to Shipping
Schooner Ashore
The schooner Janie, of Padstow, from Runcorn for the Tyne (salt) ran ashore on Saturday, between Newbiggin and Cresswell, but was expected off next tide.
…………….
North & South Shields Daily Gazette and Shipping Telegraph 22 March 1883 page 4
Maritime Notes
The Janie, Matthews, from Plymouth for Shields, left Lowestoft on Tuesday
…………………….

JM 
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: jcmac on Sunday 12 May 19 14:24 BST (UK)
Line 1              Same                Master
      2                do                   1stMate
      3                Ken....             2ndMate
                           (Liverpool)
      4               Same                Carpenter   
      5                 do                     ?
      6                Bredalbane         AB
Same means voyage continues on same ship as before.
do on next line means same as above.
Ken.... is his previous ship.
Same means voyage continues on same ship as before.
do on next line means same as above.
Bredalbane is his previous ship.
The seamen on lines 1,2,4 & 5 remain for this voyage.
Lines 3 & 6 are new crew members.
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: Richard Knott on Sunday 12 May 19 14:48 BST (UK)
Ken.... is his previous ship.

Kenilworth (see earlier post):
http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Ships/Fourmast_ships/Kenilworth(1887).html

Richard
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: seaweed on Sunday 12 May 19 15:38 BST (UK)
Cannot be 100% but I would go along with KENILWORTH but not the vessel linked by Richard. This vessel was not launched until 1887 and we are looking at the year 1880 according to the Crew Agreement of APHRODITE. (Munchies. Do you have her official number?)
Problem is,  there were two vessels with the name KENILWORTH registered in Liverpool in 1880. Ther
One with the official number 51538 the other 54920. Both Crew Agreements are at MHA Newfoundland.
 I don't think it is but needs to be checked out If  you draw a blank on KENILWORTH The correct spelling is BREADALBANE o/n 69284
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: munchies on Sunday 12 May 19 18:08 BST (UK)
So the Aphrodite official number is 59251 and I can view and read the crew agreement as this is where I got the details from
I think the first page of agreement says voyage will commence NEWPORT MON (is this Monmouthshire)  on 31/8/1880
And terminates at Liverpool on 16/4/1881
The Captains plan seems to say it will go to Havana and any port or ports within the West Indies and at Atlantic Ocean, United States of America, Dominion of Canada (possibly Ecuador if I squint)
 ? ? (I can’t read these words) Sea, France, Spain and Portugal and any other ports deemed (decreed) the latitudes of 70 (degrees) North and 60 (degrees) South
Trading ? ? Exceeding of 2 years there and back. If a port of discharge  ?   ? Curfew and E?
Calling for or (der’s) when all. ?   ?

Now that I have inverted the colours I am inclined to think Janie is correct. And I think he was the ships cook (that’s what his sons baptism record says)

I can also find him in 1889 on a ship called the Marabout in the Canadian Seafarers of the Atlantic Provinces 1789-1935 via ancestry. However the official ships number is J882057 which doesn’t exist in the mercantile records. In this record he says his previous ship was the Yarmouth or was from Yarmouth?
This seems like a very long trip Feb 1889 to Sep 1890 is that likely
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: jcmac on Sunday 12 May 19 18:21 BST (UK)
Your message appeared as I was preparing a reply.
You are asking about a ship from an 1881 CL&A which is named Aphrodite and can be viewed on www.mun.ca/mha.
Line 5 for Elias Sandie records his previous ship as "Do" and from the line above which has "Same" this means he sailed his previous voyage on the same ship ie Aphrodite.
Nothing else on the CL&A you give is of any relevance.
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: seaweed on Sunday 12 May 19 20:19 BST (UK)
munchies.  MARABOUT official number 85504. POR St John New Brunswick.
There was no Liverpool Registered ship with the Name JANIE around in 1880.
The JANIE registered in Runcorn O/N 65157. Her 1880 Crew Agreements are obtainable from here
Cheshire Archives and Local Studies Archive reference NS16/93. 
jcmac
I had already read the Crew Agreement from MHA before writting my last post. I can see where you are comeing from but I am still going along with KENILWORTH.
But hey, this is not a competition. All I am saying is start the search with KENILWORTH/APHRODITE.
If its a no go, then take a look at the crew agreements for any vessel he may have sailed on previous to August 1880. All the C/A s for APHRODITE, KENILWORTH and  BREADALBANE are at MHA /MUN.
https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/searchcombinedcrews.php
 I don't know what is available from commercial sites.
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: munchies on Monday 13 May 19 17:40 BST (UK)
So after an afternoon of reading ships crew agreements I think jcmac is correct the first line with the captain says Same (its much clearer on other entries) meaning he was on the same ship as he is currently on. So having excluded the Kenilworth I think Elias Saunde was previously in the Aphrodite.

As I understand it  National Archives wanted to get rid of lots of records and were going to destroy them but conservationists and family historians saved them. Some are still in U.K. at the National Archives and some are at Maritime museum, some are in Newfoundland and Maritime history suggests that some local history groups took some records relevant to their areas. Have I understood this correctly

Unfortunately I cannot find any other online records at the moment but there are records in the National Archives or at the Maritme Museum that I can request a search of so that might be the next step.

Both the Aphrodite and the Marabout (the other ship I found him on) are from New Brunswick in Canada and the Yarmouth mentioned as his previous ship from entry  on Marabout is from Yarmouth Nova Scotia so a bit of a theme I hope.

And lastly the Marabout seems to have been a long trip. Elias joined ship on 28/2/1889 and was discharged on 29/9/1890 would this have been one trip for 17months?
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: munchies on Sunday 16 June 19 22:48 BST (UK)
Just to let anyone interested know what I found
I tracked Elias backwards and forwards from Aphrodite with help from Canadian Maritime museum

Glasgow in 1878
Aphrodite 1879
Aphrodite 1880
Aphrodite 1880


Princess Alexandra 1886
Nellie T Guest 1886
Nellie T Guest 1887
Nellie T Guest 1888
Marabout 1889

The ones in the missing gap are only available via National archives which I will do after my holiday
It has been fascinating doing the research even though it seems to be proving that he isn’t actually my great grandfather as he is away at sea for several of his children’s conceptions including my grandfathers 🙈
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: Rosinish on Tuesday 18 June 19 00:36 BST (UK)
Interesting concluding line...a long journey to find the truth, well done!

I have to ask whether this was your suspicion prior to checking out his seafaring journeys?

Annie
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: seaweed on Tuesday 18 June 19 17:29 BST (UK)
Yes. Well done Munchies.
Be aware that Crew Agreements for years ending in "five" together with the years 1861 and 1862 are stored in NMM Greenwich.
https://www.rmg.co.uk/national-maritime-museum/caird-library/crew-lists-agreements-official-logs-request-form
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: BushInn1746 on Tuesday 18 June 19 19:02 BST (UK)
I am trying to work out the name of the previous ship for Elias Saunde in line 5 it is dittoed with the person in line 4 it’s out of Liverpool but not sure on the name. It’s possibly the same name as line 1

I am trying to track his voyages this ship is the Aphrodite but can’t quite work out his previous ship. All my guesses so far have not matched up with a ship apart from Fame and typically there are no online records for that ship
Any suggestions gratefully received

Hello

Your chap's vessel "Do" - Ditto

The vessel above is the Janig

European for Jane, Jean, Joan Johanna and Joanne etc.

The first letter of the vessel name is formed the same as the vessel in line 1, the Janie

Mark
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: jcmac on Wednesday 19 June 19 16:27 BST (UK)
Mark,
I had a look again at the column entry for "Previous Ship" (www.mun.ca/mha) and I see that the letter "e" has two forms in this column.
Compare line 1, 4 and 15 - I think the relevant entries are "Same" and "Do".
jcmac
Title: Re: Name of ship can’t quite work it out
Post by: munchies on Sunday 28 July 19 22:41 BST (UK)
Interesting concluding line...a long journey to find the truth, well done!

I have to ask whether this was your suspicion prior to checking out his seafaring journeys?

Annie

No definitely not there has never been any suspicion and I am quite disappointed that we may not have any Norwegian blood (although it does explain why my ancestry DNA test says I am 83% north west England ) He was elusive always away at sea for census or electoral roll. And my grandad remembered him being away for long periods when they had to chop up furniture for firewood then he would come home and tip gold into wife’s held out apron. I was just curious about his sea faring history and then once I started it was like picking at a scab I couldn’t stop 🙈😂