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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Jerry Smith on Monday 13 May 19 09:12 BST (UK)

Title: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Jerry Smith on Monday 13 May 19 09:12 BST (UK)
Looking for help tracing my dads side of the family .my dad's name is amos Smith and he's married to darki Smith   
My dad is one of 11 children,my grandfather name was Natty Smith.
My dad's family have lived in Hereford for many years and its a big family .they are a gypsy family.
Any info on my family will be grateful as I'm trying to track family tree.
Thanks Jerry Smith
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: jim1 on Monday 13 May 19 11:03 BST (UK)
Hello & welcome
The first thing I have to say is that Rootschat has a policy of not naming any one still living
so you might find your dad's name being removed.
What you need are birth & marriage certificates.
You know your Grandfather was (assuming he's now deceased) Natty probably Nathaniel Smith so you
need his marriage cert. to find his father's name.
It's difficult to advise any further unless you tell us exactly what you have so far.
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: JJen on Monday 13 May 19 11:33 BST (UK)
Hi,

Welcome to RootsChat.

Have found an article in Kington Times 13 February 1959 where a Mr Natty Smith of the Caravan Site, Hoarwithy Road, Hereford was sold a caravan for 90. Unfortunately the man selling the caravan was buying it on hire purchase for 276, he got into difficulty paying the instalments and sold the caravan. He was unaware that he was not able to do so.

I presume this could be your grandfather (Natty Smith)?

JJ
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Jerry Smith on Monday 13 May 19 12:27 BST (UK)
How do I get natty Smith marriage, birth certificate.
I don't know dob for him and don't know how to go about finding it.
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: JJen on Monday 13 May 19 12:56 BST (UK)
Do you know when and where Natty died as that record could give his birth date?

Do you know which of Natty's children was born first? Please only post details if this person had died.

Was Natty actually Nathaniel?

What was your grandmother's name?

Could you ask any family for more details?

Apologies for so many question but the more info we have the better we'll be able to help.  :)

You can order certificates for GRO -

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

JJ
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: PaulineJ on Monday 13 May 19 13:25 BST (UK)
The is an A--- Smith & a D--- Smith in the  Hereford Electoral rolls. 2003-2010

It look like Mrs Smith was 1940's  from there (unless she was lying about her age)
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: JJen on Monday 13 May 19 13:29 BST (UK)
I think they may have married in 1960's, Hereford.

JJ
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: PaulineJ on Monday 13 May 19 13:31 BST (UK)
I was also looking at xxx

Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: ciderdrinker on Monday 13 May 19 13:38 BST (UK)
Hello
This looks like him
Death Hereford Nathaniel Smith born 12 May 1908 died June qtr 1991 Hereford
ref  29 315
Birth June qtr 1908 Hereford 6a 489.
His parents are Nathaniel and Charlotte born 1876 Forest of Dean and 1882 Martley Worc.

There are 5 possible marriages and a 1939 and 1911 record (which I'm not allowed to post for copyright reasons).
Elder brother Enos  born Dec 1899 Weobley mother's maiden name Davies.?
Natty's suggests Smith
There is also a suggestion that the parents weren't married until June qtr 1916
Nathaniel Smith or Johns and Charlotte Smith at Hereford  6a 1138.
They appear on the 1939 index as Johns .
Charlotte does seem to be Smith on the 1881 census age 3 born  Martley in Martley workhouse.

Can't see them on the 1901 which I could post.

Nathaniel Johns birth Dec 1876 Westbury on Severn 6a 259 does seem to match up,
Father is Nathaniel Johns ,mother Rhoda Smith on an Ancestry family tree.

Ciderdrinker

Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: PaulineJ on Monday 13 May 19 13:51 BST (UK)
1911 here? (as suggested above)

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7JB-SLC

1899 baptism (Aeneas) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQ39-BLY
1902 Susanna https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NT6D-VB8
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: chempat on Monday 13 May 19 21:48 BST (UK)
https://www.herefordtimes.com/news/15372675.resident-calls-for-tree-to-be-cut-down-after-tripping-over-its-roots/

Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Jerry Smith on Monday 13 May 19 22:18 BST (UK)
Thank you for your help,
Be good to trace my mums mothers side of family.
Her name was pricilae hanes "Smith,holland.
She was married to charles matchet"Charli"
They would have traveled Midlands, Hereford and lincs.
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: PaulineJ on Monday 13 May 19 22:21 BST (UK)
Look if you need help, then you need to define some dates, not just general areas.
Please answer some of the queries already made.
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: chempat on Monday 13 May 19 22:29 BST (UK)
'pricilae hanes "Smith,holland'

What year was she born and with what surname?

What name does Darki also use - Dorothy or something else?
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Jerry Smith on Wednesday 15 May 19 08:37 BST (UK)
https://www.herefordtimes.com/news/15372675.resident-calls-for-tree-to-be-cut-down-after-tripping-over-its-roots/
Yes thats my dads wife
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Jerry Smith on Wednesday 15 May 19 08:39 BST (UK)
'pricilae hanes "Smith,holland'

What year was she born and with what surname?

What name does Darki also use - Dorothy or something else?
I don't know any dates, and darki means darki or darkus its a gypsy name
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Jerry Smith on Wednesday 15 May 19 08:43 BST (UK)
Look if you need help, then you need to define some dates, not just general areas.
Please answer some of the queries already made.
I don't know any dates, just names.i know my Nan died in Kettering in 1990s at St Mary's hospital and buried in rothwell northants .she was using"Holland"at that point I think
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Jerry Smith on Wednesday 15 May 19 08:46 BST (UK)
 Yes that could be them,I have a photo from 1940s of them and a vardo and they was married a week before photo I was told.
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Jerry Smith on Wednesday 15 May 19 08:48 BST (UK)
Hi,

Welcome to RootsChat.

Have found an article in Kington Times 13 February 1959 where a Mr Natty Smith of the Caravan Site, Hoarwithy Road, Hereford was sold a caravan for 90. Unfortunately the man selling the caravan was buying it on hire purchase for 276, he got into difficulty paying the instalments and sold the caravan. He was unaware that he was not able to do so.

I presume this could be your grandfather (Natty Smith)?

JJ
[/quote
Yes that my grandfather.i would like to find out the names of his children he had 11 and only one alive today,]
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: PaulineJ on Wednesday 15 May 19 10:45 BST (UK)
I don't know any dates, just names.i know my Nan died in Kettering in 1990s at St Mary's hospital and buried in rothwell northants .she was using"Holland"at that point I think
That's all that we needed to get a little further on that line

The 1942 Marriage is between a Nathaniel and a Darkie. (both Smiths)

Are they the parents of Amos? (& Amos also went on to marry a Darkie? )

A possible death, (mother of the Darkie wed to Amos)?

Name:   Ella Matchett-holland  also registered as Spies Ella Matchett
Birth :   2 Mar 1919
Death : Dec 1998 Kettering  Northamptonshire
Refs A53D / 6691A / 259

BIRTH    Spies E Smith
Registration Date:   Apr 1/4 1919
Registration district:   Derby
MMN/ Vol/ Page:   Booth / 7b / 827

Marriage Registration Date:   Sep 1/4 1936
Loughborough
Spouse:   Charles E Matchett
Volume / page :   7a/ 452

POSSIBLE (supposition only-no proof) birth
Births Mar 1914  MATCHETT    Charles E    Whyman    Ashby Z    7a   189

Death:Apr 1/4 1983    Charles Ernest Matchett Nottingham / Vol 8 / Page 0598
Birth Date:   12 Dec 1913 (close enough?)

from the 1939 index, there is a Charles Matchett b 12/12/1914 in  Basford.
I suspect with confusion over Spies Ella / pricilae his wife's record  hasn't been opened.

I can see no likely birth record for the lady in the newspaper article though.
Is your mother still alive to ask when /where she and Amos wed, when (about) she was born and if she was ever known by a name other than Darki? (and what that name is)
and ALSO when (approx year) was Amos (your father) born?
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Jerry Smith on Wednesday 15 May 19 13:36 BST (UK)

My dad"amos Smith is in his 80's old and very poorly so asking him dates etc is pointless,
I didn't know he was my father until last yr so I no nothing,darkus is his wife's name and that's her real name.
I will talk to my mum about this,but traveling folk don't like to talk about this kind of stuff so I'm finding it hard to get info.
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: PaulineJ on Wednesday 15 May 19 13:58 BST (UK)
So Darkie/Darkus the wife of Amos is not your natural mother?

You really should talk with Amos (or your mother)  and see what is suggested as names for his siblings, don't interrogate, just ask what he/she remembers.
Was he the eldest, somewhere in the middle or a tail-ender?

And you also NEED that marriage certificate between Amos & Darkie (even if Darkie is not your natural mother).

That Matchett - smith marriage certificate and the two birth certificates (for the bride & groom) are your next step(s) on that line

Pauline
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: nanny jan on Wednesday 15 May 19 14:47 BST (UK)
Is it possible that Darkie is really Dorcas?   

There is a possible marriage in 1950's  Amos Smith and Dorcas Davies.   :-\
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: PaulineJ on Wednesday 15 May 19 15:59 BST (UK)

The one mentioned at reply #7?
The OP needs to ask when the marriage was and send off for the appropriate cert.
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: nanny jan on Wednesday 15 May 19 16:10 BST (UK)
Oops....apologies....missed that.  :-[
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Jerry Smith on Wednesday 15 May 19 17:03 BST (UK)
So Darkie/Darkus the wife of Amos is not your natural mother?

You really should talk with Amos (or your mother)  and see what is suggested as names for his siblings, don't interrogate, just ask what he/she remembers.
Was he the eldest, somewhere in the middle or a tail-ender?

And you also NEED that marriage certificate between Amos & Darkie (even if Darkie is not your natural mother).

That Matchett - smith marriage certificate and the two birth certificates (for the bride & groom) are your next step(s) on that line

Pauline
Darkus isn't my mother,my mum and amos was only together few months in 1970 in Hereford hop Field's,I was only told amos was my father last yr .
Hes the youngest of  . 11 children and only one alive still.
Amos and darkus have 3 children and I'm also his son ,my mum is wendy "patrulia"matchet.
My dad is very poorly and remember s nothing and my mouther didn't know his family.
Darkus told me they have been married 60yrs and married when in there twenties.all Amos family are from Hereford .
I will be able to get the matchet side dates from my oldest brother.
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Jerry Smith on Wednesday 15 May 19 17:10 BST (UK)
Is it possible that Darkie is really Dorcas?   

There is a possible marriage in 1958 in Abergavenny;  Amos Smith and Dorcas Davies.   :-\
That could be her ,they lived on abdrgavenny Rd in a wagon and traveld around Herefordshir and Welsh borders
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: PaulineJ on Wednesday 15 May 19 17:27 BST (UK)
The issue is that while Amos is a tail-ender, we've no way of picking out which Smith-Smith births prior to (the early 1930's) have a father called Natty/ Nathaniel.

Add to that the parents of the 1908-born Nathaniel appear to be living as Johns in the 1939 (see reply #8) it's far from straightforward.

The best candidate for Amos Smith's birth is 1934 Wolverhampton. You could try buying that one if the father is named as Natty . We can rule out 1932 MMN Finch as the cert is published online.

Go back to Nathaniel's 1991 death and see if there was a notice/report in the local newspaper, or find out where he is buried and go look at the headstone/find out who else he's buried with.

In the meantime, get that order in on your Maternal grandfather and grandmother.

Pauline
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Sandy Hall on Monday 20 May 19 13:17 BST (UK)
Tagging on the end here.

Ella Spies Matchett is buried in Desborough Cemetery grave E352 having passed away in 1998.

I have a lot of graves of the cemetery so I will see if I can find it later although there are a lot missing.

Sandy
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Jerry Smith on Monday 20 May 19 17:48 BST (UK)
Tagging on the end here.

Ella Spies Matchett is buried in Desborough Cemetery grave E352 having passed away in 1998.

I have a lot of graves of the cemetery so I will see if I can find it later although there are a lot missing.

Sandy
[/quote
Thank you,
I was told the grave as no headstone, I would like to get one for her as it should be done yrs ago!!!
Also could you check if Abraham Stanley is berried in same yard.he passed away in 1990s "eari"I think    ,both was family.
Thanks Jerry
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Sandy Hall on Monday 20 May 19 18:40 BST (UK)
Hi Jerry.

Apparently there used to be a small wooden cross with Brass Plate.
SPIES ELLA MATCHETT died 5th Dec. 1998 aged 79 years.

Abram was also buried there in 1990, Grave C534 but no stone sadly.

You could always ask the Kettering Cemetery Office if they could mark the Grave for you at least.

The number I use for the Office is 01536 525722

Sandy
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Jerry Smith on Monday 20 May 19 21:10 BST (UK)
Hi Jerry.

Apparently there used to be a small wooden cross with Brass Plate.
SPIES ELLA MATCHETT died 5th Dec. 1998 aged 79 years.

Abram was also buried there in 1990, Grave C534 but no stone sadly.

You could always ask the Kettering Cemetery Office if they could mark the Grave for you at least.

The number I use for the Office is 01536 525722

Sandy
thank you for helping, Yes its sad how they haven't got Head stones,I will look into having two done for them, seems like family have forgotten them,I will never forget were I come from and memories I have of my nan,
Can head stone still go on after all this time?
Jerry
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: Sandy Hall on Tuesday 21 May 19 08:20 BST (UK)
Morning Jerry.

There are a few rules and regulations about relatives putting up headstones in the cemetery. Kettering have a form you can download although you will need to ask how to obtain it.

I hope you can achieve it.

Sandy

Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: chempat on Tuesday 21 May 19 22:14 BST (UK)
Does not the grave owner have the decision on head stones?
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: PaulineJ on Tuesday 21 May 19 22:54 BST (UK)
Yes, but with 'ealth and safety, there are strict rules about height etc.
Title: Re: Natty Smith Hereford gypsy family
Post by: sarah on Saturday 25 May 19 21:01 BST (UK)
Please remember that it is against RootsChat rules to publish details of living folk.

Regards

Sarah