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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Bedfordshire Lookup Requests => Bedfordshire => England => Bedfordshire Completed Look ups => Topic started by: k.bart on Monday 15 August 05 22:51 BST (UK)
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If some kind soul is willing I need a lookup please. If anyone has access to the 1841 census could you please look for any information re George Thomas Franklin, George Franklin or Thomas Franklin? I am having quite a time trying to locate him. I have a notarized letter from my grandfather Stanley Franklin stating that his father George Thomas Franklin was born in 1829 in Stotfold, Bedfordshire. This same letter also states that George married Alice Healy from Ireland. Fortuneately, I was able to locate the birth certificate of their only son Alexander who was born on the Isle of Wight in 1862 and on this it states his father's name as being Thomas Franklin ... not George.
This same birth certificate lists his mother as being Alice (late Cousins formerly) Healy so her marriage to Thomas was her second one. Using the names Thomas Franklin and Alice Cousins I was able to get a marriage date for them ... March 1861 at Westminster in London. While it is slowly coming together I am still missing the pieces that connect him to Bedfordshire. I am hoping that an 1841 census check might help me out.
Regards and thank you,
Karen on Vancouver Island
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Hi Karen
Welcome to Rootschat.
I've checked Stotfold in 1841 but could see no Franklins at all. Unfortunately there's no name index for 1841 so it's now like looking for a needle in a haystack.
I would have thought that the 1861 census should have more profitable, if they married in the first quarter 1861, but I can't see them anywhere on that either, which is surprising as the census was taken on 7th April.
I assume that someone in the family emigrated at some stage - do you have a date? I see there is an Alexander Franklin age 18 born England living in Quebec in the 1881 Canadian census, which may well be the IoW born Alexander. If this is the same Alexander he was a baptist - and they didn't baptise their children, so if he was from a baptist family you may encounter further difficulties!
I'll have another think in the morning!
Regards
David
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Thanks for your note, David ... and yes, the Alexander Franklin you found in Quebec, Canada was the same Alexander Franklin who was born on the Isle of Wight in 1862. The 3 of them came over to Canada together in 1880 and all 3 are present and accounted for in the Canadian 1881 census. You are right too in saying that Thomas was a Baptist yet his wife was an Irish Catholic so I don't how that all plays itself out in terms of Baptism. I don't imagine that it does.
I have already checked the 1851 and 1861 England censuses and the only individual who is present on both is a Thomas Franklin (dob about 1830) who was born into a large farm family of 7 sons and 3 daughters from Houghton Conquest. I do not know where that is in relation to Stotfold though and I don't have any proof that this Thomas is the correct one.
There is also another possibility, a George Thomas Franklin, born in 1825 in Leighton Buzzard.
The UK Census of 1851 lists George as an Assistant Vict. and Maltster 1825 Leighton Buzzard@BDF.
Dwelling location - Page 11, Number 62.
Address - North East of Leck Street.
This George Thomas Franklin worked for his father Henry.
Henry was a maltster and owned the The George (later known as The George and Dragon) pub on Leek (aka Leck and Lake) St. in Leighton Buzzard. He owned and operated the pub from 1830 - 1861. The pub was demolished in 1862 to make way for the Corn Exchange building.
The name is right but the year of birth of this George Thomas is about 4 - 5 years earlier that the date stated on my grandfather's notarized letter that I have.
Cheers,
Karen
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Hi Karen
A couple of random thoughts:
- do you have the 1861 marriage cert, and if so who was Thomas' father, and what were the occupations of Thomas and his father?
- was it normal in Canadian censuses for the wife to be enumerated under her maiden name? I notice that Alice is down as Alice Healy in 1881, which is why I couldn't find her last night!
But I still can't find any of them in either 1861 or 1871, but I'm still looking
Regards
David
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David, you must be reading my mind! I am going to order that marriage certificate online right now and I should have it in a week to 10 days. I just found the marriage information 2 days ago after searching for a year.
I don't know why Alice used her maiden name on the 1881 Canadian census unless it has something specific to do with marriage policies and practices in Quebec. I do know that even today there is something different that happens in Quebec regarding name changes and marriage. I am going to check that out too as soon as I can get in touch with a French Canadian friend of mine. What I originally thought was that Geo. Thomas and Alice hadn't gotten married at all and just lived together - but now that I have found their marriage information I can let that thought go.
Your interest and assistance are very appreciated, David.
Best,
Karen
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Karen,
I thought as your chap FRANKLIN married an Irish girl, I thought he might have been a soldier [as he must have got to Ireland somehow to meet her - unless she came to England? But not many Irish girls settled in Bedfordshire unless their men were working on the railways and the dates are unlikely?] but all I found in National Archives was a:
WO 97/251/53 JAMES FRANKLIN Born STOTFOLD, Bedfordshire Served in 3rd Foot Regiment Discharged aged 17 1848-1848 ...
That may be some sort of link there 'though?
Please check out: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyBedford.htm#S
And: http://blars.adlibsoft.com/form.html
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Hi Cathy,
Thank you for your reply re George Thomas, George or Thomas Franklin.
I don't think he was a soldier although I can't definitively say he wasn't. I believe he met Alice Cousins (nee Healy) somewhere in England. She was born Alice Healy in Newcastle, Limerick, Ireland but when he married her at Westminster in March 1861 she was registered as Alice Cousins. I assume this meant she had married a man with Cousins as his last name. I just recently found this out and have ordered a copy of their marriage certificate which I shall receive in a week to 10 days. Hopefully that will shed more light on this tricky duo ... a man with 3 possible first names and a woman with 3 possible surnames. :)
I have just checked the 2 sites you suggested. The Wallis site I have been to before but the other one is a new one for me and I will certainly search there.
Thank you again,
Karen
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Hi
I've found the George Franklin born 1824 Leighton Buzzard in 1861 and married to a Sarah Ann born Leighton Buzzard in 1871 which would seem to rule him out as yours. Thomas Franklin born Houghton Conquest is also unmarried in 1861.
In 1861 there is a Thomas Franklin born Beds and married to a lady born Dublin Ireland - but his birth year is circa 1821 and her first name is Mary not Alice (which would give her 2 possible first names to go with her 3 surnames ??? ;D) - they are in Finsbury Middlesex with a family name of Tate. Otherwise like you and David can't find anything.
Regards Jan ;)
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Hi There,
Thanks for your note. I really appreciate any and all of the help I can get. Hopefully the marriage certificate for Thomas and Alice that I ordered will sort out who's who and what's what. The birth certificate that I ordered for their son Alexander Franklin who was born on the Isle of Wight in 1862 tipped me off to the fact that George Thomas was using just the name Thomas and that Alice Healy had been married to an unknown man with the last name of Cousins prior to marrying Thomas Franklin.
Best regards,
Karen
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Karen,
He was much travelled which still makes me think 'soldier or sailor' but he may have been a tradesman or even gentry [I think the later is unlikely as there would be some land records]?
You could e mail Beds Archives and as if there are any Wills for FRANKLIN in Stotfold and the archivist will advise you...if you send them a copy of the letter, that will help them too?
Just a thought...the trade directories were not too good in the early 19th C but here is the link: http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/index.asp
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Hi David, Cathy and Janan,
I got a copy of Thomas Franklin and Alice Cousins (Healy) marriage certificate today so I thought I would update you with what I have learned from it. They married on January 20, 1861 at St. Mary's Chapel in Westminster, Middlesex. Both of their addresses at the time of the wedding were in Pimlico. Thomas's occupation was listed as a Labourer and she was shown to be a widow. According to the certificate he was 30 years old at the time and she was 32 so I guess that would make their birth years 1831 and 1829 respectively. Thomas's father's name was John Franklin (deceased) and his occupation was listed as a Labourer. Her father was also named John also deceased but while alive he made his living as a Cattle Dealer. Since I know that she was born in Limerick, Ireland would it make sense to suggest that perhaps she may have come to England with her father on a business trip? I don't know how much cross border business was happening at the time nor if it was feasible to move cattle from one country to another.
I did a quick census check for Franklins in Bedfordshire in 1851 with a head of household named John with a son named Thomas and found one possibility that looks plausible. A large Franklin farm family from Houghton Conquest shows a 20 year old Thomas with a slightly older brother named John, no father on site but many sibblings and a mother named Elizabeth. Possibly the older son named John might have been named after the father who in this census is obviously deceased. In the back of my mind Stotfold keeps rolling around because that is the name that is on the notarized letter written by my great grandfather Alex Franklin on August 16, 1915.
Any and all thoughts or suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
My best to you all,
Karen
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Hi Karen
Thanks for the update.
In 1841 the Houghton Conquest family was headed by John, 50 farmer (not labourer). But in 1861 the family which was headed by John 38 consisted of numerous of his siblings including Thomas 30 unmarried, farmer. The census was taken on 7 April 1861 so he should have been married with Alice in tow at that date. The farm was 175 acres and employed 5 men and 2 boys so was a pretty substantial operation. It looks to me as though the Houghton Conquest Thomas may unfortunately be a red herring.
What were the Pimlico addresses on the marriage cert? Possibly only accomodation addresses but who knows. It would be worthwhile trying to see who was at the address 2 months after their marriage.
I'll recheck Stotfold for John Franklins in 1851 and I'll be back later
Regards
David
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Hi Karen
Let’s take a step back and look at that notarised 1915 document. Alexander, son of Thomas, having lived in Canada all his adult life, born on the Isle of Wight, is not out of the blue going to invent the fact that his father was from Stotfold Bedfordshire. This is something he must have got from his parents, so there has to be at least a grain of truth in the statement.
I think I mentioned to you off board that whilst there were no Franklins in Stotfold in 1841 there were a number in Stotfold in 1851 born at Langford which is only 3 miles away.
I’ve looked closer at these in the light of the information on the marriage cert.
In 1851 in Stotfold there is
John Franklin head marr 61 Chelsea pensioner born Southill Beds
Sarah Franklin wife 56 charwoman b Northill Beds
James Franklin son 21 ag lab b Langford
Sarah Franklin dau 17 b Langford
Also in Stotfold
Thomas Franklin head marr 23 ag lab b Langford
Philis Franklin wife 26 b Stotfold
Mary Franklin 9 mths b Stotfold
BVRI has a christening of Thomas Franklin at Langford, son of John and Sarah, on 2 Sept 1827. “George’s” age in the 1881 Canadian census was 52 as at 4 April. So he could have been born 5 Apr 1828 – 4 Apr 1829, which is close to the 1829 date mentioned in the 1915 document, and pretty close to the 1827 date.
In 1861 in Stotfold there is
Phillis Franklin head marr 36 b Stotfold
Plus children Mary 10, Emma 9, Elizabeth 6, Joseph 3
No sign of Thomas in 1861 or any subsequent census. The description of Phillis as head implies that her husband wasn’t just away for the day the census was taken. And John was also missing in Stotfold in 1861 – deceased?
Doubtless you see where I’m leading!
Was the 1861 marriage bigamous? Not unheard of! Particularly in London, then they moved down to the Isle of Wight and then moved to Canada. Well away from a wife in Stotfold.
It would have too much of a good thing to have found Alice Cousins living in Stotfold in 1851, but she wasn’t!
Purely a flight of fancy I know, but it’s the best I can come up with. As all of the detective stories used to say “cherchez la femme”! Oh that they could be found in 1861, but I cannot see them. Perhaps they deliberately avoided the enumerator.
OK, that’s enough fiction for today!
Regards
David
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Thanks for your input David. I really appreciate your help.
Re the Pimlico addresses ...
Thomas was living at 6 Robert Street.
Alice Cousins (Healy) was living at 21 Caledonia Street.
They probably weren't there very long because I have a copy of their son Alexander's birth certificate and he was born November 5, 1862 at Fort Place, Sandown, Isle of Wight.
I feel like I am making a little headway. :-\
Karen
PS - I just this minute got your second note. Some great food for thought there, David! I could scan the notarized letter and send it to you so that you could see it for yourself but first you will have to tell me if I can send attachments through this site.
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Hi Karen
Just some further thoughts
Have been having another look at the couple staying in Finsbury in 1861. The family they are staying with are John Tate 56 Stableman and Hepzibah Tate 53 both born Bedfordshire. The children are unfortunately born Middlesex but they could have just been in Beds in 41 - if it was Stotfold ??? The ages of Thomas and Mary are possibly just estimates by the head of house ? And maybe Alice was known as Mary? A line worth investigating :-\ Can't find the couple on later censuses.
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan/Karen
In 1871 the Tates' birthplace was given as Eton, Beds, which could be Eaton Socon or Eaton Bray. According to the IGI there was a Hephzibah Franklin baptised in Eaton Socon in Dec 1807, and there were a lot of Franklins born Eaton Socon in the 1871 census.
Unfortunately I don't think these are the right Thomas Franklin and Irish wife.
Regards
David
PS There is a marriage in Eaton Socon on the IGI in 1833 between Hephziba Franklin and Thomas Teat and a baptism of Thomas in 1820. Thomas and Hephzibah were brother and sister by the look of it - parents Thomas and Ann
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Ah well David/Karen it was worth a try ;D Anyway that's yet another Thomas Franklin ruled out in 61.
Cheers Jan ;)
Like the bigamy idea ;D
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Hi All,
Three cheers for the bigamy idea!!! ;D ;D ;D
I need something to spice up my family tree!
Karen
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Karen has showed me a scan of the 1915 notarised document drawn up by Alexander Franklin, which basically sets out his son Stanley’s tree up to Stanley’s grandparents. There is no doubt that Geo Thomas Franklin was stated by his son to be “a native of Stotfold, Beds.”
This is too precise to be something he is likely to have fabricated. Karen, do all the other details in the document stand scrutiny?
There are no Franklins in Stotfold in 1841 and no references to Franklin in Stotfold parish register earlier than this date, so if Alexander’s statement is correct his father must have arrived in Stotfold shortly after this. Even if the whole family were Baptists/non-conformists which is what Thomas professed to be in Canada in 1881, and were missing altogether from the parish register they would still have been included in the 1841 census in Stotfold.
The 1851 census in Stotfold shows numerous Franklins, with John and Sarah the oldest, with a number of their children, some married with their own families, others living with them:
- Henry Franklin b Langford 1816, son of John & Sarah married in Biggleswade in 1841 and settled in Stotfold by 1842/3 where he had his first child (1861 census)
- Joseph Franklin, chr 1825 Langford, son of John Franklin married in Stotfold in 1846
It looks as though John and Sarah Franklin and their family moved to Stotfold from nearby Langford around 1842.
John Franklin married Sarah Pear on 14 Jun 1815 at Langford (IGI) which was not long after his discharge age 35 (??) from the 40th Foot Regiment in 1814 with which he had served since 1805 (http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk )
He was described on the 1851 census as a Chelsea Pensioner ie ex regular soldier.
This extended family were the only Franklins in Stotfold in the period 1842-1861, so if Alexander’s sworn statement is to be believed it must be from this family that his father came.
There is only one Thomas in the family, whose age is only a year or so adrift from his age in the 1881 Canadian census. However this Thomas married Phillis Underlin in Stotfold on 4 Feb 1849, and they had four children, in 1850, 1851, 1855 and 1858.
Thomas does not appear on the 1861 census with his family, although Phillis is described as married and head of the family. By inference Thomas was not living with Phillis, if the married description is accurate (as opposed to widow).
It might be useful to see if there are any Stotfold parish chest references to this family, which might explain Thomas’ non appearance in 1861, if these records have survived.
I have tried to find out who was living at the two addresses shown on Thomas’s marriage cert in 1861, but so far without success. However in 1851 6 Robert St appears to have been the Caledonian Hotel (numbers stop at 5 which is then followed by the hotel) so it doesn’t seem as though Pimlico was his normal abode.
If Thomas hadn’t been married I don’t think we would have had many doubts about picking him on the evidence to hand. Just about everything fits, or thereabouts. Apart from the minor detail of his wife Phillis!
The other problem is that I can’t find him or his father in 1841. They weren’t in Biggleswade workhouse or in Langford or Stotfold. His mother Sarah 45, Henry 25, James 11 and Sarah 8 were living in Langford, along with a Lucy Franklin 20 living elsewhere in the village. Could Thomas, as Cathy has suggested, have been a soldier like his father? Was he old enough at 13/14 to have enlisted by 1841? I can’t find out the minimum enlistment age at that period.
It may be a case of waiting for Ancestry.com to index the 1841 and 1851 censuses to look for the missing people – finding Alice Healy/Cousins in 1851 might be helpful. 1851 may be indexed as early as the end of this year.
But I doubt if you can ever prove categorically that Thomas who married Alice was the same Thomas born in Langford who lived and married in Stotfold. But there’s a fair amount of circumstantial evidence.
Regards
David
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Many thanks David ... you have done an incredible amount of research to help me sort my way through the Franklin maze. As you say, we may never have the information to categorically prove that Thomas who married Alice Cousins (Healy) is the same Thomas who married Phillis Underlin at an earlier date but so much circumstantial evidence certainly does point that way.
Regarding your question about the other individuals named on the 1915 letter - everyone mentioned there checks out completely. I have all of the data on each and everyone that Alexander listed. I think we can view Alex as a creditable source for information.
An interesting aside re Phillis Underlin - my neighbour who is an extremely experienced researcher went online and found a huge file on the Underlin line. It dates back to the mid 1600s and Phillis is shown to have married Thomas Franklin at approximately the same time as we thought ... give or take a year. I wish it was just that easy to track down my direct blood lines but - hey! - the thrill of the hunt and all that goes with it.
Again, David ... many, many, many thanks. Thanks also to Cathy and Jan for their input as well.
Best regards,
Karen
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John Franklin ,1785,and Sarah nee Pier were my GGG Grandparents on my mothers side.
Their son John,1821,married Lucy Rutt,1821,in 1839.In the 1851 census they where living at Main Road Langford with 4 children,Ann,Sarah,Jesse and James.1861 just Landford but now with 7 kids.Alfred,Eliza,Louisa and Jane being the new ones.1871 has them at Normans Cottages,Langford. Rd with only James,Alferd,Lucy/Louisa and Jane at home.Jane married Fredrick Rutt,cousin ?
John and Lucy daughter Eliza,1854, came to Liverpool and married Thomas Henderson 15 feb 1874.He was a coal dealer/carter.Did he meet Elisa when buying coal in the Langford area ?
One of their daughters Florence,1888, was my mums mother.
The Langford area is a bit of a minefield for Franklins and Rutts. There are a lot of them.And they used the same names for their kids.
The Langford & District History Society have some interesting publications.Also on their site you can download a list of people that lived there.
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Hi Gnasher, this was one of the most interesting queries on which I've worked. If you need any help with your Franklins or Rutts just ask
David
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Thanks David,a good name bye the way, your early post had some interesting info.
Sorting out the who's who between them all has been good but now the Bryant family have come into the story.
I would really like to know about how Thomas and Eliza got together but I don't hold out much hope.
I am planning on going down to Langford next year for a visit,to have a look around,go to the cemetery,History Society meeting etc.
Dave.