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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: andrewalston on Wednesday 15 May 19 15:20 BST (UK)

Title: Surnames in other languages
Post by: andrewalston on Wednesday 15 May 19 15:20 BST (UK)
We probably all know the usual surname origins for the UK (occupation, place name, nickname and "son of"), but do other places follow similar schemes?

Scandinavia definitely has a preponderance of "son of". "Mac" in Scotland means the same thing.

But is "Ferrari" as common in Italy as "Smith" in Britain? If not, is there an equivalent common name?

Any experts on non-English-speaking parts of the world?
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Erato on Wednesday 15 May 19 15:33 BST (UK)
There are many Spanish and Portuguese surnames that are the equivalent of the 'son-of' surnames in English, typically they end in 'ez' [or 'es' in Portuguese]  - González, Pérez, Ibáñez, Fernández, etc.
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: tonepad on Wednesday 15 May 19 15:37 BST (UK)
A Foreigner’s Guide to Polish Surnames:

https://culture.pl/en/article/a-foreigners-guide-to-polish-surnames



Tony
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: KGarrad on Wednesday 15 May 19 16:44 BST (UK)
Some Manx surnames; being the 10 most popular surnames on the 1881 Isle of Man census:

Kell(e)y
Quayle
Cain(e)
Corlett
Christian
Clague
Moore
Far(a)gher
Cannell
Quirk

(With thanks to ManxNoteBook  ;D)
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/famhist/fnames/sn1881.htm


No mention of Smith, Brown, Jones or Williams!
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Viktoria on Wednesday 15 May 19 20:07 BST (UK)
In Belgium De before ,as example ,Smet De Smet ,  the blacksmith.
Van,is a bit like of or from so Van Cauwenberg.
There is not an exact prefix for son of ,like Mac.
  Viktoria.
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Erato on Wednesday 15 May 19 22:50 BST (UK)
Here are a few Quechua/Quichua/Kichwa surnames which are common [and some not so common] in Peru and Ecuador.  Of course spelling is vary variable on these names.  Sometimes they're adapted to the Spanish alphabet and sometimes not.

https://www.asociacioncasadeperu.com/2010/04/apellidos-de-origen-quechua.html
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Andrew Tarr on Wednesday 15 May 19 22:56 BST (UK)
No mention of Smith, Brown, Jones or Williams! 
 
Is Faragher the Manx equivalent of Smith?  (I'm only guessing but it looks possible).  And I've always wondered at the number of Manx surnames starting with Q (I remember from long ago a paper authored by Quin and Quan).
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: pinefamily on Thursday 16 May 19 00:16 BST (UK)
For common surnames, the Vietnamese seem to have a lot of Nguyen and Tran.
In Sweden surnames as we know them only really came into being in the 19th century, although they were used earlier in and around Stockholm.
My great grandfather was Lindquist/Lundquist, as was his father. The next generation was in the patronymic style. So my great x2 grandfather was born Jon Olof Pehrsson, and became Lundquist in later life. His father was Pehr Olofsson.
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: bibliotaphist on Thursday 16 May 19 07:34 BST (UK)
No mention of Smith, Brown, Jones or Williams! 
 
Is Faragher the Manx equivalent of Smith?  (I'm only guessing but it looks possible).  And I've always wondered at the number of Manx surnames starting with Q (I remember from long ago a paper authored by Quin and Quan).

The word for "smith" in Manx is gaaue (see Irish gabha, Welsh gof); I think occupational surnames are pretty rare on the island. "Faragher" comes from an Old Irish personal name, Fearchar.

In the Manx surnames starting with Q/K/C, it shows a remnant of Mac meaning son of, just as in the other Gaelic languages, where the "c" sound from "Mac" became attached to the rest of the name (often and Old Norse i.e. Viking personal name!) through linguistic rebracketing (in the same way that "a napron" became "an apron" in English).

This is further disguised because the "Mac" itself later dropped out of use, which didn't happen to nearly the same extent in Ireland or Scotland - and the spelling of Manx names was often anglicised further.

So for example, "Mac Thorcaill" - "Mac Corcaill" - "[Mac] Corkill" - "Corkill".
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Skoosh on Thursday 16 May 19 08:53 BST (UK)
Scots & Gaelic, Gow/Gobha for a blacksmith. The name Smith is Mac a ghobhainn!

Torquil = Torcull & Siol Torcull are the Macleod's of Lewis, presumably from Thorketil?

Slainte'

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: eadaoin on Thursday 16 May 19 22:18 BST (UK)
Scots & Gaelic, Gow/Gobha for a blacksmith. The name Smith is Mac a ghobhainn!

sometimes GOWAN Anglicised from Irish
--------------------

looking at some of my family names ..
KAVANAGH comes from Caomhánach - -handsome . .the first Caomhánach ( Domhnall Caomhánach mac Murchada), was a son of Dermot Mac Murrough,  who persuaded the Normans to invade Ireland

Lawlor .. Ó Leathlabhair - a "half-speaker" - maybe the first one had a stutter??

McLoughlin - .. Mac Lochlainn (son of a VIking)
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Sloe Gin on Friday 17 May 19 12:11 BST (UK)
Welsh has 'ap' for 'son of', from which some now familiar surnames have evolved.

Pritchard from ap Richard
Pugh from ap Huw
Price from ap Rhys
Powell from ap Hywel

etc
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: whiteout7 on Friday 17 May 19 12:29 BST (UK)
New Zealand has surnames that are Maori transliterations

A name like "Lemon" becomes "Remana"
"Elliott" is "Eruma"
"Fraser" is "Pereiha"

Can be fun finding people!
https://www.sooty.nz/Pakehamaori.html

Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: IgorStrav on Sunday 19 May 19 15:51 BST (UK)
In Belgium De before ,as example ,Smet De Smet ,  the blacksmith.
Van,is a bit like of or from so Van Cauwenberg.
There is not an exact prefix for son of ,like Mac.
  Viktoria.

Thank you for this snippet, Viktoria, which made me go to google maps in light of my Van Steenhoven ancestry (who, I now know, came to the UK from Belgium, but whose family were from Oosterhout in Southern Holland, at least so far back as I've gone).
And lo and behold, there is a Steenoven close to Eindhoven, 48k away.

When I child I used to wonder about this impossibly exotic (to me) name, and wonder if there was some level of aristocracy in it, as you do.  But no.

And of course there are thousands of them.  Not at all uncommon in Southern Holland.
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 19 May 19 16:22 BST (UK)
At the risk of being pedantic, I should point out that only 2 of the Provinces of The Netherlands are called Holland! ;D
Nord-Holland (North Holland) includes Amsterdam; Zuid-Holland (South Holland) includes Rotterdam.

Steenhoven is in the Province of Vlanderen (Flanders) and is in the Southern Netherlands.

I lived in the city (and Province) of Utrecht for 16 years, and never lived in Holland ;D ;D


Also, a branch of my family goes by the name of Vanstone.
The Canadian side have changed this to Van Stone and have assumed the name comes from Belgium or The Netherlands ::)
Nope! Stems from North Devon and Cornwall ;D ;D
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Andrew Tarr on Sunday 19 May 19 16:26 BST (UK)
I lived in the city (and Province) of Utrecht for 16 years, and never lived in Holland 
 
Nor in Lincolnshire perhaps ?  :D
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: andrewalston on Sunday 19 May 19 18:27 BST (UK)
I lived in the city (and Province) of Utrecht for 16 years, and never lived in Holland 
 
Nor in Lincolnshire perhaps ?  :D
Nor in either of two places in Lancashire, these days referred to as Upholland and Downholland !  ;D
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: IgorStrav on Sunday 19 May 19 21:54 BST (UK)
At the risk of being pedantic, I should point out that only 2 of the Provinces of The Netherlands are called Holland! ;D
Nord-Holland (North Holland) includes Amsterdam; Zuid-Holland (South Holland) includes Rotterdam.

Steenhoven is in the Province of Vlanderen (Flanders) and is in the Southern Netherlands.

I lived in the city (and Province) of Utrecht for 16 years, and never lived in Holland ;D ;D


Also, a branch of my family goes by the name of Vanstone.
The Canadian side have changed this to Van Stone and have assumed the name comes from Belgium or The Netherlands ::)
Nope! Stems from North Devon and Cornwall ;D ;D

Thank you for this - I stand corrected.  I had to have a lot of help with my Van Steenhovens in tracking them down (a lot of them, as previously mentioned), and evidently there is still more to find out - including naming where they came from properly!

 :)
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: pinefamily on Monday 20 May 19 00:31 BST (UK)
As far as I am aware, Spanish and Portuguese tradition gives the mother's and grandmother's surnames as middle names for girls. I'm not sure how the boy's names are done.
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Erato on Monday 20 May 19 00:42 BST (UK)
They aren't middle names; they are surnames.  Both Spanish and Portuguese use double-barreled surnames.  In Spanish, the paternal surname comes first and in Portuguese, it is the maternal surname that is first.

For example, in Spanish, the son of Juan López García and María Moreno Rodríguez will be Carlos López Moreno.
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: pinefamily on Monday 20 May 19 00:48 BST (UK)
Thanks for explaining that Erato.
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Erato on Monday 20 May 19 01:01 BST (UK)
You can readily see how this is very useful for genealogical purposes.  On the other hand, it is a damned pain in the butt if you're a foreigner with only one surname because, no matter how many times you tell them that, they insist on inventing some second surname.  Usually your middle name winds up being taken as your paternal surname.  And that means you are listed under an entirely false name [which, admittedly, can sometimes be handy because it means that the surname in your passport does not match your name on the list of people who are behind on their taxes].
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Sloe Gin on Monday 20 May 19 13:15 BST (UK)
What do they do about people like me who only have one forename?  :)
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Skoosh on Monday 20 May 19 13:54 BST (UK)
Very good Erato, crazy, but very good!  ;D

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Billyblue on Tuesday 21 May 19 14:00 BST (UK)
I was told once, by an Australian-born Vietnamese person, that Nguyen is the equivalent of Smith.

Dawn M
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: maggbill on Tuesday 21 May 19 14:11 BST (UK)
And for me, who has done years of my Scottish/Irish ancestry, looking forward to future generations of my now Australian family - I wonder at the complexity of it all.

Immediate future possible generations - a mix of Scottish/Irish/German/English/Italian/Polish/Filippino… heavens running out of breath - and that is just without the inevitable modern issue of second marriages, split families, half siblings etc. etc....  !!!!!!
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: pinefamily on Tuesday 21 May 19 23:54 BST (UK)
I was told once, by an Australian-born Vietnamese person, that Nguyen is the equivalent of Smith.

Dawn M

I have been told that too, Dawn.
Pronunciation is interesting. I've heard native speakers pronounce it two ways: Noiyen, and NeWIN.
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: just1203 on Tuesday 22 October 19 21:29 BST (UK)
The history of the surname is a little more complicated than 'Smith'. During the ancient feudal time, kings will often force people that belong to a rival family to change their last name as a form of submission.

That happened in 1232. After usurping the Ly Dynasty, the Tran’s clan leader Tran Thu Do forced the descendants of the Ly family to change their last name to Nguyen.
Same thing happened in 1592, after losing their dynasty, most of the Mac family changed their last name to either Nguyen or Leu to avoid retribution from the new king.
Then in 1802, the Nguyen family took over the throne, so a lot of people changed their last name to Nguyen in hope of earning favors from the royal family.
The Nguyen themselves bred a lot. Gia Long, the first Nguyen emperor famously had more than 100 concubines. Minh Mạng, the second emperor, had 142 official children.
The Nguyen was also the last feudal dynasty in Vietnam, so there was no new kings to force the same fate onto them.
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Lydart on Wednesday 23 October 19 18:39 BST (UK)
In western Kenya, the Joluo people have a system where the persons middle name indicates the time of day they were born, or some other noteable event.  Names beginning with an 'A' are feminine, those beginning with 'O' are male. 

For example, a great friend of mine was Joseph Adhiambo Suku.  Wait a bit, you may say ... he has a female middle name !   True, but he was born at the same time as his mothers sister died, so he was given her name, Adhiambo.   (Suku was his fathers name.)

My children were all given Luo names .... so as two of my daughters were born in the evening, they are both Atieno; third daughter was born in the afternoon, so she is Adhiambo; and my son, the last born, is Otieno (same as the girls - born in the evening), but he has the additional name of Obon'go .... a boy born after girls.

It can get a lot more complicated than the above ..... but the local people are used to it !!

And NO surnames as in Europe.
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: DavidG02 on Wednesday 23 October 19 20:47 BST (UK)
Also, a branch of my family goes by the name of Vanstone.
The Canadian side have changed this to Van Stone and have assumed the name comes from Belgium or The Netherlands ::)
Nope! Stems from North Devon and Cornwall ;D ;D
Amanda Vanstone was a Federal politician here in Australia
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: brigidmac on Wednesday 23 October 19 21:15 BST (UK)
Thanks for posting this..I'm having a job identifying Lithuanian Latvian
Ancestors they seem to alter spellings everytimr they emigrate and have documents in Russian Hebrew Polish and English

The Goldberg's may have been Golden Gold or Goldstein

Friedman also Freed and Freedman within one generation between 1850+1930
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: pinefamily on Wednesday 23 October 19 23:24 BST (UK)
Also, a branch of my family goes by the name of Vanstone.
The Canadian side have changed this to Van Stone and have assumed the name comes from Belgium or The Netherlands ::)
Nope! Stems from North Devon and Cornwall ;D ;D
Amanda Vanstone was a Federal politician here in Australia
And her sister is still a judge here in SA, I believe. Supreme Court?
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Chilternbirder on Wednesday 23 October 19 23:31 BST (UK)
Thanks for posting this..I'm having a job identifying Lithuanian Latvian
Ancestors they seem to alter spellings everytimr they emigrate and have documents in Russian Hebrew Polish and English

The Goldberg's may have been Golden Gold or Goldstein

Friedman also Freed and Freedman within one generation between 1850+1930
Transliteration through other scripts can always create anomalies. When I worked in a bank I once interviewed a prospective customer who was a Palestinian from Israel. She produced ID documents that bore very little relation to the name as she wrote it in an Anglicised form as they had been transliterated from the Arabic version into Hebrew then back to Latin script.
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 24 October 19 06:31 BST (UK)
A bit late but hopefully helpful;

"Faragher" comes from an Old Irish personal name, Fearchar"

In Scotland Farquhar, I believe pronounced as 'Feracher'...certainly to my ear  ;D

Annie

Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: brigidmac on Friday 25 October 19 19:59 BST (UK)
I wonder if Landsman could have become Landau Landis and or Lane in other countries .

Making names shorter could also be due to  translation simplifications
Title: Re: Surnames in other languages
Post by: Mart 'n' Al on Friday 25 October 19 21:06 BST (UK)
The Indian name 'Patel' is sometimes westernised to 'Farmer'.

Wikipedia:

The term patel derives from the word Patidar, literally "one who holds (owned) pieces of land called patis", implying a higher economic status than that of the landless.

Martin