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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Horsley2016 on Thursday 16 May 19 12:34 BST (UK)
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Hello.
I've discovered a family line that crosses the RC/CoE a fair bit it has to be said! Something I always thought was sacrilege, especially in the Scotland Road area of Liverpool... Anyway. I have a relative James Edward Haynes born 3rd May 1899. He is baptised on 15th May at St Marys Church Kirkdale. John and Alice are listed as parents. This is the Church they married in too.
Then, on 13 Nov 1900, with the same DOB and details, he is baptised at St Albans RC. His Godmother is also his Grandmother here. On the records it has been written 'Conditionalier' over the top. Could this have some meaning towards crossing religion?
John and Alice have later children, can only find baptism for one other though - Ruth who is baptised RC at St Anthonys in 1905. Tey lose 2 children in 1909 and 1912 and they are buried at the Catholic Cemetery.
Any thoughts? Was this common?
Thanks
M
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English Catholics are or were, not uncommon in Lancashire.
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On the records it has been written 'Conditionalier' over the top. Could this have some meaning towards crossing religion?
It is Conditional Baptism in the Catholic Church: Conditional Baptism If it be uncertain whether the convert's baptism was valid or not, then he is to be baptized conditionally. In such cases the ritual is: "If thou art not yet baptized, then I baptize thee in the name", etc. Usually entered as "sub conditione baptized" http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#vii
In the Church of England it is called a Hypothetical baptism.
Stan
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My thoughts.
Mixed marriage.
One or both parents became Catholic or returned to the faith sometime before November 1900.
Granny was Catholic and exerted influence. (Was she definitely godmother? Was she paternal or maternal grandmother?)
Was there a revitalising mission at the Catholic church in 1900? A new, enthusiastic priest who visited homes and shepherded stray sheep?
Were John and Alice married before birth of James Edward?
NB. The Catholic Church in England recognised as valid marriages of Catholics conducted in Anglican churches until 1908. (Ne Temere papal decree on marriage). Some Catholic couples may have married in C. of E. because it was cheaper and simpler - no need for a registrar as there would have been for a wedding at a Catholic church.
There was a custom in Ireland in 19th century for parents in a Church of Ireland-Catholic marriage to work out a compromise about which church to have their children baptised. Sons baptised at their father's church and daughters at their mothers was a common arrangement. There are published studies on religious affiliation of children of mixed marriages. There are other threads on RootsChat about children of mixed marriages being baptised in different denominations and threads about 'double' and conditional baptisms.
3 of my great-aunts were baptised as babies in C. of E. When they were aged respectively 5, 3 and 1 they were baptised conditionally in a batch at a Catholic church. Younger children were baptised as babies at R.C. church. Their mother was baptised C. of E. Their father and paternal grandmother may have been R.C. Their paternal aunt (godmother) and great-grandfather were R.C. but the latter had died or disappeared when his children were young, so wasn't around to offer an opinion on his great-grandchildren.
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Something I always thought was sacrilege, especially in the Scotland Road area of Liverpool...
Why might this have been considered sacrilege?
John and Alice are listed as parents. This is the Church they married in too.
Is this John and Alice's marriage?
John Haynes - Birth Date- 1873
Alice Rodgers - Birth Date-1875
Marriage- 23 Sep 1894
St Mary Kirkdale, Walton On The Hill, Lancaster, England
Father's Name:
James Haynes (Deceased)
Spouse's Father's Name:
Edward Rodgers (Deceased)
John and Alice have later children, can only find baptism for one other though - Ruth who is baptised RC at St Anthonys in 1905. Tey lose 2 children in 1909 and 1912 and they are buried at the Catholic Cemetery.
Any thoughts? Was this common?
Thanks
M
Yes it was quite common for people to change denominations, for various reasons. It wouldn't be unusual if the family are 'old' Catholic but have used both the CofE as well as the RC church over many generations. Maybe it was just simply a matter of convenience, the near locality of a particular popular church.
People often did intermarry between Catholic and CofE, or between nonconformist and CofE. I would think the easiest way to do it, especially traditionally, was by a CofE ceremony .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_Act_1836
https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/transformingsociety/private-lives/relationships/overview/lawofmarriage-/
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English Catholics are or were, not uncommon in Lancashire.
They were common in some areas, 25-30%, even before the Irish influx of mid 19th century.
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English Catholics are or were, not uncommon in Lancashire.
They were common in some areas, 25-30%, even before the Irish influx of mid 19th century.
Yes and those were just the recusants who were recorded. The reality of the numbers of 'conforming' Catholics was probably much higher than mapped below
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Catholics_in_England_1715-20.svg/800px-Catholics_in_England_1715-20.svg.png)
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To explain a bit why this was controversial and the relevance of Scotland Road. This part of north Liverpool was considered to be near the border of two different communities. Scotland Road was more Catholic and Netherfield Road Protestant. The supposed border usually being Great Homer Street.
These areas experienced sectarian riots where people were forced from their homes for being the wrong religion in the wrong place. So it was drilled into people of both faiths in these areas to stick to their religion and people who married out of their faith were often disowned by family members.
Blue
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To explain a bit why this was controversial and the relevance of Scotland Road. This part of north Liverpool was considered to be near the border of two different communities. Scotland Road was more Catholic and Netherfield Road Protestant. The supposed border usually being Great Homer Street.
These areas experienced sectarian riots where people were forced from their homes for being the wrong religion in the wrong place. So it was drilled into people of both faiths in these areas to stick to their religion and people who married out of their faith were often disowned by family members.
Blue
This would be an imported sectarianism though. They were problems between Irish Catholic and Irish Protestant immigrants.
The topic family appear to be English CofE and English Catholic. Not sure how much a Scotland road area native CofE, Catholic or nonconformist, would get involved in any argument between two Irish communities? Wouldn't most native Lancashire/Liverpool people in the area want to stay out of such hostilities. The indigenous English heritage Scotland road CofE and Catholics wouldn't have the same history of animosity toward each other.
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To explain a bit why this was controversial and the relevance of Scotland Road. This part of north Liverpool was considered to be near the border of two different communities. Scotland Road was more Catholic and Netherfield Road Protestant. The supposed border usually being Great Homer Street.
These areas experienced sectarian riots where people were forced from their homes for being the wrong religion in the wrong place. So it was drilled into people of both faiths in these areas to stick to their religion and people who married out of their faith were often disowned by family members.
Blue
This would be an imported sectarianism though. They were problems between Irish Catholic and Irish Protestant immigrants.
The topic family appear to be English CofE and English Catholic. Not sure how much a Scotland road area native CofE, Catholic or nonconformist, would get involved in any argument between two Irish communities? Wouldn't most native Lancashire/Liverpool people in the area want to stay out of such hostilities. The indigenous English heritage Scotland road CofE and Catholics wouldn't have the same history of animosity toward each other.
No this was not an issue of two groups of Irish migrant communities. There was a history of problems before the great influx of Irish migrants. Catholic chapels were attacked in the 18th century. When numbers of catholics were swelled by Irish migration differences became more apparent and people became more tribal and territorial. It was more about religious affiliation than about Irishness. Outwardly defined by the school you went to, religious or sectarian parades, church attendance, celebrations, where you married and where you baptised your children.
Blue
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The 1909 riots were sparked by protestant hostility towards a catholic parade it was very tribal it sucked a lot of people in whether you wanted to be involved or not. People wanted to know back then are you a catholic or protestant there was a lot of division. Mixed marriages often increased the bitterness with children going one way or the other in their religion:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/liverpool/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_8241000/8241927.stm
Blue
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No this was not an issue of two groups of Irish migrant communities.
I disagree. It obviously was.
There was a history of problems before the great influx of Irish migrants. Catholic chapels were attacked in the 18th century.
Lancashire, Yorkshire and parts of the West Midlands already had high numbers of English Catholics, either conforming or nonconforming. These families intermarried with the CofE (itself a reformed Catholic church). Toleration in these districts must have been fairly high, not just of Catholics but also of other nonconformist. Some of the most powerful North of England landowning families were Catholic
Where were these attacks on Catholic chapels?
When numbers of catholics were swelled by Irish migration differences became more apparent and people became more tribal and territorial. It was more about religious affiliation than about Irishness. Outwardly defined by the school you went to, religious or sectarian parades, church attendance, celebrations, where you married and where you baptised your children.
Blue
Did everyday English people, the working class, become more religiously tribal during the 19th century? Are there many examples of this?
The North of England was a very mixed bag of denominations in the 19th c. Yet we see very little conflict between any of them. You had the CofE, the Catholics, the Methodists, the Primitive Methodists, Quakers, Presbyterians, Wesleyan's and so on. They largely tolerated each other wouldn't you agree?
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The 1909 riots were sparked by protestant hostility towards a catholic parade it was very tribal it sucked a lot of people in whether you wanted to be involved or not. People wanted to know back then are you a catholic or protestant there was a lot of division. Mixed marriages often increased the bitterness with children going one way or the other in their religion:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/liverpool/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_8241000/8241927.stm
Blue
The clashes mentioned in the link seem to be between Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics. It even refers to parts of Liverpool being dubbed as the 'Belfast of England'.
There is a difference between someone being 'Protestant' and someone being CofE. For example unlike Ireland and Scotland, we don't see a large number of Orange Orders or parades in England.
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The 1909 riots were sparked by protestant hostility towards a catholic parade it was very tribal it sucked a lot of people in whether you wanted to be involved or not. People wanted to know back then are you a catholic or protestant there was a lot of division. Mixed marriages often increased the bitterness with children going one way or the other in their religion:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/liverpool/hi/people_and_places/religion_and_ethics/newsid_8241000/8241927.stm
Blue
The clashes mentioned in the link seem to be between Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics. It even refers to parts of Liverpool being dubbed as the 'Belfast of England'.
There is a difference between someone being 'Protestant' and someone being CofE. For example unlike Ireland and Scotland, we don't see a large number of Orange Orders or parades in England.
It doesn't say Irish v Irish the differences were between catholics and protestants. It compares the rioting to the type common in Belfast. You don't seem to know about the history of that part of Liverpool I have both Catholic and Protestant ancestry and connections to the area so I've got local knowledge of what it was like. It's much better these days. For information about catholic chapels in Liverpool being attacked in the 18th century see the history of St Mary's RC Liverpool its early chapels were attacked by mobs:-
https://archive.org/details/catholichistoryo00burkuoft/page/n6
Blue
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There was a history of problems before the great influx of Irish migrants. Catholic chapels were attacked in the 18th century.
Lancashire, Yorkshire and parts of the West Midlands already had high numbers of English Catholics, either conforming or nonconforming. These families intermarried with the CofE (itself a reformed Catholic church). Toleration in these districts must have been fairly high, not just of Catholics but also of other nonconformist. Some of the most powerful North of England landowning families were Catholic
Where were these attacks on Catholic chapels?
Various places in 18th C. Preston and neighbouring villages (A mob from Preston). London, Liverpool. Probably other places.
Times: 1715 & 1745 Jacobite Risings; Jacobite Army occupied Preston 1716. 1780 Gordon Riots which were a reaction to the Catholic Relief Acts. Gordon Riot was a recent topic on Melvyn Bragg's Radio 4 series "In Our Time", available on BBC iPlayer or BBC Sounds. The senior Catholic bishop in England had to go into hiding in London.
The papal decree on marriage "Ne Temere" 1908 which required a Catholic to marry in presence of a Catholic priest caused ill-feeling.
I've wondered if the reason why the marriage of my Scottish Catholic 3xGGF to my English C. of E. 3xGGM at St. Ignatius R.C. church, Preston didn't happen until the end of the month of her 21st birthday, 2 years after birth of their 1st child, was parental objection due to folk memory of 2 Jacobite armies marching to Preston. Their 2 sons were baptised C. of E. The 2 daughters might have been R.C. Great-granddaughters of Scottish 3xGGF were the trio who had 2 baptisms.
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Re attacks on Catholic chapels in 18thC. These were 2 chapels some of my English Catholic ancestors used.
www.ourladyandstedwards.co.uk/fylde/fyldefolk.htm
See: St. Andrew, Cottam - The mission at Cottam - Rev. John Harrison, Rev. Mr. Smith
and St. Mary, Newhouse - Rev. John Carter
for accounts of attacks in 1745 and 1768. On both occasions the mob attacked St. Mary's in Preston first.
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It doesn't say Irish v Irish the differences were between catholics and protestants. It compares the rioting to the type common in Belfast. You don't seem to know about the history of that part of Liverpool I have both Catholic and Protestant ancestry and connections to the area so I've got local knowledge of what it was like. It's much better these days. For information about catholic chapels in Liverpool being attacked in the 18th century see the history of St Mary's RC Liverpool its early chapels were attacked by mobs:-
https://archive.org/details/catholichistoryo00burkuoft/page/n6
Blue
I do know something about the history of Lancashire and I also have Lancashire Catholics, CofE and nonconformists in my tree.
What do you mean by 'Protestant'? Do you mean your Irish ancestors or your English CofE ancestors?
Various places in 18th C. Preston and neighbouring villages (A mob from Preston). London, Liverpool. Probably other places.
Times: 1715 & 1745 Jacobite Risings; Jacobite Army occupied Preston 1716.
The Jacobite attempt at an invasion of England was led by an English landowning Protestant MP, Thomas Forster. This rather weak attempt was met with little resistance in the north of England apart from the siege at Preston and even there the townsfolk were not heavily involved.
It wasn't a simple case of Protestant versus Catholic, far from it
1780 Gordon Riots which were a reaction to the Catholic Relief Acts. Gordon Riot was a recent topic on Melvyn Bragg's Radio 4 series "In Our Time", available on BBC iPlayer or BBC Sounds. The senior Catholic bishop in England had to go into hiding in London.
The Gordon rioters were multi denomination and even multi ethnic Londoners. The hanged leaders of the riot, which included at least 2 black people and a Romany Gypsy, came from a wide range of backgrounds and even included London Catholics. The primary objective of the rioters seems to have been looting, and was not driven by any religious or political concerns the participants had
The actual riot was opportunistic and had little to do with the original meeting/protest led by the Scottish Protestant nobility in the form of Lord George Gordon. Again another example of imported whipped up sectarianism. This time from heavily Protestant Scotland
The papal decree on marriage "Ne Temere" 1908 which required a Catholic to marry in presence of a Catholic priest caused ill-feeling.
I come from an English mixed Catholic and High Church background but have never heard of this before, so can't really comment
I've wondered if the reason why the marriage of my Scottish Catholic 3xGGF to my English C. of E. 3xGGM at St. Ignatius R.C. church, Preston didn't happen until the end of the month of her 21st birthday, 2 years after birth of their 1st child, was parental objection due to folk memory of 2 Jacobite armies marching to Preston. Their 2 sons were baptised C. of E. The 2 daughters might have been R.C. Great-granddaughters of Scottish 3xGGF were the trio who had 2 baptisms.
Or maybe 'folk memory' wasn't even considered, who knows? It's all speculation
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19th century.
Campaign against restoration of Catholic hierarchy in England 1850. Riot in Birkenhead 1850.
Birkenhead, disturbances in 1859, cause: a Catholic burial ground.
Murphy riots 1860s. Plymouth, Wolverhampton, Birmingham, Rochdale, Stalybridge. William Murphy was killed in Whitehaven by Irish miners.
'Garibaldi riots' 1862 provoked by campaign for reunification of Italy. Disturbances in Hyde Park, London, and in Birkenhead. Protestant attacks on R.C. chapels Bradford, Leeds, Wakefield.
"The Birkenhead Garibaldi Riots of 1862" by F. Neal
https://hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/131-6-Neal.pdf
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19th century.
Campaign against restoration of Catholic hierarchy in England 1850. Riot in Birkenhead 1850.
Birkenhead, disturbances in 1859, cause: a Catholic burial ground.
Murphy riots 1860s. Plymouth, Wolverhampton, Birmingham, Rochdale, Stalybridge. William Murphy was killed in Whitehaven by Irish miners. https://hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/131-6-Neal.pdf
William Murphy was Irish. He was an immigrant who incited riots against other immigrants
'Garibaldi riots' 1862 provoked by campaign for reunification of Italy. Disturbances in Hyde Park, London, and in Birkenhead. Protestant attacks on R.C. chapels Bradford, Leeds, Wakefield.
"The Birkenhead Garibaldi Riots of 1862" by F. Neal
https://hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/131-6-Neal.pdf
And again. These are sectarian issues from outside England spilling over into a largely unmoved English working class population. Compared to other 19th century riots and protests in England, Luddites, Swing Rioters, Peterloo, Chartism, Labour unrest and strikes, they are nothing but a footnote and the Garibaldi Riots do not even warrant their own wiki page
From your own link
Quote
'...Frequently, these [fracas] arose from rivalry
between Irishmen from different parts of Ireland, and
Liverpool, more than any other English town, experienced
these fratricidal disputes. Often the quarrels broke out
among the Irish whilst on their way to England. On 20 June
1846, for example, the steamship Roscommon was out of Dublin for Liverpool. Barely half an hour after sailing a fight broke out among the Irish deck passengers, involving groups
from different counties in Ireland. ... Whilst working class
protestants were, in the main, unmoved by such issues as the
Maynooth Grant, the restoration of the Heirarchy or the Disestablishment of the Church of Ireland, inflammatory sermons on these issues gave some sort of legitimacy to
antagonistic feelings among protestant working men, the
roots of which lay elsewhere...'
'...on 5 April, 1862, the radical journal
Porcupine carried an article headed "Where are the No Popery
Men". The article was addressed to "the Collegiate
Institution, Hope Hall and Protestant garrisons generally".
The article began:
We, the undersigned, want to know whether all the orators of No
Popery, who used to be so clamourous in Liverpool when they could do
no good, have been stricken dumb just when they might render real
service? Are they aware that there is rising in the South of Europe the
great free Kingdom of Italy, whose destiny is to close the reign of Popery
once and forever? Are they aware that the rise of the noble Kingdom is
dreaded and hated by every advocate of superstition, priestcraft and
mental slavery all over the world?
The rest of the article is in the same vein, and takes the
Protestants of Liverpool to task for not exerting more political
pressure on those members of Parliament who were, it was
alleged, supporting Sir George Bowyer and Lord
Malmesbury, Catholic members of Parliament who were
rallying support for the Papacy against Garibaldi...In the event, 50 Garibaldi supporters
turned up and they were attacked by a group of Irishmen,
estimated at something between 150 and 500.
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Hi Horsley,
There is a baptism for a child you may not have known about:
Elizabeth Ann Haynes, dau of John and Alice. She was born 14 Sept 1897, and baptised at St. Mary's Church in Kirkdale on 04 Oct 1897. They lived on what looks like Mark (?) St.
There is a corresponding birth register that the GRO gives the mother's maiden name as Rogers. Little Elizabeth died the same quarter.
If you are registered at Familysearch (free), you should be able to see the image at:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9Y4-X3L8-B?i=402
Edit:
Just found another one in Catholic registers.... at St. Sylvester, Liverpool for "Helena" (so she could be Helen or Ellen, I believe.) Parents are Joannis Haynes and Aliciae Rogers. Helena was born 19 Dec 1908 and was baptised 01 Jan 1909. Just like with James Edward, there was no sponsor on the father's side, and on the mother's side it was an Emilia Kelly.
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It doesn't say Irish v Irish the differences were between catholics and protestants. It compares the rioting to the type common in Belfast. You don't seem to know about the history of that part of Liverpool I have both Catholic and Protestant ancestry and connections to the area so I've got local knowledge of what it was like. It's much better these days. For information about catholic chapels in Liverpool being attacked in the 18th century see the history of St Mary's RC Liverpool its early chapels were attacked by mobs:-
https://archive.org/details/catholichistoryo00burkuoft/page/n6
Blue
I do know something about the history of Lancashire and I also have Lancashire Catholics, CofE and nonconformists in my tree.
What do you mean by 'Protestant'? Do you mean your Irish ancestors or your English CofE ancestors?
Various places in 18th C. Preston and neighbouring villages (A mob from Preston). London, Liverpool. Probably other places.
Times: 1715 & 1745 Jacobite Risings; Jacobite Army occupied Preston 1716.
The Jacobite attempt at an invasion of England was led by an English landowning Protestant MP, Thomas Forster. This rather weak attempt was met with little resistance in the north of England apart from the siege at Preston and even there the townsfolk were not heavily involved.
It wasn't a simple case of Protestant versus Catholic, far from it
1780 Gordon Riots which were a reaction to the Catholic Relief Acts. Gordon Riot was a recent topic on Melvyn Bragg's Radio 4 series "In Our Time", available on BBC iPlayer or BBC Sounds. The senior Catholic bishop in England had to go into hiding in London.
The Gordon rioters were multi denomination and even multi ethnic Londoners. The hanged leaders of the riot, which included at least 2 black people and a Romany Gypsy, came from a wide range of backgrounds and even included London Catholics. The primary objective of the rioters seems to have been looting, and was not driven by any religious or political concerns the participants had
The actual riot was opportunistic and had little to do with the original meeting/protest led by the Scottish Protestant nobility in the form of Lord George Gordon. Again another example of imported whipped up sectarianism. This time from heavily Protestant Scotland
The papal decree on marriage "Ne Temere" 1908 which required a Catholic to marry in presence of a Catholic priest caused ill-feeling.
I come from an English mixed Catholic and High Church background but have never heard of this before, so can't really comment
I've wondered if the reason why the marriage of my Scottish Catholic 3xGGF to my English C. of E. 3xGGM at St. Ignatius R.C. church, Preston didn't happen until the end of the month of her 21st birthday, 2 years after birth of their 1st child, was parental objection due to folk memory of 2 Jacobite armies marching to Preston. Their 2 sons were baptised C. of E. The 2 daughters might have been R.C. Great-granddaughters of Scottish 3xGGF were the trio who had 2 baptisms.
Or maybe 'folk memory' wasn't even considered, who knows? It's all speculation
This is my last post on this thread as I feel like I'm wasting my time here trying to explain about the area where these people came from. I think I'm contributing useful and interesting information from my local knowledge but I'm getting heckled. Now I'm being asked what do I mean by protestant? In Liverpool people from a variety of reformed christian backgrounds were called protestants. To most catholics non catholics were protestants. Protestants went to state schools or their church schools. They grew up in a bitterly divided society where you were thought to be one or the other, catholic or protestant, where your religious background could affect your wellbeing and quality of life depending on the religion of the people you encountered in your life such was the hatred and prejudice of the time.
Blue
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This is my last post on this thread as I feel like I'm wasting my time here trying to explain about the area where these people came from. I think I'm contributing useful and interesting information from my local knowledge but I'm getting heckled. Now I'm being asked what do I mean by protestant? In Liverpool people from a variety of reformed christian backgrounds were called protestants. To most catholics non catholics were protestants. Protestants went to state schools or their church schools. They grew up in a bitterly divided society where you were thought to be one or the other, catholic or protestant, where your religious background could affect your wellbeing and quality of life depending on the religion of the people you encountered in your life such was the hatred and prejudice of the time.
Blue
No one is 'heckling' you Blue
We just disagree, its OK to do that and discuss it. We all interpret history in our own way. It would be a boring thing if everyone always agreed with each other, all the time