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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: mickawinn on Thursday 16 May 19 13:18 BST (UK)

Title: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mickawinn on Thursday 16 May 19 13:18 BST (UK)
Would a Belgian immigrant who came to England at the end of the 19th century appear on any passenger lists? I have Pierre Edouard Leporcq, son of Auguste, born in Brussels in 1884. Married in 1906 on the 1911 census and shown as a Cotton Broker on the 1939 register. I have tried Family Search unsuccessfully for birth record and am just really trying to find when and how he came to England. Any pointers would help.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: PaulineJ on Thursday 16 May 19 13:59 BST (UK)
Dunno, BUT

Try eliminating this chap . He's of the right age/ country of birth

 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QL93-S7D4

Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 16 May 19 15:15 BST (UK)
Tourcoing is on the Belgian border.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mickawinn on Thursday 16 May 19 16:04 BST (UK)
There is an appropriate gap in the children’s births for Pierre but none were born in Brussels or near. One to keep in mind.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 16 May 19 16:17 BST (UK)
How do you know he was born in Brussels?
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mickawinn on Thursday 16 May 19 17:00 BST (UK)
From the 1911 census.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ShaunJ on Thursday 16 May 19 17:05 BST (UK)
But the 1911 census doesn't say Brussels....
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: pb_devon on Thursday 16 May 19 18:52 BST (UK)
Passenger lists were not made for journeys within Europe, only further afield (not the right word for a maritime journey!).
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 16 May 19 21:28 BST (UK)
Passenger lists were not made for journeys within Europe, only further afield (not the right word for a maritime journey!).
Across the ocean?
Would he have registered as an alien in 1914?
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mickawinn on Thursday 16 May 19 22:04 BST (UK)
Brussels. My mistake, that’s where the family always believed he was from.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: TreeSpirit on Friday 17 May 19 03:05 BST (UK)
Of course the birth could have occurred in any of those little municipalities that are part of the Brussels region.
I checked Brussels and Molenbeek for births around that time and the only Leporcq birth was for a Jeanne Emilie Leporcq in 1882. The parents Charles Augustin Leporcq and Marie Delphine Galliot were actually residents of Boulogne sur Mer in France. (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-CS9W-G2?i=225&cc=1482191&cat=147201  - #5001).

Here is a list of the other Brussels municipalities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_municipalities_of_the_Brussels-Capital_Region

Additionally, No Leporcq was listed as an inhabitant of Brussels in 1882 and 1885.

BTW Have you tried Pierre's marriage certificate yet?
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mickawinn on Friday 17 May 19 05:59 BST (UK)
Yes I have his marriage certificate which was where I found his father’s name.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 17 May 19 08:09 BST (UK)
What was his father's occupation? The one in Tourcoing was a contre-maitre - a foreman.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: garstonite on Friday 17 May 19 08:45 BST (UK)
sorry folks - but I'm a bit lost here
firstly why - Cotton  Trade Liverpool
Pierre married Jane in the Wirral , Cheshire - lived on the Wirral -

Name    Pierre Edouard Leporeg
Event Type    Marriage
Event Date    06 May 1906
Event Place    St Hildeburgh, Hoose, Cheshire, England
Gender    Male
Age (Formatted)    23y
Father's Name    Auguste Leporeg
Spouse's Name    Jane Powell
Spouse's Father's Name    Thomas Powell
.....................................................
Daughter Elizabeth Marie was born 1907 and baptised in HOOSE Cheshire - West Kirby area - why are we titled Cotton Trade Liverpool ?
what is Pierres occupation on his Marriage Cert ?
Hoose ( Hoylake ) to Liverpool is around 15 miles - No Mersey Tunnel then .
Wirral did have Cotton Mills - Ellesmere had Cotton Mills
can someone please post the Liverpool connection please  :)
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 17 May 19 09:01 BST (UK)
Leporeg!

Thanks, Garstonite, I have found the marriage now. He was a "correspondent" residing at The Anchorage, Heron Road, West Kirby. Father's occupation - spinner.

Quote
Hoose ( Hoylake ) to Liverpool is around 15 miles - No Mersey Tunnel then .

There were direct trains from West Kirby to James Street in Liverpool from 1886
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Kirby_railway_station
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: garstonite on Friday 17 May 19 09:03 BST (UK)
I live in South Liverpool - 2 miles from Allerton Cemetery .do you know whether Pierre was buried or cremated ?  I may be able to find his headstone if he was buried

Name    Pierre E Leporcq
Event Type    Death
Registration Quarter    Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year    1960
Registration District    Liverpool South
County    Lancashire
Event Place    Liverpool South, Lancashire, England
Age    75
Birth Year (Estimated)    1885
............................................................................
surely if you bought his death certificate it would have is birth town on it ??
........................................
any idea when he moved from Hoose to South Liverpool?
...just seen your last post Shaun ...I am checking Toxteth Cemetery records - but presume he will be in Allerton - do we know his religion ?
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: garstonite on Friday 17 May 19 09:31 BST (UK)
Elizabeth Marie Leporcq married Jack Mansbridge in Ormskirk in 1932
................................................................................................
 a son born 1934 and a daughter 1938 both in Southport - possibly both alive so can't post names
.......................................
I can tell you that the daughter married in Southport to a Mcnamee and they have 2 daughters born 1965 and 1967 ...in Ormskirk
sadly Elizabeth died in North Liverpool and it gives her birthdate
Name    Elizabeth Marie Mansbridge
Event Type    Death Registration
Registration Quarter    Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration Year    1986
Registration District    Sefton North
County    Lancashire
Event Place    Sefton North, Lancashire, England
Birth Date (available after June quarter 1969)    26 Jun 1907
....................................................
looks like Jack was a possible war casualty ?
Name    Jack Mansbridge
Event Type    Probate
Event Date    16 Apr 1943
Event Place    Liverpool, Lancashire, England, United Kingdom
Event Place    Liverpool, Lancashire, United Kingdom
Beneficiary's Name    Elizabeth Marie Mansbridge .
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 17 May 19 09:36 BST (UK)
Quote
any idea when he moved from Hoose to South Liverpool?

I don't think there is any connection to South Liverpool except that Pierre died at the Northern Hospital. After the marriage they lived in Southport. where Pierre died in 1960.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: garstonite on Friday 17 May 19 09:43 BST (UK)
had a knee operation in that hospital - fine old Victorian building
I was right - Jack Mansbridge died at sea WW2- a steward in the Merchant Navy


StewardMANSBRIDGE, JACK

Died 29/10/1942

Aged 35

M.V. Abosso (Liverpool)
Merchant Navy

Son of William Charles and Alice Mary Mansbridge; husband of Elizabeth Marie Mansbridge, of Birkdale, Southport, Lancashire.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: garstonite on Friday 17 May 19 09:57 BST (UK)
Leporeg!

Thanks, Garstonite, I have found the marriage now. He was a "correspondent" residing at The Anchorage, Heron Road, West Kirby. Father's occupation - spinner.

Quote
Hoose ( Hoylake ) to Liverpool is around 15 miles - No Mersey Tunnel then .

There were direct trains from West Kirby to James Street in Liverpool from 1886
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Kirby_railway_station
Well I never knew that Shaun - that early - thought it was all horse drawn then - current value of Heron Road properties is £383,000p...
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ainslie on Friday 17 May 19 10:02 BST (UK)
Could Hoose be a version of Hoole, near Chester?  It seems more likely than Hoylake.
Liverpool was a great centre for trade in raw cotton, with very little involvement in spinning or weaving.  Many traders originated in Europe.  The membership lists of the Liverpool Cotton Association may be in the Liverpool Record Office.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: garstonite on Friday 17 May 19 10:07 BST (UK)
Could Hoose be a version of Hoole, near Chester?  It seems more likely than Hoylake.
Liverpool was a great centre for trade in raw cotton, with very little involvement in spinning or weaving.  Many traders originated in Europe.  The membership lists of the Liverpool Cotton Association may be in the Liverpool Record Office.

i googled it Ainslie - says area of West Kirkby
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ainslie on Friday 17 May 19 10:08 BST (UK)
New to me!
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mickawinn on Friday 17 May 19 10:17 BST (UK)
The reason for Cotton Trade Liverpool was because the family story was that Pierre came to Liverpool to work in the cotton industry, never went back to Belgium and was ostracised by his family as a result. I am just trying to find any info I can.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mickawinn on Friday 17 May 19 10:22 BST (UK)
Pierre’s father was a spinner according to Pierre’s marriage cert.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 17 May 19 10:27 BST (UK)
Quote
the family story was that Pierre came to Liverpool to work in the cotton industry

His first job in England appears to be as a foreign correspondent. He was still doing that when Elizabeth Marie was baptised in 1907: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-62K7-5SM?i=194

By 1911 he had became a cotton broker's clerk: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWY7-64G

Later on he was a partner in Hornby Hemelryk & Co
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: TreeSpirit on Friday 17 May 19 10:55 BST (UK)
@mickawinn

Do you have any idea what Pierre's native language was: Flemish (Dutch) or Walloons (French)?
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mickawinn on Friday 17 May 19 11:03 BST (UK)
No idea, he was only remembered as speaking with a ‘foreign’ accent.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: Maiden Stone on Friday 17 May 19 20:31 BST (UK)
Quote
the family story was that Pierre came to Liverpool to work in the cotton industry


By 1911 he had became a cotton broker's clerk: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWY7-64G

Later on he was a partner in Hornby Hemelryk & Co

Paul E.J. Hemelryk born Leyden, Holland 1840. Came to Liverpool 1862. Became a cotton broker in partnership  with H.H. Hornby 1870. He was decorated by the Pope for charitable work and by the Emperor of Japan for work as Japanese Consul in Liverpool.

 Gat Society History Walks 12
 "The Business Interests of Liverpool's Cotton Brokers c1800-1914" by Nigel Hall; Journal of Northern History vol. 41 (2004)
Some business records online.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: leen on Saturday 18 May 19 15:10 BST (UK)
got him, I think     http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ntb/    (image 973 / n° 39)
birth of Pierre Edouard LEPORCQ  ° 5 July 1884 Petit-Rechain, Liège, Belgium, at 9pm
parents : Jean Augustin Julien LEPORCQ (dit LEPOURCEAU), 30 years old, supervisor in a factory and Marie Joseph GEORIS, 27 years old, residing in Petit-Rechain

his parents marriage :   http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ntc/     image 776 / n° 18  (image 758 / n° 75  birth registration of Marie Francoise LEPORCQ, daughter of them)

Jean Augustin Julien LEPORCQ (dit LEPOURCEAU) -  Marie Joseph GEORIS   x 28 August 1880 Battice, Liège, Belgium, at 10am 
groom : ° 28 May 1854 Ensival, supervisor in a factory, residing in Verviers
parents : Pierre Edouard LEPORCQ (dit LEPOURCEAU), 56 years old, watchmaker and Jeanne Cathérine Thérèse DREZE, 49 years old, residing in Verviers, present and consenting
bride : ° 30 May 1857 Devant Staneux,Theux, residing in Battice
parents : Nicolas Joseph GEORIS, 53 years old, farmer and Marie Francoise CAJOT, 50 years old, residing in Battice, present and consenting

marriage annexes   https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9SJ-BJW9?i=956&cat=126741    image 957 - 961

(Ensival, Liège, Belgium // Verviers, Liège, Belgium // Devant Staneux, hamlet of Theux, Liège, Belgium)

Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ShaunJ on Saturday 18 May 19 16:32 BST (UK)
Good work Leen!  This is the family that Pauline found in Tourcoing in the 1906 census.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: PaulineJ on Sunday 19 May 19 16:23 BST (UK)
Well, I'm impressed and prepared to say so, even if the original poster has been on and beggared off again without thanking you.
Well done.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mickawinn on Sunday 19 May 19 20:47 BST (UK)
Thanks to all. I have been able to connect the line through to the living relatives. My only concern is that we haven’t found his father with the name Auguste as per the marriage certificate, other than that it fits together well.
Just a question to Maiden Stone and Shaunj is where did you find the business info on Pierre? Thanks again.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mickawinn on Sunday 19 May 19 20:49 BST (UK)
PS the delay in responding is due to me travelling back to the U.K. and having no internet.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: Maiden Stone on Sunday 19 May 19 23:52 BST (UK)
The links I posted didn't work so I removed them. I don't usually keep my notes for enquiries on here unless it might be useful again.
 I began with Grace's Guide website. I don't think I found much on there. There's Worrall's Cotton Directory. Some of the Gat Society History Walks contained little bits. I googled the rest, using Hemelryk or Hemelryk and Hornby cotton brokers as search terms.  Extracts from the article about Liverpool cotton brokers in "Journal of Northern History" are online.
I noticed business records but didn't investigate.
You might find something in National Archives Discovery catalogue. Holdings of many other archives are listed.
There are military records for WW1 as Mr Hemelryk held public office and raised recruits.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: TreeSpirit on Monday 20 May 19 03:14 BST (UK)
I suspect that that birth near Liège/Luik is probably the right one. However I wonder why the 1939 register is so wrong? I haven't seen the original document, but “Pierre Leporeq”, cotton broker, has his DOB as 13 Feb 1884 in a transcribed version.

BTW Pierre would have been employed in the cotton trade since (at least) 1903/1904:
Messrs. Hornby, Hemelryk and Co. have taken into partnership Mr. W. F. Mitty and Mr. P. E. Leporcq, who have been with the firm 30 years and 27 years respectively” (Times 7 Apr 1931)
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mowsehowse on Monday 20 May 19 08:07 BST (UK)

 I began with Grace's Guide website. I don't think I found much on there. There's Worrall's Cotton Directory. Some of the Gat Society History Walks contained little bits. I googled the rest, using Hemelryk or Hemelryk and Hornby cotton brokers as search terms.  Extracts from the article about Liverpool cotton brokers in "Journal of Northern History" are online.
I noticed business records but didn't investigate.
You might find something in National Archives Discovery catalogue. Holdings of many other archives are listed.

Maidenstone, would these "Worrall's Cotton Directory" & "Hemelryk or Hemelryk and Hornby cotton brokers" cover the Greater Manchester area?

I have a Swiss ancestor who had several children in the North whilst working there, and I would love to know if there are ways of tracking him.

Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 20 May 19 09:20 BST (UK)
Quote
I wonder why the 1939 register is so wrong? I haven't seen the original document, but “Pierre Leporeq”, cotton broker, has his DOB as 13 Feb 1884 in a transcribed version.

I think it is recorded as 13 July 1884. See snip below. I've  also snipped a February date from the same page for comparison
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 20 May 19 09:32 BST (UK)
Quote
where did you find the business info on Pierre?

His partnership in Hornby Hemelryk is mentioned in insolvency notices in the Gazette:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/33863/page/5867

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/38041/page/3752

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/42333/page/3016

Also in newspaper reports of the firm's financial problems in 1932.

Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: leen on Monday 20 May 19 10:25 BST (UK)
On the 1906 Tourcoing census that Pauline found, is Jean Augustin Julien Leporcq listed as Auguste, his second given name, likely the name by which he was usually called. At the wedding of his daughter Jeanne Catherine Leporcq with Arthur Désiré Joseph Hennion, on 21 April 1922 Tourcoing, Nord, France, one of the witnesses is Pierre Edouard Leporcq ‘employé à Southport, Angleterre’.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ntp/    image 182  /  n° 361
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mickawinn on Monday 20 May 19 10:29 BST (UK)
Thanks everyone for all your help. I’ve moved from wanting to know where I can find when Pierre came over to having his probable parents and  background information about his work life. I do appreciate the brilliant people on Rootschat.
Thanks again.
Mick
PS even more info comes in while I am typing!
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 20 May 19 10:57 BST (UK)
"Leporc dit Le Pourceau" - "Leporc called Le Pourceau? " So the family was sometimes known as "Le Pourceau"? (= The Swine? )
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mowsehowse on Monday 20 May 19 11:02 BST (UK)
Perhaps a pig breeder or butcher??
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mickawinn on Monday 20 May 19 14:35 BST (UK)
No I was told that the family referred to themselves as the Pigs.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 20 May 19 14:42 BST (UK)
Quote
No I was told that the family referred to themselves as the Pigs.

Leporc is of course literally "the pig"  (I noticed that Jeanne Catherine didn't use the "q" )
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mickawinn on Monday 20 May 19 15:00 BST (UK)
This is where the family got it wrong. Le porc is pork as in the meat but couchon is pig, the animal.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 20 May 19 15:11 BST (UK)
Depends on the context. In a zoological sense "porc" translates as "pig". In a culinary sense it translates as "pork". "Cochon " also means "pig" but with more of a dirty connotation, I think.
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 21 May 19 01:47 BST (UK)

Maidenstone, would these "Worrall's Cotton Directory" & "Hemelryk or Hemelryk and Hornby cotton brokers" cover the Greater Manchester area?

Manchester was nicknamed 'Cottonopolis'.
Worrall published many directories including:
 '1891 Worrall's Cotton Spinners' Directory'
'The Cotton Spinners' and Manufacturers' Directory for Lancashire and the Adjoining Manufacturing Districts' 1919.
'Worrall's Trade Directory of 1871'
'Worrall's 1871 Directory of Bury, Bolton and district' *
'Worrall's Directory: British and Dominion Textile Industry 1953'
Worrall published directories for several towns, districts and regions in England, Scotland and Wales.
*Download available from Bury Libraries https://www.bury.gov.uk
Other directories include Pigot's, Slater's.
Grace's Guide is an online directory of historical resources about industry.
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk
Title: Re: Cotton Trade Liverpool
Post by: mowsehowse on Monday 03 June 19 08:15 BST (UK)
Thank you for that Maiden Stone. I will work on it.