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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: ruthruss on Sunday 19 May 19 09:15 BST (UK)

Title: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: ruthruss on Sunday 19 May 19 09:15 BST (UK)
This family was an interesting one; patriarch Seth Rimmer was a well-known grocer and tee-totaller in Southport in the 1800s. This photo is of his daughter, Evelyn. I have had it dated at around 1890, but the dater could not offer any explanation as to why she would have had her photo taken with short hair. Any ideas? (Interesting fact: she and her two sons went to America, and her brother-in-law, a JP, signed all the necessary documentation. Her husband didn't follow her, even though he was still alive.)

Many thanks in advance!
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Treetotal on Sunday 19 May 19 12:25 BST (UK)
Hi Ruth and welcome to Rootschat...I wonder if it was through illness, in Victorian times..cutting hair was said to help to reduce fever or maybe she entered some institution and had to have it cut short.
Is there more to show of the photo and do you have the back, I'm just wondering how the date was arrived at with so little to go on.
Carol
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 19 May 19 13:01 BST (UK)
We've had a few photos of women with short hair over the last few years. I'd say, from  the limited info of the blouse and collar, that it was more late Edwardian than 1890.


Gadget
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 19 May 19 13:03 BST (UK)
Perhaps she was a "cross-dresser" which may explain why her husband did not follow her to America. She may have held the view that the Americans would more accepting of her than the English?  :-\

There were a few of them around in Victorian times and it went both ways - men dressed as women too. There are loads of photos to be seen via a google search.

You will probably never know her reasons for the short hair unfortunately.  :)
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: loobylooayr on Sunday 19 May 19 13:46 BST (UK)
Could be, as Treetotal says, that her hair was cropped/shaved through illness.
Scarlet fever being one illness my late grandmother remembered people having their hair shorn even as late as 1930s.

Looby :)
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Regorian on Sunday 19 May 19 14:02 BST (UK)
No, she's a woman. I attach a pic. from c1890, puff sleeve tops. Short hairstyles were not uncommon from the the late 1880's and through the 1890's. This is not the only example I have from my wider famiily. Otherwise, I agree the dating to Edwardian era for your subject. Evidently some women still preferred short hair.

My example was a long liver, born 1864 if I remember correctly, died 1958.

 
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 19 May 19 14:07 BST (UK)
Although there are other e.g.s on this board, this was the one I was thinking of. It was quite a long thread:

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=363466.0

Add - Regorian, the lady on your image looks as if she has her hair drawn back rather than cut short.
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Regorian on Sunday 19 May 19 14:18 BST (UK)
Not what you said on the Link, Gadget.
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Erato on Sunday 19 May 19 14:25 BST (UK)
Adelaide Bartlett had short hair.
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 19 May 19 14:25 BST (UK)
Not what you said on the Link, Gadget.

I think China was the only one who though her hair might be long. I don't think I said so. Can you give me the link to that, please?
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Regorian on Sunday 19 May 19 14:34 BST (UK)
You were the first to answer on the Link.
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Treetotal on Sunday 19 May 19 14:54 BST (UK)
Hi Ruth...I hope you don't mind me giving her a bit of a tidy, you don't have to have it if you don't want. She does look rather pensive doesn't she.
Carol
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Creasegirl on Sunday 19 May 19 15:06 BST (UK)
It might be that her hair has been tightly curled as was the fashion similar to what queen Alexandra wore.
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Erato on Sunday 19 May 19 15:08 BST (UK)
"Seth Rimmer was a well-known grocer and tee-totaller"

Maybe it's the grocery connection.  As noted, Adelaide Bartlett had short hair and her husband was a grocer.  My own great grandfather was also a grocer and, in the only picture I have of the family, it appears that great grandma had short hair or at least pulled it back so severely that it looked short [it's hard to tell because of the quality of the photo].
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 19 May 19 15:13 BST (UK)
You were the first to answer on the Link.

I didn't say anything about her hair being  cut, which is what I was referring to you in my post:

Add

Quote
Add - Regorian, the lady on your image looks as if she has her hair drawn back rather than cut short.
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 19 May 19 15:21 BST (UK)
A lovely, sensitive restore, Carol  :)

An interesting observation, Erato. I wonder whether it was something to do with hygiene in grocers' shops ??
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Regorian on Sunday 19 May 19 15:23 BST (UK)
Two more dated by Jim1 to 1888 to 1893. Younger one is my grandfathers sister 1870 to 1954.

Sorry for quality, not new scans of originals.   
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Erato on Sunday 19 May 19 15:42 BST (UK)
Another example - my great grandparents.  The younger girl is my grandmother, born in June 1886.
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Sunday 19 May 19 15:43 BST (UK)
Think I've a very distant and loose connection by marriage with Seth Rimmer of Southport, off hand via one of his siblings? Seem to recall there were loads of them.
Haven't seen many images of victorian / edwardian ladies with proven short hair - sometimes it's so tightly pinned back that it can look that way, and if it's springy and wavy it can look even more that way - but why ever not have it cut short if she wanted?
Unlikely it'd be a requirement of hygiene, a cap would attend to that. Recovery from previous illness may be a possibility - but if the lady in question was worried about that, she'd probably wait to have her portrait taken until it was possible to style it in a more usual way.
Perhaps she had an another occupation ( bathing machine attendant? - although that'd be a long trek at Southport!) that made short hair helpful and practical. Didn't she spend some time as a baker? - hot and sweaty job)
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Treetotal on Sunday 19 May 19 16:07 BST (UK)
You may be interested to know Ruth that there is a tree on Ancestry of her as Sarah Evelyn Rimmer Daughter of Seth born in 1870 in Southport and there is a lovely photo of her with her hair up that I would date to mid 1890s. Interestingly, although mistranscribed as Gayla, on the 1891 census she is listed as "A Baker" leading me to believe that somewhere between the mid-late 1890s and when she arrived in New York in 1910 she has had her hair cut. The photo you have put up is more typical of the Edwardian style.
Carol
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Gadget on Sunday 19 May 19 16:48 BST (UK)
Really good find, Carol.

The tree has:

Married Ormskirk, 1892
Arrived NY, 1910
Died Michigan, 1919


Gadget
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: ruthruss on Sunday 19 May 19 20:17 BST (UK)
You may be interested to know Ruth that there is a tree on Ancestry of her as Sarah Evelyn Rimmer Daughter of Seth born in 1870 in Southport and there is a lovely photo of her with her hair up that I would date to mid 1890s. Interestingly, although mistranscribed as Gayla, on the 1891 census she is listed as "A Baker" leading me to believe that somewhere between the mid-late 1890s and when she arrived in New York in 1910 she has had her her cut. The photo you have put up is more typical of the Edwardian style.
Carol

Hi Carol, thanks for all your comments. There is nothing on the back of the photograph unfortunately, the dater thought that she looked about 20 and as born in 1870 used that to date but of course could be wrong. The tree you saw on Ancestry may be mine, I have several photos of her. All the sisters were pretty but she is just gorgeous. Thanks for your suggestion about her getting it cut in America :)
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: california dreamin on Sunday 19 May 19 20:55 BST (UK)
The first think I thought when I saw the photo was that the woman had had her hair cut due to illness.  So, I would definitely agree with those that have previously said this.  Something like scarlet fever would be my thought.  However, she may have had lice or her long hair may have become matted through a long bout illness and therefore needed to be cut.  I would google something like 'Victorian illness and short hair'.  I really don't think there is any deeper significance to this.

CD
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 20 May 19 02:35 BST (UK)
The young woman seems to have thick hair on top of her head and what may be several small plaits at side.
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: whiteout7 on Monday 20 May 19 07:56 BST (UK)
There are examples of women with short hair on pinterest in the Victorian era.

Makes me think it was fashionable.

Also the suffragettes on "The Parades End" series had short hair (Edward was to be king as Queen Victoria was near the end or her reign)
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: McGroger on Monday 20 May 19 08:32 BST (UK)
Like Carol (Reply #11) I couldn't resist having a play. :) 
Here are two different versions.
Peter
Title: Re: A Victorian woman with short hair?! Evelyn Rimmer, Lancashire
Post by: tomkin on Monday 20 May 19 10:20 BST (UK)

 https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1DIEZ_enGB803GB803&q=short+hair+and+victorian+women&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj0_Py-46niAhWQSxUIHUrqDeIQsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=1267&bih=602