RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: tomara1 on Sunday 19 May 19 13:48 BST (UK)
-
This is a huge cry for help as I have hit a brick wall everywhere else I have searched.
My mother was adopted in the UK in 1945. She knows no details of her adoption at all and my grandmother has been gone for 20 years so no way to get info from her.
My mother has dementia which she developed at a relatively young age and it has made my siblings and I wonder if it is genetic and if there are any other medical issues that could be down the road for any of us or even our children. We would love to be able to find where our mother came from but all we have are her adoptive parents names etc and and Mum’s date of birth (although I guess that could even be wrong from things I have read).
We are in Australia which makes it even more difficult.
If there is anyone reading here who has any idea of what we can do, or better yet, knows of someone who might be able assist us in this search we would really appreciate it.
Thank you
Traci
-
People with a "prescribed relationship" can now apply for records of adopted people:
http://www.adoptionsearchreunion.org.uk/news/newsitems/newaccess.htm
Normally that would require the permission of the adopted person, but if that can't be given because of her dementia, you can still apply. Given your location, you may want to use one of the adoption intermediary services to help.
You can also contact GRO for help and advice in getting a copy of your mother's original birth certificate.
https://www.gov.uk/adoption-records
-
Greetings, and a warm welcome to Rootschat.
Rootschat policy is not to name living people, so we mighjt not be able to help much with the hunt, but AnthonyMMM gives sound advice. I would add that on the General Register Office cerificates page https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp (right hand side) is a menu with an option "Contact Us" - which may be useful.
Philip
-
Thank you both. I have sent a couple of emails to see where I can start. It seems almost impossible as the GRO states that only the adopted person can make enquiries. I think maybe handing it to an agency to deal with for me might be the best way to go if I can find one that is either free or very low cost as funds are limited.
If anyone else can advise me where to start with this I would appreciate it very much.
-
It seems almost impossible as the GRO states that only the adopted person can make enquiries.
Do you or any of your siblings have Power of Attorney for her?
-
Hi there, Welcome to RootsChat
Excellent professional help available in Australia, various organisations, including http://www.jigsaw.org.au/
Some thoughts ... Seems likely your Mum was born in the UK, and perhaps came to Australia after adoption... Have you checked the National Archives of Australia who may well have immigration papers ... not just the passenger list, but more detailed papers, perhaps not readily available to the general public via online digitised displays. I mention this because perhaps ten or so years ago, my brother in law and his wife found their full folder of applications, medical hisitory/certificates, from their local doctor, dental records etc from when they applied to come to Australia (ten pound poms scheme, plus the same for each of their then children, they arrived 1960s) ... all digitised, their signatures, their then address in England, comments from their immigration interviews, not just the ship passenger manifest, and much more. Not long after, the NAA realised Privacy issues were involved, and the entire suite of papers were no longer online. BUT the papers do exist at the archives.
http://www.naa.gov.au/ http://www.naa.gov.au/about-us/contact/
JM
-
My brother has Power of Attorney but he is the one out of four of us who doesn’t think there is any value in doing this search so it’s unlikely he would get involved.
-
Thanks MAJM, We moved to Australia in the 1970’s and I have spent many hours trying to find any information about that, even just passenger lists, but we just don’t seem to exist anywhere. Perhaps I will have another try through those links have given, even if they don’t contain what I am looking for, it would be great to see the other documents you mentioned. I will also get in touch with Jigsaw to see if they can help. Thanks so much.
-
My fingers are crossed, and I am absolutely certain that the IMMI papers exist, and of course the privacy issues can be overcome. You will find that Australian officialdom prefers working with the organisations rather than with relatives, basically because the organisations can use the jargon etc.
I would encourage you to encourage your sibling with the Power of Attorney to assist you all as much as possible re medical history issues. You could show him this thread as a start.
JM
-
http://www.jigsaw.org.au/how-do-i-begin/uk/
JM
-
I was just looking at the bottom link supplied by AntonyMMM and they have documents to fill out for those living in the UK, and those out of country.
It does say this on the forms:
Section 2-Adopted before12 November 1975
If you were adopted before 12 November 1975 you must attend a meeting with an approved adoption advisor.
2.1 Please email adoptions @gro.gsi.gov.uk or telephone +44(0) 300 123 1837 (option 8 ) for information on your nearest organisation or other options available to you.
Don't let that dissuade you, but why not email and ask where the nearest organization is as they may have some they would prefer working with, and hopefully be more lenient?
-
Yes, Jigsaw can provide that interview service, they are an approved organisation. It is on the link here:
http://www.jigsaw.org.au/how-do-i-begin/uk/
JM
You will be required to attend an interview with a licensed counsellor. If you wish to use our services, return the completed application form to the UK with Adoption Jigsaw nominated as the counselling agency here in Perth. The documents will be sent to us and you will be notified by them, you can then phone for an appointment with our counsellor to receive your information. Jigsaw can provide search and contact for adoptees born in England and Wales.
Perth is their head office. I am fairly sure that you do not need to go to Perth (capital city of Western Australia). I am fairly sure their counsellors can organise alternative locations.
ADD, I am happy to nominate other Australian based services to help with adoptions, but just like I would nominate RootsChat for someone wanting real help with their family history, I chose to nominate Jigsaw for real help with someone in Australia but with UK adoption help being sought.
JM
-
Perfect, JM! Now Traci has a plan of action to follow!
Positive thoughts, everyone!
-
Thanks. I think I will have to get professional help. I have been on the NNA website and tried the whole range of different ways to search but we don’t appear to exist. I even tried my grandmother who came with us and had a different surname (in case there was some kind of typo with ours), and she doesn’t appear there anywhere either. It’s so frustrating. I appreciate everyone’s help and suggestions.
-
Long way around it:
Go to Search the collection here: http://naa.gov.au/collection/search/
Then to Record Search there DO NOT ENTER ANYTHING YET But across the top, light blue background is Passenger arrivals.
Click on Passenger arrivals
And NOW USE LESS IS MORE thinking… :D
Put FAMILY NAME in but not too much info in any of the other options…
You know the year of arrival, so perhaps put year of arrival, but only if you have a very popular surname (SMITH, BROWN, JONES, WILSON, TAYLOR etc)
Hit Search (blue option lower left)
Wait for a very short while and then the Passenger arrivals index pops up for all the arrivals in that surname…
Each heading can be re-sorted …. Eg Date of arrival … click on that heading as an example, and scroll through, perhaps several pages to scroll through.
On the right hand side is the barcode. When you have found even just one member of your family, click on that barcode entry… You will hopefully have the arrival details - keep a copy of that info, it can be important when following up with the actual IMMI papers … if not, it will be simply that my instructions are not good enough or your arrival to Australia in the 1970s has not yet been indexed (very very unusual, but an email to naa.gov.au asking them will help you know what to do next)…
JM
-
Blimey, Thanks so much JM. We exist! I found our incoming passenger cards. This is exciting. Wo grateful to you for your help. I will now retrace my steps and see what else I can find using the minimal search terms idea.
Thank you again.
-
There's info on those papers that will help the officials. Download and do not crop the images, and keep the barcode numbers too.
I am very very pleased for you.
JM
-
When, and by what means, did your mother find out that she was adopted?
Grandmother died 20 years ago in.......Australia?
-
Mum has always said she was adopted for as long as I can remember but that’s all she ever said. I don’t know if she knew any details but she is the kind of person that tells things if she wants to and if she doesn’t offer information, you don’t question her. Yes, my grandmother came from the UK with us and died here.
-
Could you give us your grandmother's birth and death years and names?
-
I suppose anything might be worth a try.
Thanks
-
I think it would be useful for you to just research your mother's origins, separately from the matter of adoption.
Whatever means you use to research your mother's origins, you will need some BDM documentation.
Do you have your grandmother's death certificate?
Do you have marriage certificate/s for your grandmother?
Do you have your mother's marriage certificate?
-
Wise words from Wivenhoe, as usual :) and, of course, the ever present aim is to establish a medical history back through several generations, back to Traci's Mum's actual birth parent/s and then earlier generations back from them. I would not anticipate that can be achieved without a combination of a paper trail and DNA and professional counselling as there may well be siblings/half siblings still alive, cousins, who may have been born 1920s or earlier (ie same generation as the mother of the adopted lass born 1945.).
JM
-
Thanks. I don’t currently have my grandmothers death certificate but I imagine I could order it.
I also don’t have my grandmothers marriage certificate which would be held in the UK so not sure if that would be easy to get.
When you say my mother’s marriage certificate, do you mean her first marriage which would be also held in the UK., or her second which would be here.
Obviously I am ill equipped to start doing anything it seems. I had no idea I would need so much paperwork. It feels a little overwhelming to be honest.
-
Can you describe the family that arrived in Australia in the 1970s..........no names, just family relationships........your grandmother........your (married?) mother.......and........
All families have stories. Some stories are received over generations. Some stories are told directly....first person.
Your story is that your mother told you she was adopted. This might not be correct, whether your mother had genuine reason to believe it, or it suited her to say so.
People, and their lives can be complicated. And their parents lives can be complicated...etc.....
When your mother was telling you she was adopted, was your grandmother still alive?
Where and when did your grandmother die. You might be able to find a death notice in the paper.
-
Ok, arriving in Australia was - my grandmother, my mother, her defacto husband, myself and two younger sisters.
I think Mum was saying she was adopted when my grandmother was still alive. It has a ring of truth about it, as my grandmother had 5 still births and was told she would never have a living child.
I have to say though that I get what you are saying. My Mum is a complicated person and has said and done things just to suit her purposes so although the adoption story seems true, it could possibly not be. As Mum has moved into a care facility, we are currently sorting her belongings which includes my grandmothers photos. So far there are photos of Mum from about the age of 3 or 4. There is a photo of my grandmother holding a baby but we are undecided if it is Mum or not and are studying it closely.
I have also asked Mum’s brothers two children if they recall him saying anything about Mum’s adoption. He is her brother from her adopted fathers first marriage (wife passed away at a young age), and he was 20 years older than Mum so surely would have known the story, but whether he told his kids is another thing.
-
I do so hope that you will be able to assemble quality medical history, and that along the way you will also make good friendships with people whose ancestors are also your own ancestors. But it may be that not everyone actually 'knows' any secrets, and that's where quality organisations like jigsaw have a very special role, they have many years of quality research, and practical experiences and formal training. It can often be that a family member does not want to be approached by another family member for medical history, BUT that they are very pleased to be asked to help when asked by a fully trained person who is not a family member.
JM
-
When you say "grandmother', are you referring to the lady that adopted your mother, or at least who your mother said adopted her? (Thinking if there is some doubt about adoption, we can search her, and possible find a birth certificate for any children she had).
-
Yes, I mean the lady who raised my mum. Where would be the best place to search something like that? I have spent money to access Ancestry a couple of times in previous years but found it quite useless as far as tracking anything to do with Mum. All I could find was her marriage to my Dad, and the births of myself and two sisters. That was all information I already knew.
Thanks
-
You wouldn't find a lot on your Mum as the info would be "too new". I was thinking of the Grandmother, but again, it would depend on her birth year as to how much could be found.
Right now you have your hands full with the great advice from JM. However, if you ever do want to check out Grandmother, just revive this post with her maiden/married name, age, and where she came from. :)
(And if you ever need to get your brother a gift, get him a DNA test kit! Hopefully that would get him interested in family history and solve the mystery!)
-
I have also asked Mum’s brothers two children if they recall him saying anything about Mum’s adoption. He is her brother from her adopted fathers first marriage (wife passed away at a young age), and he was 20 years older than Mum so surely would have known the story, but whether he told his kids is another thing.
The more I think about it, the more I think that as well as following JM's suggestions, perhaps you should get a DNA test on Mum and the children of her brother. If there is a common line, (as in adoptive father is real father), it might solve a lot of issues. This of course could only happen if the two children agree to it.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out the results; Rootschat has a whole section on Ancestral DNA with people that understand all that stuff! In fact, if you do decide to go this route, I would look around the forum to see what "brand" is best, etc.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/ancestral-family-tree-dna-testing/
-
As your grandmother is dead, could you give her name(s) and birth and death, please?
Just to see if your experience of Ancestry can be improved.
-
As your grandmother is dead, could you give her name(s) and birth and death, please?
Just to see if your experience of Ancestry can be improved.
I would hesitate, afterall Grandmother's daughter is alive, and vulnerable and living in Australia, where we do need to respect her lawful expectation to privacy of the individual. That privacy includes protecting her identifying info, - her name, her parents' names, etc.
JM
-
The grandmother is dead.
We frequently work with people with living relatives, but look just at the information on the dead ones.
If anyone with possibly still living children is not allowed, then someone born in 1870 who gave birth in 1915, or born 1860 who fathered a child in 1915, and that child was still alive, would not be allowed.
-
Thanks chemoat and JM for your concerns here. I have given this a lot of thought and I feel like I will never make any headway if I don’t offer up some information. Given my grandmother is dead and my Mum has married several times, I don’t really think there would be any way to link the two of them and expose Mum to anything untoward. I hope I am correct, but before I go ahead and post the information here , I wonder if there is any way to do it as a private message so that the whole world can’t see it? If not, I will post here.
Thanks
-
You can private message people, but then you are not getting the power of people working together.
Probably someone has already contacted you?
-
UPDATE - Would you believe that last night I was talking to my sister about how frustrating this all is and she said I should hold on for a few days as she just came across another box of papers that my Mum had in storage that belonged to my grandmother and she hasn't been through it yet.
Anyway, she messaged me today to say that Mum's adoption certificate is in there and she will take it to work and scan and send it to me. Gosh, I can hardly wait, although I am bracing myself for it to say very little but it might at least be a start. I will let you all know when I have it.
-
That's great news,
JM
-
Hopefully sister comes across a birth certificate! (Or do adopted folks not get one for themselves?)
That solves one mystery! Even if it tells you little, perhaps there is some number on it that will help the Jigsaw people.
-
The grandmother is dead.
We frequently work with people with living relatives, but look just at the information on the dead ones.
If anyone with possibly still living children is not allowed, then someone born in 1870 who gave birth in 1915, or born 1860 who fathered a child in 1915, and that child was still alive, would not be allowed.
When the living are vulnerable, it is important that we respect their lawful right to privacy, which in Australia includes their own name and identifying information about them, which can include their parents' names. An easy test would be : If your Mum/sister/Dad/brother/next door neighbour/spouse/stranger was vulnerable, would you want her/him/their private information posted on a public forum for anyone, not just people logged in, to be able to read anonymously? Or would you prefer to hasten slowly, and proceed with caution and be able to follow up, knowing that you are not sharing information that your Mum/Dad/total stranger, when they were far less vulnerable and much more aware of worldly matters had not actually formally given express permission to be shared in the public domain ... A simple test.
Yes, I do understand those time span issues. I know from first hand experience the difficulty in assembling a medical history when living older generations don't want to hear the outcomes... I have living rellies born in the 1910s, I am old enough to have known their parents, and young enough to remember them well... and I have a living first cousin who became a father when in his 60s... Yes, it is a dilemma, but surely the information does not need to be published online in a public forum for anyone to copy and paste anonymously.
I am not advocating that the identifying information needs to be kept a secret, but I am advocating that it must not enter the public domain.
JM
-
Copies of entries from the Adopted Children Register (in England/Wales) can be in two forms, like birth certificates, either short or long.
The short version will just have the child's (adopted) name, date of birth and the place of birth will be "England" or similar (not a specific place). It is the one many adopted children were given to use because it doesn't have the word "adopted" on it anywhere.
The full/long version will have the adopted name of the child and their date (but not place) of birth, the names address and occupations of the adoptive parents and the details of the court issuing the adoption order.
Neither will have any reference, link or connection to the child's original birth details.
-
I had sort of expected that I wouldn’t find anything out from the certificate, except when she was adopted as we don’t know if she was a baby or a little older. At least we know now that she absolutely was adopted and it wasn’t just something that was being said because it suited some purpose.
Hopefully having the certificate will make things a little easier for someone to see if they can find out more. I plan to get in touch with Jigsaw once I have it.
-
Hello to all who advised me earlier. I am back because I now have my mother’s adoption order. It shows her birth mother’s name and my mother’s original christian names which were on her birth certificate. That is pretty much all, so although it’s great to have this, I really have no clue where to go to start to research my biological grandmother and also try and find out if there is a record anywhere of my mother’s father. Any help is really appreciated. Thank you.
-
As your Mother was born in 1945, presumably with no Father on the certificate, then you could look for your biological grandmother in 1939, possibly in the same area of the country. Any indication of her age on any documents you have received?
-
Thanks for the reply. No, unfortunately, the only details of the birth mother is her name.
-
Birth certificate...............name of baby (your mother)........and mother
Adoption record..............name of baby (your mother)........and mother
These names are exactly the same on both records?.........and your mother used the same given names through her life?
What date do you have for birth of baby, 1945....where and when was birth recorded....who was the informant?
Adoption record.......what dates and places do you see on the document?. Does mother sign the document?
Who is the authorising agent......church orphanage......state orphanage.
Is it a document drawn up by a solicitor between mother and adoptive parents.........no orphanage involved?
-
I don’t have her birth certificate, only the adoption order from the Juvenile Court. The adoptive parents changed Mum’s name and she kept those christian names to this day. There are no signatures on the order except for the Justice of the Peace who made the order. The adoptive parents details are listed - names, address, occupations. There is a clause that states that a match to the child has been found in registered births to verify the date of birth etc. That’s pretty much all it has. The birth mother’s name is given but no other information about her unfortunately.
-
Could you give us the birth Mother's name, to help us try and find her in 1939. If it is a very 'popular' name, e.g. Jane Smith, not going to be of much use, unfortunately.
-
Could you give us the birth Mother's name, to help us try and find her in 1939. If it is a very 'popular' name, e.g. Jane Smith, not going to be of much use, unfortunately.
It should also be easy enough to find her original birth on https://www.freebmd.org.uk/ it will also show her mother's maiden name,which is probably the same as your mum's birth name.
-
The mother’s name was Doreen Camm and the adoption took place in Willesden, not to say that she was from there, but it might help.
Thank you so much - I am so lost with all of this.
-
Hi there are 2 female births in 1945 surname Camm with a mother's surname Camm first one was registered in the March quarter in Hammersmith the other in the September quarter in Lancaster
If you go to https://www.freebmd.org.uk and search for surname Camm born 1945 they should come up then you will be able to order the birth certificate from the GRO using the details given
-
I suspect she's the Doreen Camm born in Willesden in March 1/4 of 1927.
She marries a Leonard A Crust in Willesden in Dec 1947 and dies as Doreen Crust in Feb 1992 aged 65 in Romford Essex.
She had 2 further children who will most likely still be alive. Check them out on Free BMD.
-
Blimey. everyone is so helpful here.
Wendy2305 - thank you - its the Hammersmith one . So pleased to have got that far.
Carol8353 - i suspect you are correct. This is so exciting- i cant wait to see if I can find anything from your information.
I do find these websites a little tricky to manage but will give it a go. I think maybe they aren’t so good with iPad and I might need to get serious and bring out the laptop.
I really do appreciate everyone’s help and am open to any other suggestions of where I might look for information.
Thank you
-
This website is a hoot! I used an Australianism at the beginning of my last post and it changed it to ‘blimey’ - so funny! We never say that here.
-
What date/s do you see on the adoption document?
-
I’ve just found this thread, and am so pleased to see that you have made so much progress with help from our excellent rootschatters. :)
I can’t add too much except to speculate that considering her year of birth, the father could have been a serviceman, possibly even from overseas.
As previously mentioned, you may have some success with a DNA test, preferably a sample from your mother, but you could take one yourself. I am not sure how you feel about attempting to contact the (likely to be) living children of Doreen? I understand that is a whole other subject. If you did make contact and they were willing to take a DNA test that might be useful - you never know, the Crust chap might also be your mother’s father.
If you have a subscription with one of the pay sites, or perhaps someone may already be helping you privately, the living children’s births and marriages will be accessible online, unlike recent Australian records.
You might even be able to find them, or their living relatives on Facebook or other social media, but proceed with caution, as they possibly/probably are unaware of your mother’s birth.
Best of luck. :)
-
One thing that did occur to me, how lucky are you that she has both an unusual maiden name and married name!
If that was me it would be Smith and Jones 8)
Carol
-
Thanks Ruskie. At the moment, my head is spinning, but when it stops, I will see what my next step will be.
Carol - you are so right, could have been impossible with common surnames. Sometimes you just get lucky I guess.
-
Doreen is in 2 trees on Ancestry, if you want to try and approach that way.
-
Thanks Chempat. You are very helpful. To be honest, I wouldn’t have tried Ancestry as I have paid for access there before and found it useless. I am prepared to pay again now that I have confirmation that I will find something there. Is it difficult to find her?
-
It is not difficult to find her in the 2 family trees - the problem then is that neither of the 2 tree owners might reply to you, for a whole variety of reasons.
One does appear to be a grandson (surname is Crust), so a roundabout approach to ancestors would need to be carried out and fingers crossed that you get a reply.
-
Thanks, I will jump on tonight and see how I go.
Appreciate the help very much.
Traci
-
You may be able to get a 14 day free trial with Ancestry, but do remember to cancel before the end of the 14 days or they will charge you for a year's subscription
Chris
-
Thank you. I did have a free trial a few years back so not sure if they will let me again, but will give it a try.
-
If you do contact any relatives please take it slowly. They may have no idea that Doreen had a baby in 1945.
-
Yes, I will be working on that assumption-=things were a lot different back then. Thanks
-
"...order from the Juvenile Court.". What is the date on this document.
It names the child and mother....confirmed by reference to birth records. Does it give the date of birth?
-
Hi Wivenhoe,
The date is 27/6/45. Yes, names child by birth name and also adopted name. Names both the birth mother and the adoptive parents, and confirms an entry number in the birth register that is a match to the names and date of birth.
Thanks
-
"...The date is 27/6/45."
The date of what.......child's birth.....or date that the document was drawn up / signed?
-
That is the date of the document.
-
Thanks for that....date the document was drawn up.
What date.......day and month...........was your mother's birthday celebrated at home?
Or are you saying that baby was adopted the same day that baby was born?
-
We've already established that the birth was registered in Hammersmith on the March 1/4 of 1945 Reply 51
-
Hi,
No the adoption was when she was 4 months old. She was born on 14/2/45. Yes, Carol 8353 is correct.
Thanks