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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: genealogiepay on Wednesday 22 May 19 15:56 BST (UK)
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Dear Artist,
Pls can anyone brighten-up this photograph and perhaps let me know aprox when this picture was taken?
WJ Pay was born aprox 1830 and died between 1873 and 1881 in London.
Thanx a million:-)
Robin
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Hello Robin,
There was no image attached, you will find the attach button just below the white box in which you type in.
Regards
Sarah :)
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Here's the picture of William James Pay.
Anyone got a clue about when the pic was taken?
Much appreciated ;D
Robin
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It would be good to know if anyone could date this photo and give some idea of how old this man is. (We are looking for him on another thread for Robin ;D )
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It would be good to know if anyone could date this photo and give some idea of how old this man is. (We are looking for him on another thread for Robin ;D )
Yes please - and if Robin could say where the photo came from to attribute to the mysterious William James, that might also help!
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Perhaps the chair and his clothes might help with dating the picture?
:P
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Is the photo from a book? Or newspaper? :-\ Trying to decide - photocopy from something? Hard to see detail of coat lapels etc.
Wiggy
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A tidy up from me
Pat
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Hi
This is a bit difficult to date because it is not very clear. My best guess is 1870s, possibly mid-late 1870s. I have 2 photos dated to that period with similar clothing .
Gadget
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I was thinking along those lines too Gadget . . . . which makes me wonder whether you are sure you have the right person, Genealogiepay. :-\
Wiggy
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Thanks, Wiggy and Gadget for your estimate of date of the photo, and the cleanup is great, Pat!
rosie99 and I have been trying to pin down Robin's William James Pay - so far as we could see from the info, no definite birth date - I would say the man in the photo is in his 60's and if it's 1870-1880, then we're looking at a birthdate of 1800-1810.
Robin, do you have definite confirmation that the picture is of William James Pay?
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I was thinking he looks a bit younger (say 50s) than that; taking into account that he does have a fair bit of hair and his face looks fairly unlined. So, if we take it to 1880, that could be born circa 1830-ish, maybe.
It's very difficult because of the poor quality of the photo. I wonder if Robin might have a go at re-scanning?
Gadget
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A tidy up from me
Pat
Wow. That's a huge improvement.
Thank you very much Pat!
The picture is definately of William James Pay. He was named on the birth certificate of his son William Arthur Pay, born in 1865.
Robin
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The picture is definately of William James Pay. He was named on the birth certificate of his son William Arthur Pay, born in 1865.
Robin
Hi Robin
I don't follow this logic. Although he was named on the birth cert, it doesn't mean that it is a photo of him :-\
Wiggy and I ( see Replies #6 and #8) have dated the photo as 1870s. Does this fit in with your info?
Gadget
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Interesting isn't it.
Waiting to see the proof of how the birth certificate proves the identify of photo. :-\ :-\. Not arguing that W J Pay is father of W A Pay . . . just wondering how you can verify the photo as being W J. :)
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A try from me,John.
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The origin of the picture is an album of an uncle.
The picture i will attach is my gg dad William Arthur Pay (which might need a little clean up too... :P)
On the back side of the pictures is written granddad and great great grand dad.
It just cant be other persons, cos they were of African origin >:(
Once i figured out that my gg dad was WA Pay (Census 1871 and 1881) born in 1865, I got the birth certificate and names of his parents Ada Emily (Lilian?) Smith and William (James) Pay and his brothers and Sisters.
Issue is that my adventurous gg dad named himself Arthur William Pay and Arthur Pay during his South African, USA and Guyana and Surinam travels.
Fact is that he was a mining enigineer who boosted the bauxite industry in Surinam and had wifes and kids in SA, USA and Surinam. >:(
Thanks for all the help so far! Much appreciated :P
Robin
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Hi Robin
have you kept up with the other thread in which Rosie99 and I have done some further research for you?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=751879.36
In quick summary, we were trying to find the details of William James Pay, who is quoted as the father of William Arthur Pay, mother Ada Emily Smith, on the birth certificate.
Rosie99 has established that Ada Emily, who went on to marry George Mungeam Marling, was actually Ada Emily PAY. Rosie has found her in the 1851 and 1861 censuses, and we have her birth reference which fits with the census details of a birth in 1845 in Holborn. See Rosie's post #19 in the above thread.
This may suggest that William James may not have been a Pay.
We have seen your evidence of William Arthur and his travels, and his brother Alfred's post in search of his family.
So this is just to try and find your William James for you.
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Ada Emily was named Pay because she was a widow of William James Pay, when she married George Maling.
On the census of 1871 she was married (named Paye) On the 1881 census she was a widow.
The birth certificates clearly states Ada Emily Pay formerly Smith and William James Pay as parents.
Ill post the birth certificaten asap (on other computer...)
Please hold ;D
Cheers, Robin
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Thanks, Wiggy and Gadget for your estimate of date of the photo, and the cleanup is great, Pat!
rosie99 and I have been trying to pin down Robin's William James Pay - so far as we could see from the info, no definite birth date - I would say the man in the photo is in his 60's and if it's 1870-1880, then we're looking at a birthdate of 1800-1810.
Robin, do you have definite confirmation that the picture is of William James Pay?
He must have died between 1873 (birth of his daughter) and 1881 (census, his wife's a widow).
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Yes, Robin - Rosie99 and I have all these details.
But if you read the other thread I quoted, you will see the correct birth ref for Ada.
Her mother, Mary, was Mary Smith.
She was born Ada PAY and used her mother's maiden name on the children's birth certificates.
Her father was George Pay, a coachman, and she quotes his name on her marriage to George Marling but changes it to Smith to match what she'd previously said.
If you read the other thread which I mentioned, you will see the thought processes.
And yes - William James apparently died before 1881 when Ada is a widow. But the 1874 death for a William James Pay is not the correct one, as that is for an infant of 0 years.
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Here's the picture of William Arthur Pay...
@Rosie: perhaps the posts about his heritage can be moved to the other thread? Ta:-)
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Is the photo from a book? Or newspaper? :-\ Trying to decide - photocopy from something? Hard to see detail of coat lapels etc.
Wiggy
It's a scan or photocopy of a photograph.
Probably taken in Guyana or Surinam around 1925?)
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Thanks, Wiggy and Gadget for your estimate of date of the photo, and the cleanup is great, Pat!
rosie99 and I have been trying to pin down Robin's William James Pay - so far as we could see from the info, no definite birth date - I would say the man in the photo is in his 60's and if it's 1870-1880, then we're looking at a birthdate of 1800-1810.
Robin, do you have definite confirmation that the picture is of William James Pay?
On the back of the back of the photo is written: "gg dad??".
There'a chance that this person is not WA's father, but his grandfather George Pay (1814, Funtington, Sussex :D)
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I've had a go at restoring William Arthur,
Pat
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:D Seasons Greetings, Y'all :-*
Guess being locked down during these days is great for family research. Hope every one of you is still safe and sound.
I think I've found my ggg-father (William King from London ~1835, pls see other threat about WJ Pay).
That makes it more likely that the chubby, bearded chap is my gggg-father George (1814-1891) and not the obviously non existent/made up character WJP.
The other pic with proper tropical fire wood in the back ground is gg-father WA Pay (1865-1941)
Any more accurate datings are very welcome.
Here's some from MH:-)
Grtz,
Robin
copyright image removed
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Hello Robin and Seasons Greetings to you too.
For which of the pics do you need 'a more accurate dating'? Wiggy and I dated the first one as 1870s.
I see that you've put this one through My Heritage's version of the Remini app which uses a large database of portraits to try to match the features of the photo that you submit. These enhancements are not perfect fits.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
Thanks for the advice on Remini:-)
1870 would make the man with a beard a man in his 50's/ 60's I guess?
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I'm having second thoughts about the date of the first photo. It could be more 1890s than 70s. He does look 50s-60s. Have you got a better version?
Gadget
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Only the "improved"/coloured version from MH...Will try this app you advice :o
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No don't put him through Remini - it will only bring up the face. We really need to see more detail on the clothes.
I'll see if I can get something out of it but can't promise.
Gadget
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I can't get enough info out to see the lapels - whether they had braiding or not. I'll see if I can get hold of Jim - its 70s or 90s :-\
I'm leaning to the 1870s again!
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Jim also believes it to be 1870s :)
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Missed or misinterpreted a message and tried to install Remini on old PC. "The Horror"! :'(
Robin
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Than it's still pretty difficult for me to determin who this gentleman is:
1: George Pay (1815-1891, handy with horses (coachman), born in Funtington Sussex)
2: William King (1833 or 35, handy with pints (barman at a public house/licensed victual-er, born in London)
:-\
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Jim also believes it to be 1870s :)
Thanx Inspector G and Jim
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If it was taken 1870s, which we think it was, the 1815 birth would make him 55.
If it was the 1833-35 birth, he would be in his 30s.
I'd say he was George Pay, b. 1815.
Gadget
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That would be my first thought too. Cheers for the help :)