RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: kr236rk on Wednesday 22 May 19 19:24 BST (UK)
-
Hi,
Have the transcript of a George HUNT, born 1841 in Bermondsey, Surrey UK. In 1911 he is living in Camberwell (London) as an army pensioner. His wife is probably one Emily Harriett (nee AUSTIN) born 1846, Chichester, Sussex.
How can I find out which army unit George was in please?
George could be my maternal-side great grandfather.
Many thanks :)
-
Hi, kr236rk
When you say you "Have the transcript" - what do you have a transcript of?
Oft times clues to Army records or regiments can come from birth records of children, or Census.
This is the same George as in 1911, in the two prior Census 1901 and 1891:
1901 CENSUS: At 18 Sandison Street, Peckham, Camberwell
Head: George R. HUNT 60, Mang Ling? , (wash), b Bermondsey (can't work out occupation)
Wife: Emily HUNT 54, b Chichester, Sussex (she has the same occupation dittoed)
Boarder: Charles A BULLIVANT, 27, unm, Cricket Bat maker, b Lambeth
1891 CENSUS: At 57-58 Lodging House, Old Nichol Street,
RG12; Piece: 256; Folio: 11; Page: 18
Head: George HUNT 50, Manager, Lodging House, b Bermondsey
Wife: Emily HUNT 44, b Chichester, Sussex
Did the 1911 Census, say there was ever any children born to their marriage ( this is part of the questions on that Census)?
Note there is a middle initial "R" for George in 1891.
The HUNT-AUSTIN Marriage in 1871 which may or may not be the right couple is:
George HUNT, Full age, Bachelor, Labourer, father; George HUNT, Leather Dresser?
Emily Harriet AUSTIN, Full age, Spinster, of Bermondsey, father: Thomas AUSTIN Dec'd, Carpenter
Married 29 May 1871 at St Paul Bermondsey
Could you share details of the generation you do know about, the maternal side grandparent, whom you think may be the child of the above George HUNT of 1891-1911?
Cheers
AMBLY
-
When you say you "Have the transcript" - what do you have a transcript of?
Could you share details of the generation you do know about, the maternal side grandparent, whom you think may be the child of the above George HUNT of 1891-1911?
Thanks Ambly,
Better take this one stage at a time.
Found this transcript at FindMyPast.
George HUNT, Head, Married 1872, 70, b.1841, Bermondsey, Occupation: Army Pensioner, 18 Sandison Street, Peckham, Camberwell. Others in household: Emily HUNT. Census 1911. Reg dist 27, Enum dist 2, Dist No. 2, subdistrict Peckham, sub dist no. 6.
No mention of children but as a pensioner any children may have left the household.
A certain George HUNT 'soldier' was my great grandfather who had a liaison with Louisa POWELL [bc.1840] my great grandmother resulting in the birth of Louisa Mary POWELL [b.1859], my grandmother - who took her mother's surname because there was no marriage. (Birth dates edited / amended).
The 'Mary' in my grandmother's name is unexplained, I can't see any related Powell with this name at this time.
Born 1859, Louisa Powell's parents were Thomas POWELL [b.1798] and Charlotte WILLOUGHBY [bc.1800], perhaps the Mary name comes from this part of the family line?
-
A certain George HUNT 'soldier' was my great grandfather who had a liaison with Louisa POWELL [b.1859] my great grandmother resulting in the birth of Louisa Mary POWELL [bc.1840], my grandmother
Have you got the birth years the wrong way round?
-
Apologies, I will check those dates.
This is the same George as in 1911, in the two prior Census 1901 and 1891:
1901 CENSUS: At 18 Sandison Street, Peckham, Camberwell
Head: George R. HUNT 60, Mang Ling? , (wash), b Bermondsey (can't work out occupation)
Wife: Emily HUNT 54, b Chichester, Sussex (she has the same occupation dittoed)
Boarder: Charles A BULLIVANT, 27, unm, Cricket Bat maker, b Lambeth
...
There are several references to laundry work on the paternal side of the family, so 'the wash' & mangling make sense in that context I feel.
A maker of cricket bats (I have this listed as 'toy' on a 1901 census transcript) is unskilled work, like working in the wash.
Bullivant is an unusual name of French origin, there is a reference to it here. I include it because Travellers were also identified with unskilled work, like the laundries.
1881 Census for Tin Smiths in England: "Thomas Bullivant Ann, Bc 1853 Sheffield, Yorkshire, England Head Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire"
http://romanyconnections.wikifoundry.com/page/1881+Census+Tinsmiths+%26+White+smiths%3A (http://romanyconnections.wikifoundry.com/page/1881+Census+Tinsmiths+%26+White+smiths%3A)
-
A certain George HUNT 'soldier' was my great grandfather who had a liaison with Louisa POWELL [b.1859] my great grandmother resulting in the birth of Louisa Mary POWELL [bc.1840], my grandmother
Have you got the birth years the wrong way round?
It appears so, yes: the similar names confuse me and I am not very good with figures.
Louisa POWELL [bc.1840] my great grandmother & Louisa Mary POWELL [b.1859], my grandmother. My grandmother moved from Hampstead (Middlesex) to Bromley (Kent) where she remained; I remember her well in her very Victorian room at Bromley. The reason for the move to Kent is a mystery.
-
The 1861 "worldwide army index" lists 16 British Army soldiers named George Hunt.
-
Found this transcript at FindMyPast.
George HUNT, Head, Married 1872, 70, b.1841, Bermondsey, Occupation: Army Pensioner,
18 Sandison Street, Peckham, Camberwell.
Others in household:
Emily HUNT
Census 1911. Reg dist 27, Enum dist 2, Dist No. 2, subdistrict Peckham, sub dist no. 6.
No mention of children but as a pensioner any children may have left the household.
Don't know if this relates to the above George Hunt a marriage on 10 January 1892 at St John Fitzroy Sq London
George HUNT 45 widow occ Pensioner 9 H(or?)land Street father George occ publican
Emily LANTZKE 36 widow 30 (H?)land Street father George GOLDRING (dec’d) Goldbeater
Witnesses William Bould?nt & Annie Goldring
Emily Goldring married John Frederick William Lantzke on 29 Dec 1878 at All Souls Church
EDIT
Opps ::) I've just noticed years married (39) - so probably no connection to your George
-
Hi
Thanks for clarifying the family connections.
Although there was no marriage between George HUNT and Louisa POWELL, were they know to have lived together at any time as in a state of marriage? Just wondering, where George HUNT's name was recorded as the father of Louisa Mary POWELL - was it on her 1859 Birth Certificate?
Cheers
AMBLY
-
Hi
Thanks for clarifying the family connections.
Although there was no marriage between George HUNT and Louisa POWELL, were they know to have lived together at any time as in a state of marriage?
Just wondering, where George HUNT's name was recorded as the father of Louisa Mary POWELL - was it on her 1859 Birth Certificate?
Here baptism record
Louisa Mary Powell born 13th Oct 1859
Baptism 6 Nov 1859 Hampstead St John, Camden
Mother: Louisa & G (has been crossed out)
Louisa Mary POWELL - (Gro Indexes mn blank)
1859 D Quarter in HAMPSTEAD Volume 01A Page 484
-
Silly O'Clock here, so chucking this in and off to bed ;D
I think the following is the family of the George HUNT of the 1911 (1901, 1891) Census AND that he is indeed the 1871 Marriage between George HUNT and Emily Harriet AUSTIN:
MARRIAGE of his parents:
Mar Qtr 1840, Bermondsey
George HUNT & Susannah NORTH
BIRTHS of their children, all registered Bermondsey, up to 1852:
(and recalling the 1891 Census, the middle initial 'R' of George)
George Richard HUNT, Sep Qtr 1840, mms NORTH
James HUNT Jun Qtr 1845, mms NORTH
Caroline HUNT Jun Qtr 1847 mms NORTH
John HUNT, Sep Qtr 1849, mms NORTH
Henry HUNT, Sep Qtr 1852 mms NORTH
CENSUS 1841: At Great George Street, in this dwelling are:
Richard JOHNSON, 35, Leather Dresser - Y
Elizabeth JOHNSON 35, - Y
/
George HUNT 20, Labourer - Y
Susannah HUNT 20 - Y
George HUNT 9 mths - Y/
Plus a man FOSTER, a couple LANG, and a woman FOSTER
(Note: 1841, same address as marriage)
CENSUS 1851: At 21 Rose Court, Bermondsey
Head: George HUNT 32, Labourer, b
Wife: Hannah HUNT 29,
Son: George 10
Dau: Caroline 4,
Son: John 1
Looks like Susannah, preferred a pet form "Hannah"
CENSUS 1861: At 46 Gedling Street, Bermondsey
Head: George HUNT 42, Leather Dresser
Wife: Mrs HUNT 39, Stay Maker,
Dau: Caroline 14, Mantle Maker,
Son: Wm, 7, Scholar
Son: Alfred 6,
Son: Chas, 8months
ALL born Bermondsey
Note: George HUNT in 1871 Marriage said his father was a leather dresser.
CENSUS 1871: At 46 Gedling Street, Bermondsey (same as in 1861)
Head: Mr HUNT 52, Leather Dyer
Wife: Hannah HUNT 49,
Son: G HUNT 30, unm, Labourer
Son: A HUNT 12, Labourer
Son: C HUNT 10 Scholar
Dau: L HUNT 8,
ALL born Bermondsey
So the son George Richard HUNT is not in the family home in 1861 but is back there - unmarried - in 1871 (which ties in with him being about to marry Emily Harriett Austin).
So finding him in 1861 (was he in the Army for a short stint from about 1858, then out before 1871?) and 1881 (or was he in the Army at this time?).
His middle name, if he was in the Army and if he used the middle name, might be of use.
Cheers
AMBLY
-
The 'Mary' in my grandmother's name is unexplained, I can't see any related Powell with this name at this time. Born 1859,
Louisa Powell's parents were Thomas POWELL [b.1798] and Charlotte WILLOUGHBY [bc.1800], perhaps the Mary name comes from this part of the family line?
She could have been given the middle name 'MARY' after Mary Elizabeth TOOMES who appears to be the sister of Louisa Powell born c1842
1861 census Piece: 93 Folio: 164 Page Number: 29
John TOOMES 39 St George in the East, horse keeper
Mary Elizabeth Toomes wife 29 Southgate occ laundress
Louisa POWELL 19 sister in law Hampstead
Louisa Mary Powell 1 niece Hampstead
Mary Elizabeth POWELL Baptism 15 Jan 1832
Norwood Green St Mary the Virgin, Ealing, England
Father: Thomas Powell Mother: Charlotte
There is this marriage entry but after the 1861 census
Dec 1862 Pancras
John Edward TOOMES
Female name on same page
Mary Elizabeth POWELL
Mary Elizabeth POWELL married on 26 Nov 1862 at St Pancras Chapel, Camden
Father: Thomas Powell dec'd
Spouse: John Edward TOOMES occ coachman father same name dec'd
EDIT - Louisa Powell Jnr. surname transcribed as TOOMES on 1871c (original it's dittoed)
RG10; Piece: 190; Folio: 39; Page: 27
John E TOOMES 53 coach man
Mary E " 38 Southall
Louisa M " 11 niece Hampstead
-
Louisa's marriage mentions father as George HUNT
Louisa Mary POWELL age 23 father George HUNT occ Soldier
Marriage 25 Mar 1883 Christ Church, Hampstead, Camden
Spouse: John INNELL 23 occ barman father John, waiter
-
The 1861 "worldwide army index" lists 16 British Army soldiers named George Hunt.
Thank you. I did find a George Hunt soldier record recently, but it was the wrong family - he was from Uxbridge in Middlesex.
Btw, have now been able to look at the 1911 Census re. George HUNT x Emily [nee] AUSTIN marriage and it says there were no children.
-
Thank you. I did find a George Hunt soldier record recently, but it was the wrong family - he was from Uxbridge in Middlesex
How do you know which George Hunt was Louisa's father?
-
Don't know if this relates to the above George Hunt a marriage on 10 January 1892 at St John Fitzroy Sq London
George HUNT 45 widow occ Pensioner 9 H(or?)land Street father George occ publican
Emily LANTZKE 36 widow 30 (H?)land Street father George GOLDRING (dec’d) Goldbeater
Witnesses William Bould?nt & Annie Goldring
Emily Goldring married John Frederick William Lantzke on 29 Dec 1878 at All Souls Church
EDIT
Opps ::) I've just noticed years married (39) - so probably no connection to your George
Thanks Ladyhawk, it rings no bells. Is there no T/Y button for RootsChat please? :)
-
Thank you. I did find a George Hunt soldier record recently, but it was the wrong family - he was from Uxbridge in Middlesex
How do you know which George Hunt was Louisa's father?
I don't thanks, but the dates for the Uxbridge soldier were too early.
-
Here baptism record
Louisa Mary Powell born 13th Oct 1859
Baptism 6 Nov 1859 Hampstead St John, Camden
Mother: Louisa & G (has been crossed out)
Louisa Mary POWELL - (Gro Indexes mn blank)
1859 D Quarter in HAMPSTEAD Volume 01A Page 484
Affirm :) I wonder what the mother Louisa & G (crossed out) signified, if anything?
-
Louisa's marriage mentions father as George HUNT
Louisa Mary POWELL age 23 father George HUNT occ Soldier
Marriage 25 Mar 1883 Christ Church, Hampstead, Camden
Spouse: John INNELL 23 occ barman father John, waiter
YES! That's the right family :)
-
Hi
Thanks for clarifying the family connections.
Although there was no marriage between George HUNT and Louisa POWELL, were they know to have lived together at any time as in a state of marriage? Just wondering, where George HUNT's name was recorded as the father of Louisa Mary POWELL - was it on her 1859 Birth Certificate?
Cheers
AMBLY
Yes, I have a copy of the birth certificate of Louisa Powell 1859, that was the shock discovery decades ago that the HUNT surname features in the family, no-one knew this. I do not know what the relationship was, casual or long-term? Louisa Powell's family appears to be associated with the laundries at Hampstead at this time. Louisa Powell's father was an 'ostler' a horse-keeper, stables man at Hampstead, Thomas Powell born 1798. It took me about 10 years or longer to find his home county which was Surrey, born in Southwark.
-
...the son George Richard HUNT is not in the family home in 1861 but is back there - unmarried - in 1871 (which ties in with him being about to marry Emily Harriett Austin).
So finding him in 1861 (was he in the Army for a short stint from about 1858, then out before 1871?) and 1881 (or was he in the Army at this time?).
His middle name, if he was in the Army and if he used the middle name, might be of use.
Thanks AMBLY, this may well help!
It also suggests there may have been a Richard in the family somewhere, giving George his middle name?
-
Not that this helps finding George Hunt soldier/army pensioner but did Louisa Mary Powell
marry a second time - if so, was her father also named as George Hunt on this marriage cert.
and what was his occupation?
-
The 'Mary' in my grandmother's name is unexplained, I can't see any related Powell with this name at this time. Born 1859,
Louisa Powell's parents were Thomas POWELL [b.1798] and Charlotte WILLOUGHBY [bc.1800], perhaps the Mary name comes from this part of the family line?
She could have been given the middle name 'MARY' after Mary Elizabeth TOOMES who appears to be the sister of Louisa Powell born c1842
...
This is excellent, thank you! - I came across the TOOMES (means Tom's [child]) reference some while ago, but it's gone to the back of my mind. Look at the horse references also, Thomas Powell [b.1798] was a horse-keeper :)
-
Not that this helps finding George Hunt soldier/army pensioner but did Louisa Mary Powell
marry a second time - if so, was her father also named as George Hunt on this marriage cert.
and what was his occupation?
Louisa Powell [bc.1841] married a George BENWELL in 1861, that's all I know at the moment.
Louisa Mary Powell [b.1859] married John INNELL in 1883, who was related to the Innell hansom cab-varnishing family of Victorian London. I have no record of Louisa Mary Powell marrying a second time.
-
[Louisa Mary Powell] could have been given the middle name 'MARY' after Mary Elizabeth TOOMES who appears to be the sister of Louisa Powell born c1842
There are several variants of the Toomes surname including THOMAS, TOMS, TIMMS, TOOMEY, THAMES, TOON, TOOMBS, TOWNES, TOMES and THOMS.
https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/TOOMES
Found this reference to a Southwark TOOMEY born in Warwickshire. Thomas Powell the father of Louisa Powell was born in Southwark - although there is no direct relation here.
"John Toomey[,] Sarah [spouse], Bc 1835 Worcestershire, England Head Southwark St George Martyr, London"
http://romanyconnections.wikifoundry.com/page/1881+Census+Hawkers+born+Worcestershire%3A (http://romanyconnections.wikifoundry.com/page/1881+Census+Hawkers+born+Worcestershire%3A)
-
Louisa's marriage mentions father as George HUNT
Louisa Mary POWELL age 23 father George HUNT occ Soldier
Marriage 25 Mar 1883 Christ Church, Hampstead, Camden
Spouse: John INNELL 23 occ barman father John, waiter
YES! That's the right family :)
This is the reason I queried a second marriage for Louisa Mary Powell/Innell
Dec 1915
Louisa M INNELL
Name on same page
John PENSOTTI
Louisa Mary PENSOTTI Birth year 1860
Age at death 72y
Burial date 20 Jan 1932
Burial place Morden Parish, Surrey County, England
Street address 11 Kersley Street
Residence Battersea Place Morden Parish County Surrey
London Electoral register has John & Louisa Mary PENSOTTI living at 11 Kersley Street Battersea from 1918 also at this address in 1929/1930 is Ethel Adelaide INELL (dau of John Inell & Louisa)
Her bpt along with sister Louisa
Ethel Adelaide & Louisa Mary INNELL were both baptised
25 Nov 1883 Hampstead Christ Church Camden,
Father John, waiter Mother Louisa Mary
1891 Piece 173 Folio 176
John INELL 30
Louisa 30 Hampstead
Ethel 9 Hampstead
Louisa 6
John 1
Alice 7 wks
Not found Ethel to confirm mmn
INNELL, LOUISA MARY mmn POWELL
1883 D Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 354
NNELL, ADA MINNIE mmn POWELL - Ada died age 4
1886 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 391
INELL, JOHN EDWARD mmn POWELL
1889 J Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 411
INNELL, ALICE ELIZABETH mmn POWELL
1891 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 452
-
Louisa Powell [bc.1841] married a George BENWELL in 1861, that's all I know at the moment.
The witnesses to this 1861 marriage were John Edward & Mary Elizabeth TOOMES
The possible 2nd marriage I was referring to was her daughter Louisa Mary Powell
-
This is the reason I queried a second marriage for Louisa Mary Powell/Innell
Dec 1915
Louisa M INNELL
Name on same page
John PENSOTTI
Louisa Mary PENSOTTI Birth year 1860
Age at death 72y
Burial date 20 Jan 1932
Burial place Morden Parish, Surrey County, England
Street address 11 Kersley Street
Residence Battersea Place Morden Parish County Surrey
London Electoral register has John & Louisa PENSOTTI living at 11 Kersley Street Battersea from 1918 also at this address in 1929 Ethel Adelaide INELL (dau of John Inell & Louisa)
Her bpt along with sister Louisa
Ethel Adelaide & Louisa Mary INNELL were both baptised
25 Nov 1883 Hampstead Christ Church Camden,
Father John Mother Louisa Mary
1891 Piece 173 Folio 176
John INELL 30
Louisa 30 Hampstead
Ethel 9 Hampstead
Louisa 6
John 1
Alice 7 wks
Not found Ethel to confirm mmn
INNELL, LOUISA MARY mmn POWELL
1883 D Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 354
NNELL, ADA MINNIE mmn POWELL - Ada died age 4
1886 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 391
INELL, JOHN EDWARD mmn POWELL
1889 J Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 411
INNELL, ALICE ELIZABETH mmn POWELL
1891 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 452
Yes, you are correct - thank you. I was kindly given the PENSOTTI surname association some while ago, but it did not sink in. What does it all mean please - the name-change & everything?
My parents used to to take me to visit Ethel at Battersea when I was very small, she was of an advanced age in those days, I think living in an alms house. I was told Ethel was my grandmother's sister or something like that?
-
Yes, you are correct - thank you.
I was kindly given the PENSOTTI surname association some while ago, but it did not sink in.
What does it all mean please - the name-change & everything?
I would assume that Louisa Mary Powell's husband John Edward Innell has died and she remarried
Dec 1915
Innell Louisa M Pensotti Wandsworth 1d 2070
Pensotti John Innell Wandsworth 1d 2070
The marriage doesn't appear to be online to check who she has named as her father
EDIT - possible death of husband John
Jun 1911
Innell John age 51 Hampstead 1a 337
-
John & Louisa Mary's daughter Winifred gives address as 11 Kersely Street when she marries in 1921
Winifred Sarah Innell age 22 address 11 Kersley Street married Francis George Watson on 17th Dec 1921 in Battersea her father John Innell deceased
-
John & Louisa Mary's daughter Winifred gives address as 11 Kersely Street when she marries in 1921
Winifred Sarah Innell age 22 address 11 Kersley Street married Francis George Watson on 17th Dec 1921 in Battersea her father John Innell deceased
Understood, thank you.
So I may have Watson relatives?
-
There is a "George Hunt, Shoeing Smith, 1882, Life Guards" listed at the below link, which is interesting in the context of the leather-working profession which comes up for this family?
George Hunt 'soldier' appears as the father of Louisa Mary Powell (age 23) on her marriage certificate of 1883, to John Innell of Hampstead.
Properly, the term ought to be 'trooper' if so, but I doubt such fine detail was observed all the time?
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/namesearch/?FirstName=George&Surname=HUNT&RecordType=VictorianConflicts&RecordDateStartYear=1857&RecordDateEndYear=1899&Step=1 (https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/namesearch/?FirstName=George&Surname=HUNT&RecordType=VictorianConflicts&RecordDateStartYear=1857&RecordDateEndYear=1899&Step=1)
Correction: I'm wrong - 'shoeing-smith' seems to be an alternative name for a farrier.
-
He's also listed here as:
No.847 Shoeing Smith, HUNT, George, Egyptian Campaign 1882.
Very few searches seem to recognise or show second names.
https://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_household_cavalry/2nd_life_guards_1882_egypt_campaign.htm (https://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_household_cavalry/2nd_life_guards_1882_egypt_campaign.htm)
Is there limited library access to any of these armed forces sites please?
Thank you.
-
I have a possible result for George Hunt's father from a source unrelated to RootsChatCom. I haven't got the details for this information. The result is as follows. My comments in brackets -
Marriage: 23 March 1840 St George, Camberwell, Southwark
George Hunt, Full Age, Bachelor, [Profession?] Spinner, George Street, [groom’s father?] James Hunt, Grinder
Susannah North [bride's maiden name?], Full Age, Spinster, George Street, [bride’s father?] John North, Corn? Porter?
Wit: C Stevens, Mary Ann North
By Banns. Groom & Bride sign X
Suddenly had a thought about what father & son's profession was at this stage, were they street knife-grinders, one of the recorders must have been at a loss to describe this occupation so they put down 'spinner' to describe the grinding wheel?
Knife grinders were a common sight in Victorian London, this image from the 30's probably shows one Bert Smith, a Romany knife grinder.
https://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/work/TGA/TGA-201011/TGA-201011-3-1-123-9-1_10.jpg (https://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/work/TGA/TGA-201011/TGA-201011-3-1-123-9-1_10.jpg)
-
Don’t know about spinner. It’s really not clear on the image which is on Ancestry.
Clip attached
-
If your George Hunt was still serving with the army in 1861, he will be one of these:
754 Trooper 1st Dragoons
1459 Trooper 7th Hussars
582 Private 2nd Coldstream Guards
6393 Private 2nd Coldstream Guards
537 Private 29th Foot
3661 Private 30th Foot
2037 Drummer / Fifer 45th Foot Depot
558 Private 62nd Foot Depot
2369/891/1653 Private 107th Foot
790 Gunner 3rd Brigade R.A.
343 Corporal 5th Brigade R.A.
903 Gunner 5th Brigade R.A.
1043 Gunner Coast Brigade R.A.
471 Trooper 7th Dragoon Guards
4372 Gunner Horse Brigade R.A.
Cross referencing this list with "Stations of the British Army" for January 1859 (Louisa born 9 months later) allows us to eliminate those soldiers whose units were overseas or otherwise distant from London at the time of the liaison. This leaves us with the two soldiers in the 2nd Coldstream Guards, and the artillerymen, which I have highlighted in bold.
-
Don’t know about spinner. It’s really not clear on the image which is on Ancestry.
Many thanks, 'skinner' - ?
-
If your George Hunt was still serving with the army in 1861, he will be one of these:
754 Trooper 1st Dragoons
1459 Trooper 7th Hussars
582 Private 2nd Coldstream Guards
6393 Private 2nd Coldstream Guards
537 Private 29th Foot
3661 Private 30th Foot
2037 Drummer / Fifer 45th Foot Depot
558 Private 62nd Foot Depot
2369/891/1653 Private 107th Foot
790 Gunner 3rd Brigade R.A.
343 Corporal 5th Brigade R.A.
903 Gunner 5th Brigade R.A.
1043 Gunner Coast Brigade R.A.
471 Trooper 7th Dragoon Guards
4372 Gunner Horse Brigade R.A.
Cross referencing this list with "Stations of the British Army" for January 1859 (Louisa born 9 months later) allows us to eliminate those soldiers whose units were overseas or otherwise distant from London at the time of the liaison. This leaves us with the two soldiers in the 2nd Coldstream Guards, and the artillerymen, which I have highlighted in bold.
Thanks, so you would suggest the previous post 'shoeing-smith' was overseas at the time of the signing of the marriage certificate?
How would I access these records please, is there limited library access, such as with FindMyPast census transcriptions, for example?
-
Thanks, so you would suggest the previous post 'shoeing-smith' was overseas at the time of the signing of the marriage certificate?
He would only have been 3 years old when Louisa Mary was born. He's in the 1881 census at Regents Park Barracks, aged 25.
-
How would I access these records please, is there limited library access, such as with FindMyPast census transcriptions, for example?
The "Worldwide Army Indexes" are compiled from muster books and paylists and are searchable on FindMyPast and The Genealogist. "Stations of the British Army " were published monthly in 19th century newspapers.
-
Thanks.
Am lost. When I go to the FindMyPast British Army, Worldwide Index I just get endless lists of thousands of George Hunts without regiment details or service numbers. How do I refine my search to the George Hunt details you kindly found please?
754 Trooper 1st Dragoons
1459 Trooper 7th Hussars
582 Private 2nd Coldstream Guards
6393 Private 2nd Coldstream Guards
537 Private 29th Foot
3661 Private 30th Foot
2037 Drummer / Fifer 45th Foot Depot
558 Private 62nd Foot Depot
2369/891/1653 Private 107th Foot
790 Gunner 3rd Brigade R.A.
343 Corporal 5th Brigade R.A.
903 Gunner 5th Brigade R.A.
1043 Gunner Coast Brigade R.A.
471 Trooper 7th Dragoon Guards
4372 Gunner Horse Brigade R.A.
For example, when I search Military, armed forces & conflict at FindMyPast, inserting the known record for a Private, Soldier No.582, Regiment: 2nd Coldstream Guards, Britain, England - there can be only one person for this number, it should tell me George Hunt. Instead I get "No Result Found"
Perplexed.
Please advise.
Thank you.
-
Am lost. When I go to the FindMyPast British Army, Worldwide Index I just get endless lists of thousands of George Hunts without regiment details or service numbers. How do I refine my search to the George Hunt details you kindly found please?
I don't know what you are doing to get "thousands" of hits. If you have a sub and are logged in, and search the 1861 Worldwide Army Index for George Hunt, you should get just 16 hits, one of which (3661) is duplicated.
For example, when I search Military, armed forces & conflict at FindMyPast, inserting the known record for a Private, Soldier No.582, Regiment: 2nd Coldstream Guards, Britain, England - there can be only one person for this number, it should tell me George Hunt. Instead I get "No Result Found"
You are putting in too much information. Never use the "regiment" field in FindMyPast. If you just put in the name Hunt, Soldier Number 582, you will get 3 hits, one of which is his service record. That will tell you that he was in the Oxford Militia until February 1860 so he is unlikely to be the man you seek.
-
Many thanks,
On Monday 27 May I asked was there UK library access for the searchable Worldwide Army Indexes, & I have yet to receive a response.
Currently the public library is my access to FindMyPast on a limited membership basis - free subscription.
Please advise.
Attached is the current result, following the instructions you kindly post.
-
Update.
Subsequent FindMyPast search successful :)
Posting for the benefit of others.
Worldwide Army Index 1861 > HUNT (name) > search > 3,000,000 results > adv search > select 'Military Armed' search > insert soldier no.582 > 3 results.
With thanks.
-
George HUNT
Pension Admission or Examination Age: 42
Discharge Age: 42
Birth Year: abt 1838
Birth Place: Bicester, Oxford
Pension Admission or Examination Date: 2 Mar 1880
Discharge Date: 2 Mar 1880
Regiment: Coldm Guards
Rank: Corporal
Regimental Number: 582
Index only on Anc*y - view original image on Fold3
a possible marriage & census for above George
1861 RG 9; Piece: 435; Folio: 11; Page: 17
Foot Guards Detachment, North Camp Aldershot
George HUNT Private age 23 Bicester Oxford occ Soldier
George Henry HUNT f/a Soldier Coldstream Guards, Wellington Barrack Westminster
father John, Wheelwright
married Frances Julia YORK on 31st May 1863 at St Paul Southwark
1871 RG10; Piece: 129; Folio: 98; Page: 42
George HUNT age 33 born Bister Oxford gives his occ Corpl. C Guards
Frances wife 29, George 3, John 8 mths
There's also these records on Fold3
George HUNT
Pension Admission or Examination Age: 34
Birth Year: abt 1836
Birth Place: Newington, Southwask, Surrey
Pension Admission or Examination Date: 9 Aug 1870
Regiment: Royal Artillery 3rd Bde.
Rank: G.
Regimental Number: 790
George HUNT
Discharge Date: 8 Jul 1871
Regiment: Coldstream Regiment of Guards
Rank: Private
-
Many thanks.
The above results do not match what I know of the Bermondsey-based George Hunt.
1911 Census: 18 Sandison St., Peckham SE, Camberwell
George Hunt, Head.Mar, 70, Army Pensioner, Bermondsey London b.1841
Emily Herriett Hunt, Wife, 64, Home, Chichester b.1847
Married: 39yrs 0 Children.
Trouble is, only one of the results I was given earlier have the individual's date of birth, & that one doesn't match the Bermondsey census information.
-
The above results do not match what I know of the Bermondsey-based George Hunt.
1911 Census: 18 Sandison St., Peckham SE, Camberwell
George Hunt, Head.Mar, 70, Army Pensioner, Bermondsey London b.1841
Emily Herriett Hunt, Wife, 64, Home, Chichester b.1847
Married: 39yrs 0 Children.
Trouble is, only one of the results I was given earlier have the individual's date of birth, & that one doesn't match the Bermondsey census information.
If this George was married for 39 years then he married in 1862.
A George Hunt (soldier) is recorded as the [unmarried] father of Louisa Mary Powell, in 1883 his name and occupation appears on Louisa Mary's marriage certificate - she married a John Innell.
The soldier George would have had an affair with Louisa Mary's mother, Louisa Powell bc 1841. Louisa Powell was the daughter of a Thomas Powell b.1798 in Southwark, Surrey.
So George would have fathered Louisa Mary circa 1860; so this Bermondsey George looks likely to me, and he gets formally married two years later on, but to Emily Herriett (Austin).
He was definitely in the army - we have the 1911 census proof:-
"George Hunt, Head.Mar, 70, Army Pensioner, Bermondsey London. b.1841"
-
The above results do not match what I know of the Bermondsey-based George Hunt.
No they don't, but they shouldn't be discounted either - as we are only supposing Bermondsey George could be Louisa Mary's father. He may very well not be. I quite like the look of the George Hunt born Newington, Southwark, Surrey, listed above, but any of them could be Louisa's father.
.......what I know of the Bermondsey-based George Hunt.
1911 Census: 18 Sandison St., Peckham SE, Camberwell
George Hunt, Head.Mar, 70, Army Pensioner, Bermondsey London b.1841
Emily Herriett Hunt, Wife, 64, Home, Chichester b.1847
Married: 39yrs 0 Children.
Trouble is, only one of the results I was given earlier have the individual's date of birth, & that one doesn't match the Bermondsey census information.
If this George was married for 39 years then he married in 1862.
<snip> So George would have fathered Louisa Mary circa 1860; so this Bermondsey George looks likely to me, and he gets formally married two years later on, but to Emily Herriett (Austin).
No, Bermondsey George Hunt and wife Emily Harriet who have been married 39 years in 1911 - that's married circa 1872 - not 1862 :)
And Louisa Mary was born 13 Oct 1859, so she was likely conceived January 1859 (or very late Dec 1858), not 1860.
My previous reply #, I gave you their 1871 marriage:
George HUNT, Full age, Bachelor, Labourer, father; George HUNT, Leather Dresser
Emily Harriet AUSTIN, Full age, Spinster, of Bermondsey, father: Thomas AUSTIN Dec'd, Carpenter
Married 29 May 1871 at St Paul Bermondsey
Bermondsey George is born around 1840/41 according to these Census:
1911: age 70
1901: age 60
1891: age 50
1881: age 40 (mis-enumerated as 'George R Flint', living in Bermondsey)
On another reply, I detailed who I think is very probably Bermondsey George HUNT, his parents, their marriage ref. (and you have their actual 1840 marriage details), his birth, his birth family their Census 1841, 1851, 1861, 1871, that is: the son of George HUNT snr and Susannah/Hannah NORTH:
1840: Marriage of parents
1840: Birth of him, George Richard HUNT, Sep Qtr 1840
1841: Census, age 9mths
1851: Census, age 10 yrs
(1861: Census missing, not at home with parents) would be age 20
1871: Census, age 30 years, Census date 2 April.
So it all fits perfectly, with ages, birth dates and so on. And in my opinion, there's quite a bit of evidence to say 1881-1911 George is very likely to be the same 1840-1871 George.
But that's only half the battle, as then tying that George up as being Louisa Mary's father - or discounting him - is proving much harder to do.
A possible, neat Scenario is:
1858: Bermondsey George HUNT has a liasion with Louisa POWELL, results in pregnancy.
1858/1859: George joins the Army age 18, probably for 12 Years. Possibly posted out of England.
1859: Daughter, Louisa Mary POWELL is born.
1862: Louisa POWELL marries George BENWELL
1870-1871: George's 12 years are up. He leaves the Army.
1872: George marries Emily HUNT. They have no children.
Again, that is just a scenario idea. If we could find Bermondsey George's regiment, that may help - but to match him as the father of Louisa Mary POWELL, we'd need corroborating evidence, such as finding the Regiment of the George HUNT who is her father. Her baptism is of no use, unfortunately. What about her actual Birth certificate - do you have that? Also her second marriage, might have info.
The fact Louisa Mary gave his actual name on her 1st Marriage, and that it looks like her mother tried to have his name added to the baptism (probably kyboshed by the church official) - might indicate they actually had a relationship.
Of all the George HUNTS in the Army lists, trying to find one that fits with an 1858-ish attestation and a discharge by 1871 to match Bermondsey George, is also difficult. Because we can't find him in 1861, the inference is, he's possibly still in the Army at that time therefore looking for a discharge between 1861 and 1871.
Cheers
AMBLY
-
I quite like the look of the George Hunt born Newington, Southwark, Surrey, listed above, but any of them could be Louisa's father.
Gunner George Hunt 790: attested 3 December 1858 aged 23; discharged in Quebec 1870 suffering from epilepsy; lived thereafter in Canada.
-
I quite like the look of the George Hunt born Newington, Southwark, Surrey, listed above, but any of them could be Louisa's father.
Gunner George Hunt 790: attested 3 December 1858 aged 23; discharged in Quebec 1870 suffering from epilepsy; lived thereafter in Canada.
Thanks Shaun,
Are you saying that this Southwark George is then not the man I am researching please - he can be removed from the list?
-
Again, that is just a scenario idea. If we could find Bermondsey George's regiment, that may help - but to match him as the father of Louisa Mary POWELL, we'd need corroborating evidence, such as finding the Regiment of the George HUNT who is her father. Her baptism is of no use, unfortunately. What about her actual Birth certificate - do you have that? Also her second marriage, might have info.
Thanks Ambly,
I make a lot of mistakes with dates, apologies.
Louisa Mary POWELL - her birth certificate. Yes, I have it.
-
Are you saying that this Southwark George is then not the man I am researching please - he can be removed from the list?
Certainly not. He remains one of several possibilities for Louisa Mary's father.
I would rule out the Coldstream Guardsman number 582. He was still in the militia in Oxford at the time of conception.
-
Louisa Mary Powell's second marriage - that was to John PENSOTTI (marr 1915) please? I have that certificate on order.
This gets confusing.
Louisa POWELL is the mother of illegitimate daughter (born 1859) Louisa Mary POWELL, by one George HUNT (soldier), according to a registrar in 1883. Louisa POWELL then went on to marry one George BENWELL in 1861.
Louisa Mary POWELL (daughter, Hampstead) marries John INNELL in 1883 & subsequently John PENSOTTI in 1915.
Louisa POWELL (mother, Hampstead) is recorded as living at Flask Walk. There were laundries here, probably quite well paid work considering the clientele in this area of London.
Louisa POWELL's parents lived in Flask Walk, Thomas POWELL (horse-keeper) & Charlotte POWELL [nee WILLOUGHBY], in a census for 1841 Middlesex. Charlotte (now Head of family) is recorded as 'washerwoman' in the 1851 census for Flask Walk by which time Thomas has died.
So there is a suggestion of a family tradition here - men with horses and women working in laundries. Thomas POWELL is born in Southwark (1798) so he has migrated to North London, presumably for economic reasons.
-
Are you saying that this Southwark George is then not the man I am researching please - he can be removed from the list?
Certainly not. He remains one of several possibilities for Louisa Mary's father.
I would rule out the Coldstream Guardsman number 582. He was still in the militia in Oxford at the time of conception.
Okay thanks :)
-
Given the circumstances, when you know so little about the identity of Louisa Mary's father (and even the name George Hunt could be an invention), have you considered DNA matching? (Not that I know much about it !)
-
Given the circumstances, when you know so little about the identity of Louisa Mary's father (and even the name George Hunt could be an invention), have you considered DNA matching? (Not that I know much about it !)
Thanks, am a little wary of the science - is it reliable please?
-
Louisa Mary Powell's second marriage - that was to John PENSOTTI (marr 1915) please? I have that certificate on order.
But this was what I received from the GRO:
"Marriage Certificate: JOHN PENSOTTI & LOUISA INNELL married 01-JAN-1915 in WANDSWORTH We have been unable to process your application... We have searched the indexes for events registered in England and Wales during the years specified (1914-1916). We have been unable to find an entry that matches all the details supplied in your application."
Any ideas please?
Thanks.
-
Did you give GRO the correct information?
They were married in the fourth quarter of 1915 - October November December - Wandsworth volume: 1d
Page: 2070
-
Negative. I was advised by GRO to put "January 1st" down if I didn't know the quarter - which I didn't - & they would find the certificate, that's what it says on their guidance notes. If you are telling me that you have found the correct certificate reference & that they can't, then they appear to be a) incompetent and b) have walked away with my money after a partial refund. This leaves me both angry & disappointed - I followed their instructions to the last dotted 'I' and crossed 'T'. I made a GRO transaction in good faith for the value of: GBP 14.00, & received a refund of GBP 7.50, this is a rip-off I feel >:(
-
Not sure why you couldn't find the quarter and the precise reference - it's all on FreeBMD (https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl)
But the GRO response is bonkers. You should make a complaint.
-
Not sure why you couldn't find the quarter and the precise reference - it's all on FreeBMD (https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl)
But the GRO response is bonkers. You should make a complaint.
Thanks. Have returned their anonymous (unsigned) email with a 'stinking' response, demanding my certificate. I doubt whether I will hear anything before Monday 9am at the earliest. Ruddy government, they offload half their workload to the private sector & still manage to make a sow's ear out of a silk purse! >:-(
-
Good luck with that - do keep us posted!
-
Good luck with that - do keep us posted!
Thank you - this is an excellent site! [thumbs up]
-
Hi,
My POWELL enquiry remains an enigma. My grandmother was told (my late father's recollection) that she was 'not following her true religion', a criticism which no-one has ever been able to understand. I wondered if grandmother's mother's surname of Powell suggested a link to the Romany Powells of London / south London, but there's no hint of that in the DNA result. Looks like Welsh.
Not quite sure what my next move is?
Advice please :)
Thank you.
-
My POWELL enquiry remains an enigma
Sorry, I've lost track - what is the enigmatic bit?
-
My POWELL enquiry remains an enigma
Sorry, I've lost track - what is the enigmatic bit?
Everything - I got back to Thomas POWELL b.1798 marr. Charlotte WILLOUGHBY but I couldn't get back beyond there, so the Powell surname remains an enigma for me, as does my grandma's 'true religion', my father's side wasn't religious at all as far as I know - there was no evidence of it where grandma lived in Bromley Kent where I was taken to visit.
-
Possibly the "true religion" bit relates to Louisa's marriage to John Pensotti - was he a Roman Catholic perhaps? Many Pensottis were/are catholic. The "true religion" would be the Anglican faith.
That marriage also explains her move to Bromley, Kent. That's where he lived.
Have you been able to find the parish record of Thomas Powell's marriage to Charlotte Willoughby in Hampstead in 1820?
-
Possibly the "true religion" bit relates to Louisa's marriage to John Pensotti - was he a Roman Catholic perhaps? Many Pensottis were/are catholic. The "true religion" would be the Anglican faith.
That marriage also explains her move to Bromley, Kent. That's where he lived.
Have you been able to find the parish record of Thomas Powell's marriage to Charlotte Willoughby in Hampstead in 1820?
Thanks Shaun,
Cannot work this out, can you help?
Thomas POWELL married Charlotte WILLOUGHBY: issue, Louisa POWELL
Louisa POWELL relationship George HUNT (soldier): issue, Louisa Mary [1] b.1869
Louisa Mary [1] is illegitimate & takes mother's surname. (Her mother subsequently marries George BENWELL in 1861).
Louisa Mary [1] POWELL marries John INNELL in 1883: issue - Louisa Mary [2] INNELL, b.1883.
Louisa Mary [2] INNELL was my paternal grandmother.
Louisa Mary [2] INNELL marries Arthur KEMP c.1890.
Arthur KEMP b.1870, d.1944 Bromley Kent.
-------------------------------------------------
How does Louisa Mary POWELL's 'second marriage' - to John PENSOTTI (marr 1915) - fit into this tree please?
--------------------------------------------------
Also,
Have I been able to find the parish record of Thomas Powell's marriage to Charlotte Willoughby in Hampstead in 1820?
No, but I found the following on Ancestry -
Name: Thos POWELL, spouse: Charlotte WILLOUGHBY.
Thomas POWELL b.1798, spouse Charlotte.
Children: Louisa.
-----------
Many thanks.
-
You originally said that it was the Louisa Powell born in 1840 (who married Benwell) who was your grandmother; then you corrected that to say it was Louisa Mary Powell born in 1859 (who married Innell and Pensotti); now you say it was Louisa M Innell born in 1883 (who married Kemp) who was your grandmother ? That makes more sense!
-
You originally said that it was the Louisa Powell born in 1840 (who married Benwell) who was your grandmother; then you corrected that to say it was Louisa Mary Powell born in 1859 (who married Innell and Pensotti); now you say it was Louisa M Innell born in 1883 (who married Kemp) who was your grandmother ? That makes more sense!
It is confusing & I post results 'as they come in', so to speak - but it is a confusing family tree, I never had this trouble with the maternal side.
The names and dates I have just given are the best I currently know - I had no idea the forename Louisa would occur three times across three generations, that would have thrown me repeatedly - apologies - still dazed by all this, hence my question regarding the PENSOTTI-INNELL marriage of 1915. Surely Louisa Mary INNELL was already married to Arthur KEMP who didn't pass away until 1944. Or was this 1915 marriage between my great grandmother and John PENSOTTI?
-
Yes I now realise that it was your great grandmother who married John Pensotti in 1915. He had lived in Bromley but perhaps that is coincidental. It looks like they lived in Wandsworth after they married, not Bromley. Sorry for the confusion.
-
Yes I now realise that it was your great grandmother who married John Pensotti in 1915. He had lived in Bromley but perhaps that is coincidental. It looks like they lived in Wandsworth after they married, not Bromley. Sorry for the confusion.
No worries, I am not good at genealogy even though I like history, which is odd, & my figure work is often out as well, so dates can be challenging.
This is all so strange, my late father mentioned the PENSOTTI name several times but never explained the relation; he never mentioned his grandmother - he mostly talked about the INNELL side of his family; I know about the INNELLs. I don't know anything about the POWELLs, that surname was never, ever mentioned, I'm convinced my father didn't know about it.
Now there is something weird, if the Louisa Mary who married John PENSOTTI was my great grandmother then surely her maiden name was POWELL and not INNELL - she took her mother's name because she was the illegitimate issue of the soldier George HUNT+Louisa POWELL relationship?
Am still trying to get that 1915 marriage certificate out of the GRO.
-
Now there is something weird, if the Louisa Mary who married John PENSOTTI was my great grandmother then surely her maiden name was POWELL and not INNELL - she took her mother's name because she was the illegitimate issue of the soldier George HUNT+Louisa POWELL relationship?
Nothing weird there: she was Louisa Mary Powell when she married John Innell in 1883, and Louisa Mary Innell, a widow, when she married John Pensotti in 1915.
-
Nothing weird there: she was Louisa Mary Powell when she married John Innell in 1883, and Louisa Mary Innell, a widow, when she married John Pensotti in 1915.
Many thanks, that has cleared my head & I can enter these details on the bit of the tree I have created for her :)