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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: RowenaElce on Wednesday 22 May 19 23:38 BST (UK)

Title: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: RowenaElce on Wednesday 22 May 19 23:38 BST (UK)
Hello,

I am trying to find out about my 3x ggf, William Hargreaves, as I am interested in finding a connection to a DNA match through this family line and we have been unable to figure it out.

I would love to find out when & where he was born, who his parents were and if he had any siblings.  If anyone can help me in my searching, Iíd be very grateful.

Thank you in advance. - Rowena

What I do know is:

William Hargreaves married Elizabeth Pickles on 20th Sep 1831 in Great Harwood, Lancashire. He is listed as from the Parish of Haslingden and was a Draper and a Bachelor. He was of full age, but no date of birth or parentsí names are given.

William and Elizabeth had 3 children:
(1)   Rachel Hargreaves Ė b. 17 Aug 1832 at Great Harwood and d.? btw.1837-1841 (not on 1841 census)

(2)   John Hargreaves Ė b. 10 Oct 1834 at Great Harwood and d.? maybe 1915 (Q2) but canít find 1911 census

(3)   Edward Hargreaves Ė b. 2 Feb 1837 at Great Harwood and d. Dec 1853 (buried 16 Dec 1853 at St. Bartholomew, Great Harwood)
ē   All three children were baptised on 5 March 1837 at St. Bartholomew, in Great Harwood.

1841 Census does not show William Hargreaves, but it has Elizabeth Hargreaves (25 - married), John (6) and Edward (4) all living at Harwood Edge in Great Harwood. Also listed there are her sister Esther (35) with her husband, Henry Woolstanholme (35 Ė Stone Mason) and their four children (ages 12, 10, 7, 5) as well as Elizabethís father, Edward Pickles (65-Farmer) and her sister Mary (25).
 
1851 Census again does not include William Hargreaves, but Elizabeth is still shown as married (40 Ė Head Ė Farmer of 11 acres), son John (16- Power Loom weaver) and son Edward (14 Ė School?). They are still living at Harwood Edge in Great Harwood.

1861 Census again shows Elizabeth as married (50 Ė Head Ė Farmer of 13 acres) living with son John (26 Ė Cotton Cloth Looker) but her husband William is once again not listed in the household. They are still at Harwood Edge in Great Harwood, but also listed there are a family with the surname Eccles Ė unsure of relation.

1871 Census shows Elizabeth as a widow (60 Ė Head- farmer of 11 acres) at Harwood Edge, Great Harwood. Her son John (35 Ė Head Ė Manager in a Cotton Mill) married to Jane (21) and their three children, Elizabeth (9), Edward (4) and Kate (1).

Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 23 May 19 00:09 BST (UK)
Hello and welcome to RootsChat.
Have you found any possibilities for William on any census?
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 23 May 19 00:35 BST (UK)
According to transcript of marriage on Lancashire Online Parish clerks, the marriage was by licence. I can't find the licence in Lancashire Archives catalogue, either under Hargreaves or Pickles.
Coincidently there's a marriage licence dated 10th Sept. 1831 for another William Hargreaves, a silk draper, but his abode was Caton, near Lancaster and he intended to marry Jane Bibby of Lancaster.
Do you know anything about marriage witnesses, Thomas Wilding and Elizabeth Westwell?
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 23 May 19 01:41 BST (UK)
Do you have a possible year of death for William? Was he buried with Elizabeth or one of the children? If answer to both questions is "No" then:
Given that he was never present with the family on a census and that he may have died 1861-1871, a burial at St. Mary,  Lancaster, 28th Dec. 1863 may be worth considering. Stated age was 48. (Age at death wasn't always accurate.) Abode was Lunatic Asylum.
Lancaster Asylum opened 1816 and for 35 years patients were from all over Lancashire. Admission & discharge + other records are at Lancashire Archives. Admission registers from 1846 on Ancestry.
Census returns for the asylum may not contain full names so you may need to look through each return to find him.
There are 17 more middle-aged/elderly men whose death registrations are in Lancashire BMD index. That's assuming he died in Lancashire.
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: RowenaElce on Thursday 23 May 19 03:07 BST (UK)
Hello Maiden Stone,

Thank you for your quick response.  :)

Unfortunately, I have not found any Censuses for William Hargreaves. I do not know when he was born nor when he died. I can assume both though but that's not helped me so far.

I have not been able to narrow down the options for his birth without knowing parents names or place of birth. Marriage record shows Haslingden and I've found a baptism record for Wm Hargreaves 3 June 1804 to parents George and Rachel Hargreaves. It's a possibility in my mind but only because his first child was named Rachel.

Same applies with year and place of death - I can assume place of death was Great Harwood, but not certain and any time between 1836 (last child born 1837) and 1871 (census his wife is listed as widow) is possible. I know his wife, Elizabeth was buried at St. Bartholomew in Great Harwood but have not found any record of William being buried there.

I have a copy of the Parish register from Great Harwood which shows them married by license. I have attached it to this thread if it helps. I think the names of the witnesses are as you mentioned, Thomas Wilding and Elizabeth Westwell, but it's hard to read the writing. These names are not familiar to me either.

I had not thought about looking at Asylums. I will have to give that a try. I just recently learned about Lancashire BMD and have been checking through the years for his death but to no avail so far. I will keep at that too.

Thank you for all your help and suggestions. Since I live overseas I am not able to do any local research. Maybe I'll have to plan a trip the England sometime in the future but for now I will keep plugging at it.
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 23 May 19 04:07 BST (UK)
There are several possible baptisms in Haslingden on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks, one with a father John, I noticed, as William & Elizabeth's first son, according to baptisms was John. Do you know the name of Elizabeth's mother? Usual naming pattern was 1st daughter after maternal grandmother, 2nd after paternal GM, 1st son after paternal grandfather, 2nd son after maternal GF. Some parents reversed the order or didn't keep to the custom.
 As you say, you don't know were he was born, only where he was when he married. Another possibility is that he wasn't C. of E.

It's odd that he wasn't on any census with his family. Possibilities which spring to mind: He was abroad on business; he was elsewhere in UK on business but not every year, surely?); he'd emigrated; he and Elizabeth had split; he joined army or navy; he was in an institution - hospital or prison.
Westwell is a common surname in the area. Hargreaves is very common in Lancashire of course.

Posting that marriage register image may infringe RootsChat copyright policy. I'll ask a moderator.
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 23 May 19 04:42 BST (UK)

Same applies with year and place of death - I can assume place of death was Great Harwood, but not certain and any time between 1836 (last child born 1837) and 1871 (census his wife is listed as widow) is possible. I know his wife, Elizabeth was buried at St. Bartholomew in Great Harwood but have not found any record of William being buried there.

I had not thought about looking at Asylums. I will have to give that a try. I just recently learned about Lancashire BMD and have been checking through the years for his death but to no avail so far. I will keep at that too.

I've checked coverage of death registrations in Great Harwood sub-district and other sub-districts in what is now Hyndburn registration district  and those for 19th century seem to be complete. If William died in Great Harwood after start of civil registration, September 1837, his death should be indexed on Lancs. BMD.
To see coverage, go to Home page and click "Frequently asked questions"; select "What areas are covered/not covered?"; click on the underlined word "deaths" to see years indexed for each area. List of registration districts are in alphabetical order and sub-districts within each reg. district are also in alphabetical order. Death registrations in many nearby districts such as Blackburn, Burnley, Bury and Ribble Valley also seem to be indexed.
I couldn't see a death registered for Rachel.
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: RowenaElce on Thursday 23 May 19 13:34 BST (UK)
Thank you for letting me know about the copyright image policy. I was contacted by the moderator and I have since corrected it. Hopefully my changes to the picture have been done correctly. This is my 1st chat room/forum so itís a big learning curve for me. :)

I agree with your observation about naming patterns. Elizabethís motherís name was Betty and her father was Edward. Second son was obviously named after him.  The only other Rachel I have in my Tree would be Elizabethís sister, so itís possible William & Elizabeth named their daughter after her. However, I think itís more apt that Williamís parentsí names were either Rachel or John or both.

I have not found record of their daughter, Rachelís death either.

I appreciate your suggestions on why William might not be on the censuses with Elizabeth and, your help in how to read the BMD and suggestions on areas to look at. I find it hard sometimes as Iím always double checking google maps on where places are located. Any other suggestions would be welcome as well. :-D

I will keep digging but this looks like itís going to be a BIG brick wall that will be around for quite some time.
Thanks for your help. - Rowena
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: trish1120 on Thursday 23 May 19 14:31 BST (UK)
FreeREG has a few Great Harwood records.

I always look a hew years either side of a Marriage to see if possible siblings married in the same Church.
There are several possibles including;

MARY Hargreaves married Richard HAMER 27 Sep 1829 (EWD Pickles was a witness)
So worth looking at and then finding them on Census to confirm dob/pob.

Trish :)
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 23 May 19 15:15 BST (UK)
I do the same as Trish to look for possible siblings. It's a pity they are all such common surnames.
Another strategy I use on Lancashire Parish Clerks Ancestor Search form is to select a parish connected  my person of interest and enter that person's name in "Other" boxes to see if my person turns up as a witness to a wedding or a godparent. I leave the principal name boxes blank. I search 20 years either side of a chosen date. I've found ancestors as witnesses at weddings a while before they married each other. FreeREG also has a witness/godparent/other search option. Dozens of Wiliam Hargreaves will turn up though on either site.
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 23 May 19 16:15 BST (UK)
2 websites to see old maps.
National Library of Scotland
https://maps.nls.uk
This has old and modern maps. You can put them side by side.

Lancashire County Council - Old Maps
www3.lancashire.gov.uk/environment/oldmap

You can search for photos of places in recent times on this site:
geograph photograph every grid square
https://www.geograph.org.uk

GENUKI UK and Ireland Genealogy compiles information about places useful for family historians such as lists of churches and cemeteries with dates of operation and location of records. Interactive map e.g. can ask it to show location of churches of a specified denomination. Pages for Great Harwood are at
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/GreatHarwood
You need to enlarge the map to see where Haslingden is in relation to Great Harwood. It's missing from the normal size map although Rawtenstall is on.
Can click on a link to a Great Harwood website from GENUKI GH page. If that doesn't work it's at
www.great-harwood.org.uk
Btw be careful not to mix up Great Harwood with Harwood near Bolton. Google has. There is a reminiscence site which appears as Great Harwood but it's actually Harwood near Bolton.

Lancashire Archives catalogue is online.
Lancashire Family History & Heraldry Society has branches in both your areas of interest. One of the societies 2 research centres is at Oswaldtwistle, which is not far from Great Harwood and Haslingden. The society has a website and an online forum.
See RootsChat Lancashire Resources on Lancashire County board for more suggestions.
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: RowenaElce on Thursday 23 May 19 16:51 BST (UK)
Thank you both, Trish & Maiden Stone.

You have given me lots of new websites for me to check into. I briefly looked at FreeREG and wow, great stuff! This site combined with the Lancs BMD and online Parish Clerks are going to really come in handy. I'm going to have to go backwards and double check all the dates that I have.

Great to know about the Resources board on this chat site too. And the map sites. I'm not going to want to leave my computer for days now!!  :D

You have been a fabulous help. I cannot thank you enough. - Rowena
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Gibel on Thursday 23 May 19 17:57 BST (UK)
The marriage licence is available on Find my Past with marriage date of 1831. Do the search with Cheshire Bonds and Allegations and it is the first one that comes up.

Lancashire Record office may have a copy but it is not available on line. However because much of Lancashire was in the Diocese of Cheshire they are also held atvCheshire Record Office and are available on Find my Past. Hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: RowenaElce on Thursday 23 May 19 19:26 BST (UK)
Hello Gibel,

Thank you for your suggestions.

I am currently working with Ancestry and do not have a Find My Past subscription. I've been told that Find My Past is better for finding UK records so I will sign up for that once my current Ancestry  subscription is up.

Luckily I do have a copy of the marriage record. What's eluding me is all information about WIlliam Hargreaves birth, parents, siblings, etc.

Thanks again. I'm so glad I found this site as I'm finding everyone on here so nice and helpful.  :) 
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Pennines on Thursday 23 May 19 19:30 BST (UK)
If by chance - your William Hargreaves was in Lancaster Asylum - there is a 48 year old William Hargreaves from that Asylum who was buried on December 28th 1863, at St Mary's Lancaster.

(There are other people from the Asylum in those same burial records for St Mary's.)

This is amongst the Lancashire burials on Ancestry.

If, by chance, this is your William - it gives him an approximate birth year of 1815. A bit young if he married in 1831. The marriage license on FindMyPast in the Cheshire records - found by Gibel - states him to be 21 or over.
I have searched through the inmates listed at the Asylum in 1851 and couldn't see him.

In 1861 the inmates are listed on the census by their initials - but I still couldn't spot a W.H. -- although I was 'speed' reading so may have missed him!

If you contact Lancashire Archives;
https://lccsecure.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/questionnaires/runQuestionnaire.asp?qid=474749

they will be able to tell you if they have this particular William's admission papers - as you have his date of burial - they can search backwards from there -- BUT there will of course be a cost and he may not be yours.

(As an aside - I obtained my own Gt Grandfathers Asylum records - from Whittingham - at Lancashire Archives -- it was SO worth it to read why he had been admitted).
I knew for sure it was him though - but Rowena, you don't know so it's whether to just make an enquiry or not to try to confirm or eliminate this William 'from enquiries'.



Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: RowenaElce on Friday 24 May 19 12:45 BST (UK)
Thank you Pennines.

I don't think I am ready to spend $$ on any records just yet, especially since, as you say, it's not certain it's even my William. 

However, it's good to know about this avenue of research so I will keep your notes with my file for my 3x ggf and keep looking through all the new search avenues everyone has so nicely shared with me.

I appreciate your help. - Rowena
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: clayton bradley on Friday 24 May 19 19:25 BST (UK)
Do you know there is a Great Harwood genealogy group on Facebook?
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: RowenaElce on Friday 24 May 19 20:16 BST (UK)
Yes, thank you Clayton for mentioning that.

I do belong to that group and they have been a great help with other people in my tree. I did pose my question there too and although I got some good suggestions no one there knows of my William Hargreaves.  :(

Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Maiden Stone on Friday 24 May 19 20:37 BST (UK)
Other sources to think about.
1. Newspapers:
  a. Family notices - marriage of children, deaths of William, Elizabeth and children.
  b. Adverts and business news in case William belonged to a Hargreaves family firm of drapers.
Local newspaper collections are only partially indexed.
Lancashire Library Service is under Lancashire County Council.
https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/libraries-and-archives/libraries
From the Libraries and Archives page go to 'Digital Library' and then 'Newspapers old and new'. See 'Red Rose Collections' > About the Collections. See also British Library Newspapers 1730-1950 (Gale newspaper library) The latter contains some Lancashire newspapers; membership of some public and academic libraries allows remote access.
An indexed newspaper collection is on Find My Past.

2. Local directories, e.g. Pigot's, Slaters.
Primarily to look for a Hargreaves drapers. Some directories include farmers.

3. Tithe records. Tithes were a tax on land payable to Church of England. There was a land survey & valuation in England mid 19thC. Lancashire Archives collection is indexed, searchable by occupier's surname. Tithe records and maps are on 'The Genealogist'.

4. Wills. Searchable by name in Lancashire Archives online catalogue. Also on other sites.

There are still libraries in Great Harwood and Haslingden. Lancashire Volunteer Partnership has a notice online (undated) seeking volunteers interested in local family history to be present at Great Harwood Library.
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Pennines on Friday 24 May 19 20:49 BST (UK)
Unfortunately as Rowena lives abroad she won't be able to join Lancashire library. I am sure this has cropped up before.

I did look at the on line newspapers on British Newspaper Archive but nothing cropped up for him. He literally 'disappears'.

I am wondering -- and I know it's grasping at straws - but because the marriage license says he is from the parish of Haslingden -- I wonder if they actually mean that, or because Haslingden was a Poor Law Union for the surrounding areas (even including Accrington) -- did they mean that?

If he was from Haslingden and she was from Great Harwood - how did they meet? They are not adjacent townships by any means. He could have been born elsewhere and was simply resident in Haslingden at the time of the marriage -- but with such a common surname it would literally be guessing at a baptism for him unless there was something more concrete to go on.
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: RowenaElce on Monday 27 May 19 16:14 BST (UK)
Maiden Stone & Pennines,

Thank you again for keeping my query in your thoughts. I really do appreciate all your help.  :)

So many more great ideas on where to look. I'm still working on the last batch you recommended but have a nice long list of places to check is great! I have started to delve into them, but so far, no luck. I am, however, optimistic that something will reveal itself in the long run even if it takes a while. That's okay with me.

I dug up a note that my grannie sent to me in 1986 when I asked about my great-grandmother, Kate Hargreaves. She was the daughter of James Hargreaves, oldest son to William & Elizabeth. it reads: "Kate Hargreaves came from an old Lancashire family who had a farm and skinning mill in Harwood Edge near Blackburn. The skinning mill was water powered and failed when steam came in. Her father was John Hargreaves and mother was Jane Smalley. There were 5 children (2 died young) and Jane died when Fred was born. The children were brought up by their grandmother - Elizabeth (Pickles) Hargreaves."

One other thought is that Fred (Charles Frederick - mentioned above) married an Annie Hargreaves from Burnley. He moved to Burnley after the marriage and in the 1911 census he is listed as a grocer & beer retailer. He seems to have taken over to profession from her father, Thomas Hargreaves.  I have not been able to connect the two families in any other way than this marriage, but I wonder if it's possible that our William came from this line of Hargreaves. Sometimes cousins do marry.

As for Haslingden, the one person that has come up as a DNA match to me through the Hargreaves family name has her descendant coming from Haslingden. They all seem to be in cotton mill/weaving occupations.

Looks like I have a lot of work ahead of me, but I now have a long list of resources to check and some great leads. Thank you again. - Rowena
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 27 May 19 20:42 BST (UK)
I dug up a note that my grannie sent to me in 1986 when I asked about my great-grandmother, Kate Hargreaves. She was the daughter of James Hargreaves, oldest son to William & Elizabeth. it reads: "Kate Hargreaves came from an old Lancashire family who had a farm and skinning mill in Harwood Edge near Blackburn. The skinning mill was water powered and failed when steam came in. Her father was John Hargreaves and mother was Jane Smalley. There were 5 children (2 died young) and Jane died when Fred was born. The children were brought up by their grandmother - Elizabeth (Pickles) Hargreaves."
Should that be spinning mill rather than "skinning mill"?

Was the wedding in 1861 at St. Bartholomew, Great Harwood?
John Hargreaves, full; cloth looker; Gt. Harwood
Jane Smalley, full; spinster; Gt. Harwood
Groom's father William Hargreaves, retired
(Transcription on LANOPC)
It seems that William may have been alive then, although not necessarily.

Have you seen the photo of Harwood Edge Farm and datestone "Edward and Anne Pickles 1767" on the Great Harwood website? It's under "History 1600-1800".  There's a picture of Dewhurst Farm and surroundings under "Harwood Moor". Dewhurst Farm is between Harwood Edge Farm and the area Harwood Edge.
GH website has a page about Great Harwood Charter Fair. It was an important fair; it lasted for a week, later reduced to 3 days, and people came from far & wide. "... flannels from Rochdale, fustians and calicoes from Blackburn and *Rossendale, blankets and baize from Bury, the friezes of the Yorkshire valleys and broadcloths of their more distant towns Ö"
* Haslingden is in Rossendale. Fairs were opportunities for single people to meet members of the opposite sex. (Haslingden had a cattle market until late 20thC - chance for farming families to meet.)
https://www.great-harwood.org.uk

Harwood Edge Farm and Harwood Edge were shown on Ordnance Survey map Lancashire sheet 63, surveyed 1844-6. Harwood Edge Farm is not far from Rishton and is NW of Tottleworth. Harwood Edge is W. of Great Harwood Lower Town. This map can be viewed online on National Library of Scotland website https://maps.nls.uk/view/102343952  Maps of 2 different dates can be viewed side-by-side.
Ordnance Survey map of Haslingden in NLS collection is https://maps.nls.uk/view/102343976
Haslingden area was surveyed 1844-5.

A map of Haslingden showing extent and boundaries on:
Rossendale Home page of Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Rossendale/index.html
and on GENUKI site https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Haslingden
You'll see that the northern parts of Haslingden are only a few miles south of the towns of Blackburn, Oswaldtwistle and Accrington.
Several turnpike roads were built or existing roads improved 1750s-1820s to make travel between towns in this part of Lancashire easier, such as Blackburn to Burnley (via Rishton) 1755; Haslingden - Blackburn (Grane Road) 1810; Blackburn - Accrington 1826 (branch of the Bury, Haslingden, Blackburn & Whalley Trust). Turnpike roads superseded pack-horse routes.

Cotton Town website is a good source for history, although it's about Blackburn and Darwen. www.cottontown.org
2 websites for Haslingden:
"Haslingden Old and New"
https://haslingdens.blogspot.com

Rossendale Branch of Lancashire Family History & Heraldry Society
www.rossendale-fhhs.org.uk




Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Pennines on Monday 27 May 19 21:44 BST (UK)
Maiden Stone, what fantastic information you have provided for Rowena.

I have just picked up her latest message and yours -- a great and helpful response.
Rowena I noticed you mentioned that most of the ancestors were in the cotton trade. Please forgive me if you already know this, but Lancashire was the 'hot bed' of the cotton industry -- it's climate and topography made it perfect for the trade which really boomed in the 1800s - although before that - people worked at home on their own looms before the industrial revolution started with machinery being invented and mills in the county being built.

There was a famous saying coined during the second world war 'Britain's bread hangs by Lancashire's thread' meaning that this county was really important in a financial sense because of the export of it's cottons. (Unfortunately this all came crashing down as other countries, such as India started their own manufacturing.)

You may be interested to know that one of the famous inventors of a machine to improve the speed and manufacture of cloth -- the Spinning Jenny -- was a James Hargreaves who lived in Stanhill, Oswaldtwistle -- near Blackburn, not far from Haslingden -- in fact between Haslingden and Great Harwood.

This doesn't help one jot with your actual query -- but don't be surprised about how many Lancashire people were involved in the cotton trade.

Just thought I would mention that -- haven't studied your latest piece of information - except to think how lucky you are to have someone from an earlier generation leave valuable information about other ancestors.
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 27 May 19 23:54 BST (UK)
As the Hargreaves/Pickles family had a farm on the moor, they may have begun by spinning and weaving wool from their own sheep. It was a cottage industry, carried on in winter when there was less farming work. (Handloom weavers)  A few went on to build small mills, powered by fast-running moorland streams. There were many small farms and cottages in upland areas like Harwood Moor. Some farm labourers worked in mills in winter.
When mills began to be built in towns and working in the textile industry became a full-time job, towns like Haslingden expanded quickly. Some of the population growth was people moving from surrounding rural area. However, some mill-owners fetched workers from further afield e.g. Manchester to Crawshawbooth* (1820s); apprentices from London (and other places) to Samlesbury (late 18th-early 19thC). Lancashire textile production became dominated by cotton in 19th century, "King Cotton".
*Crawshawbooth is a mile or 2 from Haslingden.

A local group is Haslingden Roots, which I noticed on "Haslingden Old and New". A history exhibition is advertised.  There is an old Haslingden Roots website. Members have researched several surnames. Rev. Smalley of Darwen was mentioned. (Darwen is just S. of Blackburn and W. of Haslingden.)  Some Haslingden Roots members  belong(ed) to Rossendale branch of Lancashire FHHS.

I may have posted the map links before. Looking at the Great Harwood Ordnance Survey map, Blackburn Old Road seems to run by Harwood Edge (the place, not the farm). This becomes Whalley Old Road. Whalley was the centre of a large, ancient parish and the site of an abbey, destroyed at the Reformation. Until then it was a pilgrim destination. Pilgrims used old, upland paths over moors. Pack-horses would use the same routes.
Blackburn Easter Fair was mainly agricultural until 1830s; another venue for children of farming families to meet other young people.

Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: RowenaElce on Tuesday 28 May 19 17:11 BST (UK)
Not just more wonderful resources for me to check but also a much-needed history lesson in that area of Lancashire and the wool industry. You are amazing!! You canít imagine how happy and humbled this makes me feel, knowing that youíre so willing to share all this knowledge with me.

You are correct regarding the 1861 wedding for John Hargreaves & Jane Smalley at St Bartholomew in Great Harwood. Iíd love to know what it says for profession of Johnís father after the word ďretiredĒ, but I cannot make it out. Another clue to our William Hargreaves that is alluding me. (see attached)

Thank you for asking about the 1767 date stone Ė I do have a picture of it, however I had not seen the photos of Harwood Edge Farm or Dewhurst Farm. Itís nice to put a picture to a place.

Your directions on where to look on the maps were spot on. Iíve seen those maps before while researching my Scottish relatives but had not thought to use them for England. Not knowing exactly where to look makes locating small places like farms hard. Itís so nice to find them now!

As I delve further and further into our family history, I realize how lucky I am that I kept some of the letters that my grannie sent to me. Iím also glad that I asked her so many questions about my ancestors as all that information would have been lost when she passed away in 1998 at the age of 95. Although some of her memories were mixed up, she got the main part of it correct, which is what really matters.

Iíve been able to trace the Smalley and Pickles families back a few more generations, or at least far enough that Iíve got more than enough work to keep me busy for years to come. William Hargreaves, on the other hand has been a thorn in my side for years.  I am grateful that I decided to try something new and post on this group chat site. This has been a very enlightening experience for me. All your help is greatly appreciated.

Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 28 May 19 18:09 BST (UK)
Re. William Harman's occupation. I think it's "Retired tradesman" but the final letter doesn't look like n. You could post it again on the 'Handwriting and deciphering' board so that someone who is an expert on old handwriting can look at it. Put a link to the source of the extract in case people want to examine the whole document to compare letters. Say that you already have a thread on about the family on the Lancashire board.
Transcription on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks has only 'Retired' so transcriber couldn't make it out.

The NLS map website was recommended to me by someone on another gen. forum whom I'd helped with Lancs. ancestors. I didn't know it had English maps. Several people on here have recommended it.

England's wealth was built on wool; that's why there is a seat in Parliament called the Woolsack. Wool production continued in Yorkshire after majority of Lancashire mills switched to cotton. Small-scale cotton production had been going on in parts of Lancashire since mediaeval times. Lancashire also had linen mills.   Silk was another textile industry in Lancs.
The women in your Pickles/Hargreaves family were long-lived.
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Pennines on Tuesday 28 May 19 18:27 BST (UK)
Gosh -- I can't make out that occupation either. I agree you put it on the Handwriting and Deciphering Board'. You will find that just by going to 'Forum' on the ribbon menu near the top of the screen and tabbing down till you come to it.

The last 3 letters look like 'may' -- could begin with 'Tra' -- if it was a small 't' !

I have looked down the list of old occupations for those beginning with letters 't' or 'H' -- but nothing springs out. William is a real nuisance!

Yes I agree wool was important to the country -- and people used to have to bury their deceased family members in wool or pay a fine!

However I still think that Lancashire is more famed for 'cotton' and Yorkshire for 'wool'.

Still cannot find a baptism for William with any certainty - concentrating on father being 'John' - I can only come up with one baptised in 1814 in Haslingden, abode 'Pitheads' (which sounds delightful!) - father John, a weaver and mother Jemima. However he seems too young.
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: RowenaElce on Friday 31 May 19 00:56 BST (UK)
The Handwriting and Deciphering Board says it looks like "retired tradesman".

So nothing new to add.  :(


Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Pennines on Friday 31 May 19 09:54 BST (UK)
Thank you for the update Rowena. So sorry not to have been able to help with William's origins.
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: Maiden Stone on Friday 31 May 19 15:43 BST (UK)
Did any other children marry?
Title: Re: William Hargreaves married to Elizabeth Pickles in Great Harwood, Lancashire 183
Post by: RowenaElce on Friday 31 May 19 16:25 BST (UK)
Pennines - Not to worry, I appreciate all your help. I know so much more now that I did when I started, so that's a bonus for me already.  :)

Maiden Stone - Unfortunately William's brother Edward, born 1837,  died in 1853 at the age of 16. I'm not sure what happened to his sister Rachel, born 1832, as she doesn't show up on any of the censuses either and I cannot find a death for her. I can't think of anything else I can work with.

I think I'm going to go through all your resource suggestions with a fine-toothed comb and if nothing comes of it then I will put William aside for another year or so.

All of your help is greatly appreciated. I will most definitely keep using this chat group for assistance with my future questions. Thanks again - Rowena