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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Drayke on Saturday 25 May 19 17:27 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I'm looking for a bit of help in trying to determine the date of this photo (no restoration needed).
A bit of perspective: Susannah is from Wales and from what is known went to America to live with an uncle for a few years who wanted to adopt her.
Whilst the stories told about this visit are numerous only some are proving to be accurate or at least half truths and the dating of this photo will resolve a few key things as well as prove some of these stories.
Susannah was born in 1874 and the family was always told that she had her 21st birthday thrown by friends Frederick and Charlotte Kip in New York and this photo is of that day. This would put the date at 1895 however, I cant find any record of her trip at that time or her coming back to England after 1906 (of which she was still in New York). This makes me wonder if she traveled over to New York in 1901 when a Susie Lloyd is recorded in the passenger lists, but this would through the 21st birthday photo story out.
It was also told she met the Kips on the boat over, however cant find a record of a Kip and Lloyd traveling together so dating has proven very difficult.
Anyway photo attached is in three versions one is a Cabinet Card another is simply a side view of just the photo on no card and an enlarged version of A3 paper size which I have attached as well.
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First thing to ask is can we see the back?
My first thought was this was a stock photo. These were produced by the thousand & were very popular particularly 1890's-early 20th. C.
They were of well known people from stage, music hall etc.
As she's wearing evening wear it's difficult to give a precise date (The back might help) but 1890's-early 1900's is about the right timeframe.
For this to be someone not from the stage she would have had to have been from a very well to do family to be able to afford an outfit like this.
So how sure are you it's her?
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Hello Jim,
Sorry for not posting the back of the photo it was 2am in the morning when I posted this and needed to scan it. That said I have attached the back showing the photographers details. The larger image taken at the same time however doesn't have any details on it and was made for a large frame.
As to your questions, yes it is my Great Grandmother not an actress and would seem I need to clarify a few more details that will explain the dress and why I am trying to date it.
Firstly the unknown Uncle she was going to stay with and wanted to adopt her (her mother wasn't to happy when hearing this) was from what we know a wealthy landowner in America. The story goes he owned the land that became Gainsville, however I have found no evidence of this especially given it seems Susannah's mother was illegitimate making it hard to chase. He had only 1 heir, a male and wanted a daughter to leave his wealth between the 2 however Susannah's mother refused.
It would seem though from the post cards and stories, that she didn't stay with her Uncle instead she travelled around America. The Kips who were her friends and who we have been told threw the party were the millionaire Kip textile magnates which that and her uncle's story may explain the dress and necklace which the family held in Australia until recently.
Am hoping for a more precise date that the photographers details may provide, but know this may not be possible. Basically to determine if the passenger list mentioned in the first post is her or not, however given she was suppose to have stayed 10 years in America and her daughter was born in wales in 1909 makes this yet another mystery.
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"the land that became Gainsville"
Do you mean Gainesville, Florida?
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"the land that became Gainsville"
Do you mean Gainesville, Florida?
So the story goes yes. I've looked into that though and haven't found any info on the original owner.
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regarding the Uncle
in 1901 there is a Suzie Lloyd, 27, going to Uncle Evans c/- the Atlantic Hotel NY
Of course there are probably hundreds of Lloyds with Uncles Evans!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9T4-99PN-C?i=449&cc=1368704
modified to add the answer to have you been in America before is NO
this next page says Disposition Mr Mathews.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9T4-99PX-1?i=451&cc=1368704
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regarding the Uncle
in 1901 there is a Suzie Lloyd, 27, going to Uncle Evans c/- the Atlantic Hotel NY
Of course there are probably hundreds of Lloyds with Uncles Evans!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9T4-99PN-C?i=449&cc=1368704
modified to add the answer to have you been in America before is NO
Apologies, that's the record I meant. No idea why I said 1905 (I attribute that to lack of sleep at the time of posting - original post corrected). As to the Uncle Evans, if it was Uncle Evan I could understand as a first name as possible but Evans, suggests a last name of which no uncle of her family exists, unless at the time he was over 150 in age or a distant cousin. Also doesn't explain the meeting of the Kip's on the boat as that boat doesn't have a kip on it, unless the Kip's were friends of this Uncle Evans.
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Apologies I modified that message, probably while you were writing, to mention Mr Mathews
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Apologies I modified that message, probably while you were writing, to mention Mr Mathews
Who would this Mr Matthews be though, a clerk? Seems to be mentioned a few times on the page. Whether this is Susannah or not, not sure and is why I thought the possibility of dating the photo more accurately may prove more helpful. Every avenue taken seems to end in a dead end or more confusion.
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You are right, I hadn't noticed that. Shipping company agent's clerk or something.
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I do wish that when one searches for "Dating New York Photographs" etc I didn't get dating for the over 40s messages!
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I swear there are so many mysteries and unbelievable story's to this women, a simple farmers daughter. Of course makes researching her more fun, but frustrating to no end.
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i am sure there should be a site that we can use to analyse the reverse of the photographs like the UK CDV site, which can narrow it down to 5 years. But I can't see one for the US. (because I keep getting invited to go on a date, or have my photograph taken for said date to be arranged!)
I also don't have a separate US newspaper sub at the moment. I'm not finding much about Feinberg Photographic studios using the US newspapers on FindMyPast.
Added - And, if a 21st party was thrown by such a wealthy couple, wouldn't it be in the society columns?
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I haven't been able to find the photographer either except a phot done by them in an online archive with a different look to the back.
As to the newspapers, possibly though that is if it is her 21st, if she is the one mentioned in the passenger list then it wouldn't be her 21st.
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According to Wikipedia, Gainesville was founded when "a town site of 103.25 acres (41.78 ha) was purchased for $642.51." As best I can make out, this transaction occurred in about 1854. Have you tried looking through the 1850 census of Alachua County, Florida to see if you recognize a surname? Or perhaps there was some wealthy individual born in Wales or England who you could then try to connect to the Lloyd family.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gainesville,_Florida
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01nui/
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Not that this answers your question, but the Kips were quite interesting. Here is an article about their castle in Montclair, NJ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip%27s_Castle_Park
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i wonder if the NY public library could help with dating
https://www.nypl.org/sites/default/files/Photographers_in_The_New_York_Public_Library_April_16_2010.pdf
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Ah, Here we are $
15 sorry $30!!!
https://www.langdonroad.com/photo-dating-service
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Starting to just search randomly now!
About Haile Homestead
In 1854, the Thomas and Serena Haile and their children moved to Gainesville, Florida, from Camden, South Carolina. They brought with them 56 slaves that built their 6,200 square foot home. With the house being over 150 years old, it stands as a silent testament to the skills of the laborers that built it. These laborers worked at the 1,500-acre Sea Island cotton plantation the house sits on. After the death of Thomas and Serena, their son Evans took over the homestead and hosted many parties and gatherings there.
https://sweetwaterinn.com/blog/haile-homestead/
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hmm. Thomas HAILE born So Ca (south Carolina?) and his father b Va (Virginia?) mother So Ca
Serena all So Ca
modified, there are trees on ancestry for this family.
1. there are plenty of them so why would Evans Haile want to adopt a (very distant) niece from Wales
2. They seem to go back several generations in the US on all branches - so VERY VERY distant
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maybe you need to visit!
TALKING WALLS
What makes the Historic Haile Homestead unique in the Nation?
Talking Walls!
The Hailes had the unusual habit of writing on their unpainted walls. Documented in 2001, the walls revealed over 12,500 words and artwork in almost in every room including the closets! The oldest dated writing was found upstairs in the Trunk Room where young Benjamin wrote his name in 1859, shortly after the house was officially completed. Writing by family members included personal observations, names of visitors, growth charts of children and grandchildren, recipes for household solutions, inventories of linens, silverware, china, business records and prose. The visitors to the weekend and holiday house parties at the turn of the 20th century were the most prolific wall writers. The walls of the Music Room and Parlor are adorned with over 150 individual writings on each wall. Just two years ago we discovered a new wall of writing which had been covered up my plasterers in the 1990s restoration! We invite you to explore this unique historic treasure where the walls speak to you through time!
A compilation of some of the most interesting and humorous writing from the Talking Walls is available for sale at the house.
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Interesting but wouldn't really line up with an uncle if his family was all born in America including Thomas' father.
There is only one family member apart from Susannah's mother Mary Owens father (Mary being illegitimate and listed in the 1841 census as Mary Watkins then Owens daughter of Anne Owens in all after) who may be the relation and that's her great aunt Jane Owens but she and her husband would most definitely have been dead in the early 1900's.
It could be that this Uncle wasn't of Gainesville but from somewhere else and the story has been twisted.
Modified: As to the photo dating there are 2 Feinburg photos on the net, one from c1895
https://www.disabilitymuseum.org/dhm/lib/catcard.html?id=671
and the other from 1910
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-t8D1XnAIB-Y/U7sFHIxVEGI/AAAAAAAAhGA/AGHTeKrwMCw/s1600/622.jpg
however both are dramatically different in style to the one of Susannah
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The other thing about Evans HAILE is that he was born in 1870, so only four years older than Susannah.
Does seem odd though that here we have both Gainsville and Evans and Money. Just no connection!
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Modified: As to the photo dating there are 2 Feinburg photos on the net, one from c1895
https://www.disabilitymuseum.org/dhm/lib/catcard.html?id=671
and the other from 1910
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-t8D1XnAIB-Y/U7sFHIxVEGI/AAAAAAAAhGA/AGHTeKrwMCw/s1600/622.jpg
however both are dramatically different in style to the one of Susannah
and the mounts are quite distinctive. That's what I think a professional dater would help you with.
There were at least 3 Feinberg photographers. with overlapping addresses
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Not that this answers your question, but the Kips were quite interesting. Here is an article about their castle in Montclair, NJ.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip%27s_Castle_Park
Yes they were quite the interesting family, trace back to Germany if I'm not mistaken as well and traveled back and forth between UK and USA quote a bit.
As to the census info thanks for that. Had a quick look at the index and seems to be nothing there. Maybe as I posted just before the Gainesville thing is a red herring and this uncle wasn't from there.
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going back to basics
you say (as I interpret it)
Susannah LLOYD b 1874 mother is Mary WATKINS in 1841 and then Mary OWENS? (because Mary illegit dau of Ann WATKINS who then married Mr OWENS?)
Why is Susannah's surname LLOYD? Did Mary marry as OWENS or WATKINS?
its ok, i've finally found your tree
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going back to basics
you say (as I interpret it)
Susannah LLOYD b 1874 mother is Mary WATKINS in 1841 and then Mary OWENS? (because Mary illegit dau of Ann WATKINS who then married Mr OWENS?)
Why is Susannah's surname LLOYD? Did Mary marry as OWENS or WATKINS?
its ok, i've finally found your tree
haha, yeah bit confusing. The John Watkins I have listed as the supposed father to Mary is only a possible link and determined by a banns record showing a John Watkins and Anne Owens intent of marriage, however no marriage record exists, so assume something may have happened to stop the marriage taking place, or is the wrong person, but census details does tie it up with the 1841 Watkins name to Mary.
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i see you dont' have Susannah in 1901 census. She might be a chambermaid in London. I'll refind the link.
So, i'm wondering if that rules out that shipping list Suzie. Need to check the dates
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7814&h=15704920&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=wUu5&_phstart=successSource
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i see you dont' have Susannah in 1901 census. She might be a chambermaid in London. I'll refind the link.
So, i'm wondering if that rules out that shipping list Suzie. Need to check the dates
https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7814&h=15704920&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=wUu5&_phstart=successSource
Yeah that's one of the reasons I haven't attached it yet due to the closeness of that passenger record think it may be 2 months apart. And if the passenger record isn't her from the dating of the attached photos (ie taken before 1901) then it rules both records out.
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there is a tree (which i thought was yours? Taelan?) that says the photograph was taken on her 30th birthday not her 21st
I think she does look older than 21.
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there is a tree (which i thought was yours? Taelan?) that says the photograph was taken on her 30th birthday not her 21st
I think she does look older than 21.
Yep, that's my tree. The photo says 30th birthday but under says always thought it was 21st birthday. I changed the caption to 30th due to the 1901 passenger record thinking it could be her, but never have been sure of it. My mother and grandmother insist its the 21st birthday. To be honest ive always thought it was just a usual photo and not special date, though the corsage does indicate a special function of some sort.
The dress itself matches examples of between 1895-1900 from what I can see such as: https://fripperiesandfobs.tumblr.com/post/56973766854/evening-dress-ca-1893-from-vintage-textile and this would put it before the passenger record.
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As to the cardstock the silver embossed lettering is typical 1890's as is the Art Nouveau style on the back.
So more likely 1890's than early 1900's.
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As to the cardstock the silver embossed lettering is typical 1890's as is the Art Nouveau style on the back.
So more likely 1890's than early 1900's.
Hmm if this is the case, proves one but throws a spanner in the works for the others. Thanks for the dating though its appreciated.