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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Canadian Goose on Friday 31 May 19 15:08 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Have a family in West Derby with expected versions of surname on entries. Have checked with Free BMD to see if others were born in same time frame and if I was mistaken. Have baptism entries from ancestry and certified copies from General Register Office.
Christopher Joseph MacDonnell baptism entry born 28 Dec 1881, baptized 28 Dec 1881
Birth registration born 6 Feb 1882, registered 16 Mar 1882.
Esther Ann McDonnell baptism entry born 11 Jan 1879, baptized 15 Jan 1879
Birth registration born 1 Mar 1879, registered 8 Apr 1879.
Family members match with census entries other than surname variations and are in the ballpark for age.
Anyone else have this problem? Which entry would be considered correct, the baptism, since it happened shortly after the birth?
Thanks for any help.
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My thinking is, even if baptised prior to registering the birth, the birth dates should match?
Do parents names match?
Annie
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did Esther Ann McDonnell die in 1882 ?
Name Esther Ann Mcdonnell
Event Type Death
Registration Quarter Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration Year 1882
Registration District West Derby
County Lancashire
Event Place West Derby, Lancashire, England
Age 3
Birth Year (Estimated) 1879
Volume 8B
what are the parents christian names ?
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Parents names match, other than surname variations, maiden name of mother is the same. They had 3 sons and one daughter in West Derby, all born at different addresses. The oldest and youngest match up perfectly for dates, the middle two not so much.
Never run into this problem before.
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Yes to my knowledge Esther died young. She disappears from census entries and family recollection was she died young.
Parents christian names were Michael and Mary Ann. Both were widowed when married. Mary Ann Smith married John Sherriff (still an unknown) and later married Michael.
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was she Mary Ann McCartney ? and were the children baptised at St Vincent De Paul church ?
ADDED
OK so she was a Smith
we have TWO Michael and Mary Ann McDonnell having children baptised around the same time
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ST VINCENT DE PAUL 282-SVP-1-4 (189) 1893 1893 CATHERINE McDONNELL MICHAEL MARY ANN McCARTNEY
1889-4384 ST VINCENT DE PAUL 282-SVP-1-3 (732) 1888 1889 JAMES McDONNELL MICHAEL MARY ANN McCARTENEY
1891-4378 ST VINCENT DE PAUL 282-SVP-1-4 (99) 1891 1891 JOSEPH McDONNELL MICHAEL MARY ANN McCARTHY REQUEST FORM
1887-4513 ST VINCENT DE PAUL 282-SVP-1-3 (648) 1887 1887 MICHAEL McDONNELL MICHAEL MARY McCARTHY
1885-4583 ST VINCENT DE PAUL 282-SVP-1-3 (552) 1885 1885 PATRICK McDONNELL MICHAEL MARY ANN McCARTNEY.
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these records only start in 1883 - but many had 10 + children - so I presume the couple above had earlier children ??
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcbaptisms/baptisms.php
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If they were the same children, the birth date discrepancy may have been to avoid a fee for late registration. Christopher Joseph would have been 11 weeks old and Esther would have been nearly 3 months old. Their official birth dates were within 6 weeks of registration. Or am I too suspicious?
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Esther Ann McDonnell baptism entry born 11 Jan 1879, baptized 15 Jan 1879
Birth registration born 1 Mar 1879, registered 8 Apr 1879.
Liverpool Catholic records St Anne’s parish, shows birth 1st January 1879 and baptism 15th January.
Parents Michael and Mary Ann (Smith)
Godmother Maria (Mary)Smith
Address
22 Cardwell Street
Baptism would be more important than registration. If they were late in this, an adjustment was often made :) it is seen in birth registrations in Ireland so assume this is similar.
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Burial record
Esther A McDonnell died 27th September 1882 aged 3 1/2 yrs 60 Squire Street
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Baptism St Anne's shows Christopher born 16th December with Baptism 28th December 1881.
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Yes, have been going in circles with this one. My starting point was Leo McDonald (grandfather). His birth registration and baptism match with family history. Parents Michael and Mary Ann marriage registration of 21 Aug 1876, Michael McDonnell and Mary Anne Sherriff, both widowed. Mary Anne Sherriff shows Joseph Smith, builder as her father. My grandfather was born 11 Apr. 1877 on baptism and general registration so the timing of marriage and his birth work. 1881 census has family in West Derby as MacDonnell, everything OK except inclusion of step son to Michael, George Sherriff. Explains the widow status and Smith/Sherriff of marriage reg. Children Leo, Esther, Christopher and Bernard all baptized at St. Anne, Liverpool. All match with census entries or as close as the census can get.
Pretty sure I have the right family, other than the Sherriff puzzle, but that is another story. LOL
Still come back to discrepancy in birth dates.
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Thank you Maiden Stone! Was not aware of a late registration fee but that would explain it. Thinking they wouldn't lie to a priest but the registration office would be a different story.
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Thomas George Sherriff born 8th March 1868 baptised 15th March 1868
Parents John Sherriff and Mary Ann (Smith)
Godparents Joseph Smith and Catherine Smith
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Just in case you don’t have much of the Sherriff details (you refer to a puzzle), there are other births, baptisms and deaths.
There is a death for John Sherriff, aged 49 yrs March quarter 1874
There is a baptism ‘sub conditione’
3rd February 1874 x just the name John Sherriff with no other details.
I wonder if John snr was baptised before death :-\
Others:
Joseph Thomas 1866
Mary Katherine 1870
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Births and Deaths Registration Act 1874. Births were supposed to be registered within 42 days. Onus for registering was now on parents, occupier of house where a birth happened or a person present at a birth. There was a fee of 2 shillings and sixpence to superintendent registrar and 2 shillings and sixpence to the registrar for registering a birth 3 months after the birth occurred. I'm not sure about fee between 43 days and 3 months.
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Thank you heywood, yes I have the baptism of Thomas George Sherriff. I believe the Godparents are a brother and sister to Mary Ann Smith Sherriff. Have yet to make a definitive connection to a Joseph Smith family from 1871 census in Liverpool.
From what I understand sub conditione was used for infants that were not expected to live or if they were unsure of whether the person being baptized had it done before. I have a file of of this kind of thing on this family, just cannot make a connection, only assumptions.
Maiden Stone thank you for the registration act. Going with that reason for the differing birth dates.
Good to know if I run across it again.
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as I understand it, sub conditione, as you say is used if there is doubt about the person’s previous baptism.
It fits with the death of a person named John Sherriff but you would need the death certificate.