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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Althea7 on Thursday 06 June 19 13:33 BST (UK)
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My great grandfather's brother James Henry Greenwood was born 7th January 1848 at his parents' home, 48 Cellar, Medlock Street, Hulme, Manchester.
His parents were Thomas Greenwood 1817-1873 and Bridget Ward 1823-1867.
James Henry Greenwood is on the 1851 census age 3, born Manchester, living at 3 Clegg Court, Hulme, Manchester. His father Thomas is a Broker. The family is father Thomas, mother Bridget, sons Hiram 4 and James Henry 3, and Bridget's (half?) siblings Betsy and John Ward.
After that, I can't find anything about James Henry Greenwood, except a few records that could easily not be him. This whole family can't be found on the 1861 census, I have searched a lot for each of them individually and found nothing. After that, Hiram, my great grandfather, re-appears on the 1871 census living in Salford with an Irish born wife Mary Ann, and two daughters. I have the 1867 birth certificate for his daughter Rebecca and her 1871 death certificate, and reliably traced Hiram after that, and I think I have the correct death record for his mother Bridget in 1867 in Bendix Street, Manchester and his father Thomas is on the 1871 census living with a wife Ann Greenwood in Long Millgate, Manchester, where he died in 1873. I suspect that Ann, born 1826, was Bridget's sister, who Thomas married after Bridget's 1867 death, but I can't find any marriage record.
The total absence of any of them on the 1861 census is odd, combined with absence of a marriage record for Hiram Greenwood and Mary Ann Roche, which was thoroughly checked by somebody better qualified than me and there is no English marriage record for them. Hiram and James Henry could have other siblings that the 1861 census would have showed. I wondered if the whole family temporarily moved to Ireland, or even further afield.
Hiram and his family eventually, after the death in 1871 of their first child Rebecca, moved out to the Charlesworth, Derbyshire area, where his grandmother Fanny and other family members are on the 1861 census, and many other family members are. Hiram's third child Thomas was born in 1874 in Charlesworth, Derbyshire, maybe named after his father who died in 1873.
Maybe clues to what happened to James Henry Greenwood. I can't find any death record that definitely is him.
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I don't know if you have seen the family tree on ancestry but it has James married to Elizabeth Hughes with a possible death in 1881.
Plus some prison records from 1876-1879 and a daughter born 1876 Barbara Ward Greenwood.
The Ward middle name is a good clue I would say.
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That marriage is helpfully online and gives his father as Thomas a carter - James also a carter age 31 which is older than yours (marriage 13 Feb 1876) but wife, a widow, is also 31 so he could conceivably have upped his age to match hers.
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I don't know if you have seen the family tree on ancestry but it has James married to Elizabeth Hughes with a possible death in 1881.
Plus some prison records from 1876-1879 and a daughter born 1876 Barbara Ward Greenwood.
The Ward middle name is a good clue I would say.
I had seen that about Barbara Ward Greenwood, and I also thought the middle name was a good clue, but wondered if it was a false lead.
I didn't find any prison records?
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That marriage is helpfully online and gives his father as Thomas a carter - James also a carter age 31 which is older than yours (marriage 13 Feb 1876) but wife, a widow, is also 31 so he could conceivably have upped his age to match hers.
James Henry Greenwood was born in January 1848, so would have been 28 in 1876. I don't have a clue what a carter is? Thomas Greenwood, his father, died in 1873, and on his wife's 1867 death certificate his occupation is a Porter, on the 1871 census a Card Dealer, and on his 1873 death certificate a Card Picker. The UK City and County Directories in 1873 have a Thomas Greenwood also living in Long Millgate as a Whitesmith.
Maybe it said Carder rather than Carter? I am going to have to try to research what these Cards used in the cotton industry were, as Thomas's father was described as a Carder, and Overlooker, and references to Cards keep coming up for Thomas.
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Carter was someone with a cart, like horse and cart, who transported things around (basically)
There is a baptism for Barbara but James never has a middle name to help us out. Hmmm.
Looking for her in 1881 there is one as a granddaughter to Margaret Greenwood 48 born Ireland but there may be other possibles.
One Barbara Greenwood dies age 10 in 1887 Rochdale, not a common name for the time was it.
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Carter was someone with a cart, like horse and cart, who transported things around (basically)
There is a baptism for Barbara but James never has a middle name to help us out. Hmmm.
Looking for her in 1881 there is one as a granddaughter to Margaret Greenwood 48 born Ireland but there may be other possibles.
Hmm...like a rag and bone man, another term for a Marine Store Keeper...so maybe.
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The GRO birth index gives the mothers maiden name for Barbara as Ward so that would make sense her middle name was that. So maybe on the wrong track with that one unfortunately :-\
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One Barbara Greenwood dies age 10 in 1887 Rochdale, not a common name for the time was it.
That is the problem, Greenwood was a very common name in the Calder valley, around Hebden Bridge, where it started in the 1200's with Wyomarus de Greenwood. When you get out as far as Manchester, the name becomes less common and easier to research.
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PS The baptism for Barbara 24 Dec 1876 has father as a "maker up"
Add 125 Pollard Street
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The GRO birth index gives the mothers maiden name for Barbara as Ward so that would make sense her middle name was that. So maybe on the wrong track with that one unfortunately :-\
So unlikely that Elizabeth Hughes was her mother, unless Elizabeth was a widow at her marriage to James Greenwood.
It is a difficult one, as from everything I have found out, Thomas Greenwood and his family were extremely close to James Ward, his father in law, and his wife Bridget Ward's siblings. It wouldn't surprise me if James Henry Greenwood (named probably after Henry Greenwood and James Ward, his grandfathers), married a Ward from this family. Maybe even in Ireland?
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PS The baptism for Barbara 24 Dec 1876 has father as a "maker up"
Add 125 Pollard Street
I have no idea what a Maker Up was? Probably something in a cotton mill?
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Yes she was a widow but her fathers name wasn't Ward - will check what it was **
** Charles Walton a spinner
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Maker up made up garments.
There is a very handy dictionary (online) of "old occupations" that is well worth searching for and saving for future reference.
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Barbara Ward Greenwood's baptism 24th December 1876, there is an image of the document on familysearch.org, Ancoats All Souls, residence 125 Portland (?) Street, father's job Broker(?).
Thomas Greenwood, James Henry Greenwood's father, was definitely a Broker on many records, and I suspect the 1841 census of James Ward, Broker, in Medlock Street, Hulme, could be his grandfather James Ward.
I did find some records of a possible James Greenwood, where he was some sort of clothes dealer, but I wasn't at all sure that was the right person. Married to a Mary, born in Ireland.
I did find an online list of old occupations, I think they had Carter, but Card Dealer and Card Picker are still mystifying.
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Maker up made up garments.
There is a very handy dictionary (online) of "old occupations" that is well worth searching for and saving for future reference.
I found Maker Up here
https://rmhh.co.uk/occup/m.html
This one lists Marine Store Keeper as well
Marine Store Dealer Proprietor of a store selling equipment to Mariners. There were also those who aspired to that but who were nothing but junk dealers.
I had looked at two other online lists of old occupations that didn't have it. And none of them list Card Dealer or Card Picker.