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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: ayahuasca on Saturday 08 June 19 14:59 BST (UK)
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Hope this isn't too incoherent, losing lots of sleep over this! Thanks in advance for reading.
I'm looking into my maternal grandmother (knew very little about my biological heritage but thanks to DNA testing I've traced my dad and my maternal grandfather, both of which are well documented going back several generations and supported by living descendants' DNA matches etc) and I have my mother's raw dna from ancestry.com. All I have on this grandmother so far is a registered birth in her real name (she went by different names in adulthood) in Norfolk 1903ish, an appearance in the 1911 census as a one year old with both parents listed plus a five year old brother on a farm still in Norfolk, England. Neither of the parents really seem to check out in terms of living DNA relatives now. Then she pops up in a 1930s registry under the name she used as an adult, living alone with a child who matches up to an uncle (my mother's half brother), then nothing until her death in the 1980s just down the road in Suffolk.
So far I've used the Leeds method to categorise my mother's ancestry.com matches which are overwhelmingly on the paternal side, of the remainder there are a tiny handful with family trees which have roots in Norfolk and several overlapping names/places between them but none of which correspond to the (admittedly v limited) paper trail so far which my tree is based upon. I'm just wondering what the possibilities might be (eg was she perhaps adopted?) and what my next most useful step should be. Really hope this makes some sense!
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Welcome to Rootschat!
I'm certainly not one of the experts with regard to DNA, but if I were you, I would follow up (backwards so to speak) the information you have on the 1911.
You have your maternal grandmother's reg birth, and you can check her mother's maiden name from the GRO.
You have her father's name and her mother's first name from the 1911, plus her brother's name (worthwhile checking his birth reg on GRO to double check his mother's maiden name is the same).
Then I would go backwards to see if you can find your great grandparents' marriage and their family and build up a larger tree, with the relevant sources all checked in censuses and other documents. (Free BMD will be partial help, and you may be able to have more detailed info from Ancestry or FindMyPast at a library if you don't have a subscription - although you could take out a temporary one and then diary to cancel).
Once you have this further detail on your tree, you may be able to spot where the DNA matches come in....
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All I have on this grandmother so far is a registered birth in her real name (she went by different names in adulthood) in Norfolk 1903ish, an appearance in the 1911 census as a one year old
Doesn't quite match does it if she was born 1903 but was only 1 in 1911 :-\
If you need any help with what has been suggested above just post the names and we can help look :)
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All I have on this grandmother so far is a registered birth in her real name (she went by different names in adulthood) in Norfolk 1903ish, an appearance in the 1911 census as a one year old
Doesn't quite match does it if she was born 1903 but was only 1 in 1911 :-\
If you need any help with what has been suggested above just post the names and we can help look :)
Good spot Millipede - I missed that :o ::)
So now I would add - give us the name and we will try and help!
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Thank you both so much!
So she was known as Lilian Newell but her birth name was Eva Lilian Allison, she’s supposed to have married a George Newell in Norfolk and they had one child in 1932 (still living) she went on to have four more children who are registered Newells but definitely aren’t George’s offspring.
I only found a registration thing rather than an actual birth certificate that says Eva Lilian Allison, no parents listed, and the 1911 census which says William Allison, agricultural labourer at Prior’s Farm, Shouldham Thorpe, Norfolk and Louisa Jane Allison. No maiden name on there. My mother didn’t know her grandparents but knew their names were William and Louisa so I felt I was on the right track there. She thinks her mother, Lilian, left home at 13? Possibly went into service?
I have a messy public tree on ancestry.com which is full of mistakes as far as this maternal line goes, will see if I can link if that’s any use. Really appreciate any help with this. Thanks again.
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https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/tree/154025531/family <<< in theory that should be my tree so far, it all falls into place with our DNA matches except when it comes to everything to do with the Allison side :(
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ALLISON, EVA LILIAN Mother's Maiden Name COOPER
GRO Reference: 1909 D Quarter in DOWNHAM Volume 04B Page 290
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Oh my goodness! Thank you so so much! However did you do that so quickly?!!
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1911 shows Eva Lilian's father - as you say - as William Allison, born c 1880 in Gunby Lincolnshire.
Wife Louisa Jane, born c 1882 in Hillington, Norfolk, and their other child also present, Thomas born 1806 in Shouldham Thorpe.
ALLISON, THOMAS COOPER
GRO Reference: 1906 J Quarter in DOWNHAM Volume 04B Page 320
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You can use the GRO website
https://www.gro.gov.uk
to search births and deaths free of charge (you do have to register).
I looked for the name you quoted and the result is as shown.... ;D
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William and Louisa Jane married in the October quarter of 1903 in
Freebridge Lynn reg district.
County: Norfolk
Volume: 4b
Page: 869
As expected, William Allison and Louisa Jane Cooper
I got these results from Ancestry, but you can also find them on free sites such as Free BMD
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I can see William through the censuses in Gunby and Wormegay (great name!) in 1881/1891/1901 with his parents George and Mary Ann, and then with widowed father George in the 1901.
Just looking to see if I can find George and Mary Ann's marriage.
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Was just about to post marriage entry detail along with birth entry
ALLISON, EVA LILIAN mmn COOPER
1909 D Quarter in DOWNHAM Volume 04B Page 290
ALLISON, THOMAS mmn COOPER
1906 J Quarter in DOWNHAM Volume 04B Page 320
Eva Lillian Allison
Year 1931
Polling district or place Sheringham
Constituency P C of Norfolk, Northern Division
Constituency in full Parliamentary County of Norfolk, Northern Division
County Norfolk
Address Links Way Links Road
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I believe this is the marriage for your grandmother's grandparents - your greatx2 grandparents
George Allison
Reg Year: 1864
Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Reg district: Spilsby
County: Lincolnshire
Volume: 7a
Page: 761
with Mary Ann Clark
And this is your great grandfather William's birth
ALLISON, WILLIAM MMN CLARK
GRO Reference: 1877 D Quarter in SPILSBY Volume 07A Page 617
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This is amazing! Can’t express what it means, I appreciate it so much. Can’t wait to correct the tree and see what happens!
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This looks to be Louisa Jane Cooper’s baptism
Louisa Jane Cooper
Baptism 07 May 1882
Residence Norwich
Father John
Mother Easter Hines
COOPER, LOUISA JANE mmn HINES
1882 J Quarter in FREEBRIDGE LYNN Volume 04B Page 321
and on the census with her parents
1891 RG12; Piece: 1564; Folio: 70; Page: 9
Thatched Cottage, Lynn Road, Hillington, Freebridge Lynn, Norfolk
John Cooper Head Marr. 1847 Agricultural Laborer Norfolk
Esther Cooper Wife 1857 Norfolk
Ernest Cooper Son. 1878 Agricultural Laborer Norfolk
Henry Cooper Son 1880 Agricultural Laborer Norfolk
Louisa Cooper Daugh 1882 Scholar Hillingdon Norfolk
Edward Cooper Son 1891 Norfolk
Charley Cooper Son 1885 Scholar Norfolk
Marriage entry
Dec 1876
COOPER. John Freebridge L. 4b 918
HINES Esther Freebridge L. 4b 918
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There is a record of a Lilian Allison marrying in Forehoe Registration District in Norfolk in Dec quarter 1934. Possible spouse listed as George Newell. Ref 4b 543.
Ray
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And then the 1939 shows Lilian E Newell born 3/11/09 with a younger male also named Newell born 29/8/32. There's a green annotation above the first name and initial of this male, suggesting (I think) that the names should be reversed.
The dob obviously predates the marriage, and there's a birth ref under Lilian's maiden name for this male in Oct quarter 1932, at St Faith's Norfolk. This birth ref confirms the green notation reversing the first names.
I think ayahuasca already had this info.
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Yes I know of him, he uses his middle name. He’s the only ‘true’ Newell.
You people are amazing! I feel like such an idiot for spending so long on this and getting nowhere! Huge huge thanks.
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You are most welcome - many people here love a bit of a detective story.......
Once you have taken in this information, please let us know if you'd like more information, as I think it will be possible to follow up the details of your great grandparents and further back (even if we can't work out exactly what happened to your grandmother after 1939)
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Well I do know an American man of Swiss/German descent inseminated her in 1945 resulting in my mother :D ::) ;)
I still don't know what to say here, I simply can't believe how far back we've gone so quickly!
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also Wormegay . . . ;D ;D ;D the best place name ever!
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Well, the DNA matches may help with the American man of Swiss/German descent, I agree.
I'd never heard of Wormegay, but it's close to King's Lynn as you've doubtless discovered, features in the Domesday Book and means 'the island of Wyrm's people'. Who knew?
and that's exactly why Rootschatters enjoy fossicking around in other people's trees.
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1911 shows Eva Lilian's father - as you say - as William Allison, born c 1880 in Gunby Lincolnshire.
Wife Louisa Jane, born c 1882 in Hillington, Norfolk, and their other child also present, Thomas born 1806 in Shouldham Thorpe.
Wrong century for Thomas. Typing too fast? :)
Just seen Igor's new post. If you ask for help to trace your ancestry back to Wym in Domesday, don't expect a similar result, or any result at all. :)
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;D or all the way back to the Iceni people, maybe Boudicca herself!
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You say at the outset that Eva Lilian Allison - later Lilian Newell - died in 1980's Suffolk BUT online trees state she died April 1992 Thetford??
Which is correct and under what name is her death listed?
Annette
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It all fits! Following Louisa Jane Cooper’s maternal line leads me to Esther Fox - whose family are in all the DNA matches. Will stop gushing my thanks and just be grateful quietly while I wait for the ancestry thrulines thing to update and reinforce your findings. Such a good feeling!!
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Oh! Well she is buried in Thetford but died (I think) in hospital in Bury St Edmunds which is the closest local hospital, just over the border in Suffolk. I thought it was late 80s but 1992 could fit?
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Listed under Lilian Newell as far as I know.
Edited to add: this is what I found on ancestry - Name: Eva Lillian Newell
Death Age: 83
Birth Date: 3 Nov 1909
Registration Date: Apr 1993
Registration district: Bury St edmunds
Inferred County: Suffolk
Register Number: C8D
District and Subdistrict: 7421C
Entry Number: 149
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1911 shows Eva Lilian's father - as you say - as William Allison, born c 1880 in Gunby Lincolnshire.
Wife Louisa Jane, born c 1882 in Hillington, Norfolk, and their other child also present, Thomas born 1806 in Shouldham Thorpe.
Wrong century for Thomas. Typing too fast? :)
Just seen Igor's new post. If you ask for help to trace your ancestry back to Wym in Domesday, don't expect a similar result, or any result at all. :)
Oh thanks Maiden Stone - well I’ve spent the day researching ancestors in the 1700’s whilst carelessly typing in their dates of birth in the 1800’s, so this error is just more of the same. :o 8) ::)
Apologies!
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Oh thanks Maiden Stone - well I’ve spent the day researching ancestors in the 1700’s whilst carelessly typing in their dates of birth in the 1800’s, so this error is just more of the same. :o 8) ::)
I did the same but even worse, found myself in the Tudor era the other day and wrote down dates as 18--, being more accustomed to researching 2 centuries ago than 5.
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I don’t know if there’s any connection here
free search of 1939 register shows address of
Lilian E NEWELL 1909 Thetford M.B. Norfolk
Address 11 Painter Street
There’s this Electoral Register entry
Year 1931 Polling district or place Thetford St Peter
George & Edith NEWELL
address 3 Painter Street
also on same 1931 Electoral Register are
William Thomas & Frances Ann NEWELL (nee Jerrold married 1909)
address 13 Water Lane
It’s possible George & William Newell are the sons of Thomas & Edith Newell - see 1901 c
George NEWELL Age: 7 (1894)
Relation to Head: Son
Birth Place: Thetford, Norfolk
Piece: 1901 Folio: 94 Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Thomas NEWELL 40
Edith 38
Ellen 16
WILLIAM 13
Robert 11
Florence 9
GEORGE 7
Arthur 5
Polly. 3
Edith 1
George NEWELL mmn KING
1894 M Quarter in THETFORD Volume 04B Page 379
Bpt 1894 George born 31st Jan 1894 parents Thomas & Edith NEWELL
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939X-XSZW-W?i=100&cc=1824696
William Thomas NEWELL mmn KING
1887 D Quarter in THETFORD Volume 04B Page 386
Latest census address for Thomas & Edith NEWELL
address 15 Painter St, Thetford, Norfolk
Burial Thomas, Edith & Arthur Newell
https://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/namedetails.php?grave=397734&forenames=Thomas%20William&surname=Newell
Is this the death of
George NEWELL Age: 45 (1894)
Sep 1939 Wayland Norfolk Volume: 4b Page: 302
Burial of above George NEWELL
https://billiongraves.com/grave/person/10605148
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There is a record of a
Lilian Allison
Forehoe Registration District in Norfolk in Dec quarter 1934.
Possible spouse listed as
George Newell
Ref 4b 543.
If the above is the correct marriage entry obtaining this should confirm both father’s names and their occupations, addresses etc
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Just in case these are relevant to your George Newell
Electoral Register Norfolk Ward St Peter Thetford
Years 1920/1921/1922/1923/1924
George & Edith NEWELL address 1 Painter Street
William Thomas & Frances Ann address 14 Grove Lane
Years 1925/1926/1927/1928/1930/1931
George & Edith Newell address 3 Painter Street
William Thomas & Frances Ann Newell address 14 Grove Lane (1930 address 13 Water Lane)
Alice & Thomas William Newell address 1 Painter Street
(1927 address 13 Water Lane (no longer on 1930/31 ER)
There doesn't appear to be a marriage of a George Newell to an Edith ? in Thetford Norfolk
so I think Edith Newell is either his mother or sister (see 1901 census posted reply 31)
possible death entry of mother
Jun 1937 Thetford 4b 374
Newell Edith age 70 (1867)
burial 1937 Thetford Cemetery
Edith wife of Thomas William Newell
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/145565641
burial 1915 Thetford Cemetery Thomas William Newell
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/145565639