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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Gilby on Saturday 08 June 19 21:15 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
I sometimes use Eneclann’s “Index to Irish Wills 1484-1858” on Find My Past. My understanding is that this is an index to extracts or copies of wills which have survived and are still extant today. Firstly, is that correct?
When I do find a will I am interested in, I usually find the reference number isn’t very helpful, and I’m not sure where to go to find the will.
For example, the one I’m looking at now is:
Name = Robert Stevenson
Address = Ardkill, L’Derry
Grant = Prerogative Court, 1839
Document status = Transcript
Ref. no. = Prerogative Grant Book/F/218b
The year 1839 doesn’t fit in with any of the surviving Prerogative Court books, so I’m not sure where I should be looking to find the will transcript.
The PRONI name search does have Robert Stevenson indexed, but no known copy of the will. There is a will/probate record for a Robert Stevenson of Ardkill dated 1847-1898 (D1046/374), but I think that must refer to a later generation. I’ve tried searching the NAI catalogue, but didn’t find anything.
Where should I be looking?
Thanks,
Gilby
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Here’s another example:
Name = Edward Stevenson
Grant = Prerogative Court, 1831
Document status = Transcript
Volume = 4/236/19
Ref. no. = IWR/1831/F/399
Where do I find this one?
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This explains
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/dw/home.jsp
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Hi Sinann,
Since both wills I’m looking for don’t fall into the dates for surviving Prerogative Court books (1664-1684, 1706-1708, 1726-1728, 1728-1729, 1777, 1813 and 1834) that would imply a copy does not survive?
So why is it listed in the surviving will index?
Gilby
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Hi All,
I sometimes use Eneclann’s “Index to Irish Wills 1484-1858” on Find My Past. My understanding is that this is an index to extracts or copies of wills which have survived and are still extant today. Firstly, is that correct?
When I do find a will I am interested in, I usually find the reference number isn’t very helpful, and I’m not sure where to go to find the will.
For example, the one I’m looking at now is:
Name = Robert Stevenson
Address = Ardkill, L’Derry
Grant = Prerogative Court, 1839
Document status = Transcript
Ref. no. = Prerogative Grant Book/F/218b
The year 1839 doesn’t fit in with any of the surviving Prerogative Court books, so I’m not sure where I should be looking to find the will transcript.
The PRONI name search does have Robert Stevenson indexed, but no known copy of the will. There is a will/probate record for a Robert Stevenson of Ardkill dated 1847-1898 (D1046/374), but I think that must refer to a later generation. I’ve tried searching the NAI catalogue, but didn’t find anything.
Where should I be looking?
Thanks,
Gilby
At the National Archives!
My understanding is that the Eneclann CD **only** relates to surviving wills/will extracts at the National Archives.
The surviving material is much broader than just surviving will registers.
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Sorry I've no idea what the surviving will index is.
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I suppose my question is maybe more about how to search for material held by the National Archives. I’m familiar with the PRONI ecatalogue where you can access and search a list of everything they’ve catalogued, but the NAI catalogue here seems more limited:
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/search-the-online-catalogue/simple/#!/
It does say that not all of the older records are on the catalogue, so that could explain why I can’t find any evidence of the wills I’m looking for. So basically the answer is that I need to be there in person to search through their hard copy indexes?
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The end of the NAI link says
The will books for Armagh, Belfast and Londonderry are in the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland.
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The will books held by PRONI for Armagh, Belfast and Londonderry are for 1858-1921 and are digitised here:
https://apps.proni.gov.uk/WillsCalendar_IE/WillsSearch.aspx
The index I’m talking about is for pre-1858 wills.
If the wills are held at PRONI they should appear in the PRONI “Name Search” (though I accept a small number of wills have slipped through the net):
https://apps.proni.gov.uk/ProniNames_IE/SearchPage.aspx
Also the two reference numbers I mentioned above don’t look like PRONI references.
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I suppose my question is maybe more about how to search for material held by the National Archives. I’m familiar with the PRONI ecatalogue where you can access and search a list of everything they’ve catalogued, but the NAI catalogue here seems more limited:
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/search-the-online-catalogue/simple/#!/
It does say that not all of the older records are on the catalogue, so that could explain why I can’t find any evidence of the wills I’m looking for. So basically the answer is that I need to be there in person to search through their hard copy indexes?
You answer your own questions, but keep on asking.
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Was the Will Registered?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=765484.0
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Source: National Archives Kew England
Written: January 26, 1830
Recorded: May 11, 2019
Extracted from the Registry of the Consistorial Court of Armagh
I John Fitzsimmons of Blackwatertown in the County of Armagh Surgeon Do
hereby make and publish this my last Will and Testament......
Source: National Archives Kew England
Written: March 8, 1830
Recorded: November 1, 2017
Ireland In the Name of God Amen I Thomas Byrne of Lurgan in the County of
Armagh being sound of mind and memory do think proper to make this my last
Will and Testament.....
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/armagh/wills.htm
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Indexes of the will of Robert Stevenson
Indexes to probate records, 1536-1858, and surviving will books, 1644-1834
Church of Ireland. Province of Armagh. Prerogative Court
Here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L94X-YP44?i=290&cat=466810
Irish will index, 1838-1879, etc
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9BP-93PY-Y?i=107&cat=232755
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Irish will index, 1838-1879, etc
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9BP-93PY-Y?i=107&cat=232755
Folio 619
Here is the register, with details of legacies etc. Masses of it!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNT-8SHJ-1?i=259&cat=234514
Have you got access to FamilySearch (free)
Attaching a bit of the register
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Index for Edward Stevenson, 1831
Executor Robt Stevenson, Ardkill
Folio 399
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJN-XGV3?i=183&cat=234514
Not sure we have the register on there
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https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Ireland_Probate_Records
including
Commissioners for Inland Revenue
The Inland Revenue Office in London received copies of Irish wills proved in the Prerogative Court of Armagh and all Irish diocesan courts for the time period 1828 1879. From these, there were abstract books and indexes for both the wills and administrations created. The will indexes survive for the time period 1828 1879. The administration index for the years 1828 1829; 1832 1850; 1852 1879. The will abstracts survive for the time period 1828 1839 and the administration abstracts for the time period 1828 1839. The abstracts for the time period 1840 1879 are missing.....
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Folio 619
Here is the register, with details of legacies etc. Masses of it!
Don't forget the rest of it on folio 620!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNT-8SHX-B?i=260&cat=234514
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Would be nice to have some kind of response from the OP
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You answer your own questions, but keep on asking.
I needed the steer and confirmation!
Was the Will Registered?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=765484.0
Possibly, but the reference numbers aren’t ROD references.
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Hi Jon,
Sorry, I had left my computer when you posted yesterday, and then I went to bed, and then work, and then tennis, and then made dinner etc, and I still haven’t had the chance to review your posts fully yet! … but this looks exactly what I need! Thank you very much :)
Would you mind explaining the process involved in finding these extracts?
Is there a page on familysearch for wills similar to this for the Registry of Deeds:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/185720?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Thanks,
Gilby
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Hi
Sorry, I didn't realise you had such a busy day!
I just looked at the FamilySearch catalogue, under Ireland
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/results?count=20&placeId=76&query=%2Bplace%3AIreland
Then scroll down to probate records (70), probate indexes (35), etc
Many of the films listed will be locked up, so can only be seen at a family history centre or affiliate library such as TNA.
In fact it becomes rather confusing regarding the estate duty records (to me at any rate!)
The film we have with Robert on comes from here
Irish will register: 1833-1839, and index, 1828-1837
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/234514?availability=Family%20History%20Library
From Dublin they also have
Registers of Prerogative and Diocesan wills of Ireland, with indexes, 1828-1839
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/670225?availability=Family%20History%20Library
From Belfast, looks intriguing
Irish estate duty wills, 1821-1857. Calendar, 1812-1857
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/597301?availability=Family%20History%20Library
I was going to say there will probably be more stuff, and there is!
Irish will register, 1828-1832
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/234657?availability=Family%20History%20Library
That one is unlocked and may perhaps have Edward Stevenson in 1831 on folio 399
So it is like everything else on FamilySearch, have a look through the catalogue and see what goodies you can find!
John
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Hi John,
This is fantastic! I’ve started hunting and have already found extracts from the will of one of my 5x great grandfathers.
I can see this is going to occupy me for weeks much like the Registry of Deeds did when I first found it. And I think it is going to take me almost as long to get my head around!
I’ve been referring back to the 1484-1858 Index on FindMyPast, and evidently “IWR” stands for “Irish Will Register” and the numbers correspond with the folio numbers on familysearch.
I’ve also now recognised that the “Connor Will & Grant Book/1818-20” corresponds with T2501 at PRONI.
There will be more reference numbers I don’t get and may post back when I have time.
Thank you so much!
Gilby
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Hi Gilby
Excellent news! Glad the registers are proving useful to you.
Yes, do please get back to us with anything more that you can glean regarding Irish probate records and their references at the archives. If I find out any more about the films in the other links I posted I shall update.
John
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Don't forget the salvaged wills and the Will Boxes.
The only pre-1858 Stevenson is James from Newry whose will dates from 1821
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ8-89X4-C?i=21&cat=3590
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Thanks John F. – more to hunt through!
I feel the need to try to draw up a list to show what all the reference numbers mean and where to find the originals (either online or in person).
E.g.
1818-1820
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = Connor Will & Grant Book/1818-20
PRONI T2501
Copy of the Down and Connor Will Book which partially survived the fire – on average the wills are missing about half of the text.
1828-1832
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = IWR
Irish Wills Register
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/234657?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Extracts of wills with details of legacies and beneficiaries.
1833-1837
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = IWR
Irish Wills Register
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/234514?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Extracts of wills with details of legacies and beneficiaries.
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To begin with, I think this will be easier by working backwards from the records on Familysearch.
For example, the will of Anne Atkinson can be found in the “Alexander Bell & Son Presentations”.
Link to index:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/3590?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Link to film:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNP-Z96D-6?i=6&cat=3590
This appears to be listed twice in the Index to Irish Wills (can I call it IIW?), though it is possible they are two different people:
Year 1849
Date of grant 1849
Address Ballinasloe
Notes With copy
Where grant proved Prerogative Court
Document type Administration Will Annexed
Document status Original
Ref.no. T/9788a&b
Year 1851
Date of grant 1851
County Armagh
Document type Will & Grant
Document status Certified Copy
Ref.no. T/8868
What do T/9788 and T/8868 refer to?
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A few other references I’d like to get to the bottom of:
First name(s) Thomas
Last name Spratt
Year 1822
Address Downpatrick
County Down
Where grant proved Down & Connor Diocese
Document type Will
Document status Extract
Ref.no. Char1/5/p66
Record set Index Of Irish Wills 1484-1858
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Wills & Probate
Collections from Ireland
First name(s) Mary
Last name Rankin
Year 1853
Date of grant 15 September 1853
Address Bangor
County Down
Where grant proved Down & Connor Diocese
Document type Will & Grant
Document status Transcript
Ref.no. Down and Connor Will & Grant Book/7014
Record set Index Of Irish Wills 1484-1858
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Wills & Probate
Collections from Ireland
First name(s) William
Last name McCausland
Year 1832
County -
Where grant proved Armagh Diocese
Document type Administration
Document status Transcript
Volume 4/237/33
Ref.no. IAR/1832/F/56
Record set Index Of Irish Wills 1484-1858
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Wills & Probate
Collections from Ireland
Any ideas? The IAR one is in the same format as the IWR, so I’m hoping it might be in the Familysearch collection.
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The references look like:
- Char is from the Commission for Charitable Giving 1800-1858. This can be accessed from a Family History Centre
- Down and Connor Will & Grant Book are the Consistorial Will Books for Connor (1853—1858), and Down (1850—1858). These are hidden somewhere along with Derry & Raphoe (1812—1821); Ossory (1848—1858), though Cashel (1840—1845) is at https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSM7-D3QX-F?i=504&cat=3590
- IAR is the Inland Revenue Administrations at https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/232755?availability=Family%20History%20Library
John Grenham's summary of surviving Irish wills and will abstracts is at https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ATRlo07F9v0C&pg=PA64#v=onepage&q&f=false
Wallace Clare's guide to copies and abstracts, lists what was available after the fire at http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/genealogy/CPPgenealogy21oct2013/wallace_clare_reduced.pdf
CIGO (http://www.cigo.ie/pages/guide-to-wills-and-administrations/) is also good for later wills.
Do you know where the Irish estate duty wills (1812-1857) can be found?
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Thanks again John - there's so much to try to remember, so many places to look.
Do you know where the Irish estate duty wills (1812-1857) can be found?
I don't, but according to John Grenham's site they are indexed in the PRONI pre-1858 index, which I think means this:
https://apps.proni.gov.uk/ProniNames_IE/SearchPage.aspx
Apparently most of those wills were proved at the Court of Canterbury - those wills are imaged on Ancestry, and I have found a few Irish wills there.
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- Down and Connor Will & Grant Book are the Consistorial Will Books for Connor (1853—1858), and Down (1850—1858). These are hidden somewhere along with Derry & Raphoe (1812—1821); Ossory (1848—1858), though Cashel (1840—1845) is at https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSM7-D3QX-F?i=504&cat=3590
I tried looking up a couple of those Cashel wills in the Index to Irish Wills, but it didn't seem to include them, so I don't know if they're included in any index to date...?
IAR is the Inland Revenue Administrations at https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/232755?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Would I be right in saying the administration register 1828-1839 is for those who died intestate?
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I should have said that Derry & Raphoe, Ossory, and Cashel are grant books not will books. So they include grants of probate, administration, marriage licence bonds, and guardianship. The administrations won't be in the will index.
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This has been informative. Thank-you.
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Would I be right in saying the administration register 1828-1839 is for those who died intestate?
Yes that's correct. The level of details is similar to the later Will Calendars including relationship to Administrator and often date of death.
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Ok, thanks.
I was looking back at the will of Edward Stevenson posted by Jon W:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNR-D93W-T?i=445&cat=234657
The consanguity of two legatees is given as "D.J." or perhaps "D.S." - do you know what that means?
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I think that's just "ditto" ie they are both nephews of the deceased too.
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On the other hand I've recently seen DS seen where there was no entry above, maybe it means not related by blood.
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I’ve got a result for a Nathaniel Wilson dated 1749/50 and the ref. numbers are:
Prerogative Grant Book/F/107b
Prerogative Grant Book/F/111b
Prerogative Grant Book/F/114b
I’m guessing this is referring to the surviving Grant Book for 1748-1751.
I’ve now got John Grenham’s book which says the Grant Books aren’t online – so the question is where can they be accessed?
Ta,
Gilby
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Recently spotted a couple more links on line:
Connor Will & Grant Book 1818-20 - partial transcript https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ8-H96L-8?i=440&cat=232751
Down Will Book 1850-8 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ8-M356?i=5&cat=232751
Connor Will Book 1853-8 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ8-MQQ8?i=222&cat=232751
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Hi John, that’s great, thanks. The Connor Will and Grant Book is exactly the same as T2501 at PRONI, which must in turn be a photocopy of a book held at the NAI.
I didn’t know the Down and Connor books for the 1850s were available online. I must have a flick through to see what names I recognise.
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I've been trying to keep a list of the various sources and where/how to access them...
1664-1684, 1706-8 (A-W), 1726-6 (A-W), 1728-9 (A-W), 1777 (A-L), 1813 (K-Z), 1834 (A-E)
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = Prerogative Will Book
Original source = Prerogative Will Book.
Where to find = The index is searchable on the NAI website, but few of the actual wills seem to have been digitised:
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/dw/index.jsp
1684-8, 1748-51, 1839 (Grants) and 1784-8 (Day Books)
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = Prerogative Grant Book
Original source = Prerogative Administrations Grant and Day Books.
Where to find = The index is searchable on the NAI website, but none of the wills seem to be imaged:
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/dw/index.jsp
c1760s-1800s?
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = T/9788a&b or T/8868 ??
Original Source = Alexander Bell & Son Presentations.
Where to find = Digitised online:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNP-Z96D-G?mode=g&cat=3590
1800-1859
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = Char.
Original source = Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests for Ireland.
Description = Abstracts from wills in which a charitable bequest was made.
Where to find = NAI / LDS Family History Centre.
1800-1872
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = Salved
Description = Salvaged prerogative and diocesan wills for Newry, Mourne, Armagh, Belfast, Derry etc?
Where to find = Digitised online:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/film/008095950?i=4&cat=3590
1812-1821
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = ??
Original source = Derry & Raphoe Grant Book.
Where to find = ??
1818-1820
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = Connor Will & Grant Book/1818-20
Original Source = PRONI T2501 (copy of ____ at NAI?)
Description = Copy of the Down and Connor Will Book which partially survived the 1922 fire – on average the wills are missing about half of the text.
Where to find = PRONI, and digitised online:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ8-H96L-8?i=440&cat=232751
1821-1857
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = ??
Description = Copies of wills liable for Estate Duty were held in London until after 1922, when 1370 of them were transferred to PRONI (they’re indexed on the PRONI Name Search).
Where to find = PRONI … ref?? Microfilmed by LDS (see below link) but only available at Family History Centres. Most of these wills were also registered in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury and can be found on the NA (UK) website, or on Ancestry.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/597301?availability=Family%20History%20Library
1828-1832
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = IWR
Description = Irish Wills Register
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/234657?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Extracts of wills with details of legacies and beneficiaries.
1828-1839
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = IAR
Original Source = Irish Administration Register
Where to find = Digitised online:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/232755?availability=Family%20History%20Library
1833-1839
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = IWR
Original Source = Irish Wills Register.
Description = Extracts of wills with details of legacies and beneficiaries.
Where to find = Digitised online:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/234514?availability=Family%20History%20Library
1840-1845
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = Not indexed??
Original source = Cashel Probate & Administrations & Marriage Licences.
Where to find = Digitised online:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSM7-D3QW-T?i=502&cat=3590
1848-1858
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = ??
Original source = Ossory Grant Book.
Where to find = ??
1850-1858
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = Down and Connor Will & Grant Book
Original Source = Down Will Book.
Where to find = Digitised online:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ8-M356?mode=g&i=5&cat=232751
1853-1858
Index to Irish Wills 1484-1849 reference = Down and Connor Will & Grant Book
Original Source = Connor registry of probates and administrations.
Where to find = Digitised online:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ8-MQQ8?i=222&cat=232751
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Prerogative Will Books: 1664—1684, 1706—1708 (A—W), 1726—1728 (A—W), 1728—1729 (A—W), 1777 (A—L), 1813 (K—Z), 1834 (A—E) are at https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/466810?availability=Family%20History%20Library
I've attached a list of pre-1858 wills from the post-fire submissions to the NAI, easily imported into Excel. The later ones are too numerous for me to have time to record.
Thrift's "Indexes to Irish wills" are available via https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/?navigation=&perpage=&page=1&sort=_score&search=Indexes+to+Irish+wills&fulltext=1&bookmarks=0#title Volumes 4 & 5 have the northern dioceses.
The IGRS has quite a few Swanzy and Welply abstracts at https://www.irishancestors.ie/members-area/irish-wills-the-igrs-card-index/
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John, thanks very much for that list. I’m trying to get my head around exactly what you’ve put together. Is it basically a list of all the wills here:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/225052?availability=Family%20History%20Library
I struggle a bit with the various NAI catalogues. Should those reference numbers (e.g. T13836) bring back a result when I search here:
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/search-the-online-catalogue/simple/#!/
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Prerogative Will Books: 1664—1684, 1706—1708 (A—W), 1726—1728 (A—W), 1728—1729 (A—W), 1777 (A—L), 1813 (K—Z), 1834 (A—E) are at https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/466810?availability=Family%20History%20Library
This seems to be the same images as on the NAI site, but it is useful to have them broken down and browsable. I’m still struggling to find all the wills I feel I should be able to find, e.g.
Robert Brice of Castle Chichester, probate (?) 1676 listed here:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994X-RGL6?cc=3460908
Since he’s right in the middle of the 1664-1684 surviving Will Book, shouldn’t I be able to find a copy of his will? Or does the L or I beside his entry refer to an Administration Licence or Intestate … in which case he’d be listed in the Grant Book, which doesn’t survive for that year?
On the other hand, Robert’s daughter-in-law Penelope Brice (1707) is listed here:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G94X-RLLS?cc=3460908
She has a W next to her name, and a copy of her will is in the surviving 1706-1708 Will Book:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G94F-MHRW?cc=3460908&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AWGHD-2Y2M
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Hi there,
I have only indexed pre-1858 wills from https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/225052?availability=Family%20History%20Library
That catalogue overlaps with https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/3590?availability=Family%20History%20Library Some of the salvaged wills and early post-1922 submissions appear in three different catalogues!
They are all indexed at https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1047420?availability=Family%20History%20Library Eight volumes of 6000+ card index pages These point to:
*"T" references in catalogue 225052 eg https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH8-T3YG?i=4062&cat=1047420
*abstracts by Gertrude Thrift, these are at https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/234649?availability=Family%20History%20Library, try cross-referencing https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH8-R3Y3-Y?i=4065&cat=1047420
*the Will Books and Grant Books - including the ones not on-line
PS I've updated the list of pre-1858 wills, I missed a batch of 45 Armagh wills.
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The will book that covered 1664-1684 was Book 13, one of five that have 1676 wills in them. See https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994X-T227?i=10&cat=466810
I think the "I" next to Robert's name indicates that he died Intestate. That's borne out by Betham see https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89LW-24YF?i=167&cat=224404
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….and no, you cannot look up wills with a "T" reference from https://www.nationalarchives.ie/search-the-online-catalogue/simple/#!/
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Wow, no wonder I get confused. So the T numbers are references given by the LDS rather than NAI? If the physical records are held by the NAI, is there any way to find them in their catalogue? I find the PRONI catalogue much easier, but that may be because I’ve actually been there a load of times, whereas I’ve yet to make it down to the NAI or NLI in Dublin…
The 8x6000 card indexes should in theory be a list of most wills for which there is a surviving copy or abstract? These names should also be included in Eneclann “Index of Irish Wills 1484-1858”, right? (Or at least all the pre-1858 ones.)
I had a go at checking the card indexes and cross-referencing to the T numbers and Thrift Abstracts, with some success. I also saw references to grant books and the surviving Connor will book. Then there are random ones like the “Greene MSS”…?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH8-R3Y1-L?i=4090&cat=1047420
What we need is a master list of ALL wills/administrations which says whether or not a known abstract or copy exists, and if so where to find it.
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The will book that covered 1664-1684 was Book 13, one of five that have 1676 wills in them. See https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-994X-T227?i=10&cat=466810
Ah! I’d thought the book included all Prerogative wills for that period. It is good to know, but also quite disappointing.
I think the "I" next to Robert's name indicates that he died Intestate. That's borne out by Betham see https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89LW-24YF?i=167&cat=224404
Yes, ok, this makes more sense now. Thanks.
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I’ve come across a T reference I can’t find for a James Stevenson (1833):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJD-Z849?i=2482&cat=1047420
None of the films listed here seem to include a T8809:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/225052?availability=Family%20History%20Library
Though the one with DGS number 8086229 apparently has T8804, T8818, T8819 etc. When I look at the microfilm I’m struggling to see any T-numbers:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNP-493C-8?i=6&cat=225052
Am I likely to find T8809 in here eventually if I go through all the images? James Stevenson (1833) is not listed in your index.
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There are gaps in the LDS filming, often they include a sheet saying which ones are missing. Also some of the early filming was done before the documents had reference numbers written on them.
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The Greene MSS are at https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/469457?availability=Family%20History%20Library - only accessible from an LDS Family History Centre though.
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Thanks for the link to the Greene MSS. Do you know why the LDS only allow viewing at Family History Centres for some of their microfilms?
Any idea what the PRONI reference is for the 1370 estate duty wills they hold?
Do you know if anyone has attempted to index the wills in the IGRS Card Index?
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I'm afraid I haven't worked out the logic behind LDS decisions. Looking back at some of the recent links I've mentioned I had marked them as "only available at FHC" (Family History Center), but they've obviously become available in the last year.
I don't know the PRONI reference for the Estate Duties wills, though I have looked through the LDS catalogue at https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/597301?availability=Family%20History%20Library and most of the wills were proved at the Prerogative Court of Canterbury (PCC) so you can get them for free from Kew. Some weren't PCC though, an extract from a London will for Jeremiah Lawler is attached.
Something else that is supposed to be at PRONI is the Tenison Groves collection - https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/361776?availability=Family%20History%20Library There's a 100 page index to it at https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/item/437667-redirection This is also available at a FHC - it's nicely typed too.
As for the IGRS wills I did think of indexing it but the majority of wills were Betham so I quit after the letter "A".
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Random list of will abstracts:
16 Carrigan Clerical Wills https://archive.org/details/archiviumhiberni01cath/page/148
42 Carrigan Clerical Wills https://www.jstor.org/stable/25485474
10 Cashel Wills/ Extracts https://www.jstor.org/stable/25502565
10 Langford will extracts by Sadleir https://archive.org/details/descendantsofjoh00maes/page/n16/mode/2up
15 Blake Wills https://archive.org/details/blakefamilyrecor00blak/page/n291/mode/2up
311 Butler Wills + admons https://archive.org/details/testamentaryreco00clar/page/n3
200+ Quaker Wills https://www.failteromhat.com/quaker/quakerindex.php
Waterford IX - 4 wills http://snap.waterfordcoco.ie/collections/ejournals/100149/100149.pdf
Waterford X - 7 wills http://snap.waterfordcoco.ie/collections/ejournals/100161/100161.pdf
Waterford XI - 9 wills http://snap.waterfordcoco.ie/collections/ejournals/103783/103783.pdf
Waterford XII - 6 wills http://snap.waterfordcoco.ie/collections/ejournals/100589/100589.pdf
Waterford XIII - 2 wills http://snap.waterfordcoco.ie/collections/ejournals/100156/100156.pdf
Waterford XVI - dozens http://snap.waterfordcoco.ie/collections/ejournals/100158/100158.pdf
Waterford XVII - dozens http://snap.waterfordcoco.ie/collections/ejournals/103799/103799.pdf
Waterford XVIII - dozens http://snap.waterfordcoco.ie/collections/ejournals/105239/105239.pdf
Upton Papers - Hodson, Dunne etc https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH3-S3Q4-T?mode=g&i=294&cat=449656
Limerick - Andrew Welsh 1782 http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/NMAS%20vol%2002%20no%2001,%20(x)%20Miscellanea%20-%20Information%20of%20Dr.%20Zachary%20Ormsby;%20Will%20of%20a%20Limerick%20printer%20of%20the%2018th%20century%20(Andrew%20Welsh).pdf
Limerick - 5 wills http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/NMAJ%20vol%201%20no%204%2019%20Some%20Limerick%20Wills,%20by%20R.%20Hayes.pdf
Limerick - 6 wills http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/NMAJ%20vol%202%20no%202%2009%20Some%20Old%20Limerick%20Wills,%20by%20Dr.%20Richard%20Hayes.pdf
Limerick - 106 wills & abstracts by Sadleir? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH7-H9N6-9?cat=225052
700 pages, mainly Waterford, lots illegible https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH7-H9VC-8?i=702&cat=225052
Langrishe Abstracts - 70 wills typed https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNH-W9YM-7?i=459&cat=225052
Langrishe Abstracts? - 100+ wills not typed https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNH-W9TV-B?i=551&cat=225052
Roscommon, Ormsby - 13 typed abstracts https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNR-MS8Z?i=293&cat=225052
Cork - 4 Sarsfield abstracts https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNR-W9GF-7?i=614&cat=225052
Cloyne - 12 abstracts https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNR-W9GF-G?i=615&cat=225052
Ulster - 15 abstracts plus other snippets https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNR-3LM2?i=153&cat=225052
Sundry wills in Register of Deeds https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNR-3LNX?i=622&cat=225052
Drought Wills - 81 + 2 Admons https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNP-Z9ZF-9?i=445&cat=225052
Skerrett Wills by Crosslé - 29 mainly Tuam https://www.jstor.org/stable/44973624?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
Crosslé 40 pages of Moore wills extracts and Admons https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89LW-G9YP-K?i=5&cat=234637
Thrift - 50 pages of Magenis wills and admons https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89L7-Y9MV-P?i=716&cat=234649
plus https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89L7-Y9MT-G?i=568&cat=234649
Thrift - 600 pages of wills and bonds https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99LW-X4R8?mode=g&i=16&cat=234649
Thrift - 800 pages of wills and admons https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99LW-F9HC-P?i=3&cat=234649
Thrift - 900 pages of wills and admons https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9LW-G8F9?i=3&cat=234649
Thrift - 250 pages of wills and admons https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99LW-G944-H?i=4&cat=234649
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Wow that’s some list to get through. Thanks ;D
I believe the Groves manuscripts are T808 at PRONI. I’ve looked through a few hundred pages, which is a small fraction of the total. I’m not sure I understand the index you linked to. Is it grouped by surnames which Grove was researching, and then the secondary lists of names are incidental surnames which cropped during his research?
RE the IGRS. I copied out all the names from the first three wills to see how long it would take. It took 10 mins, so I guess to do all ~1500 would be about 83 hours. If only I didn’t have to do the day job!
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I am sure I don't understand the index I linked to. I think your guess is probably accurate, but without first names and places the references aren't that much use.
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Do you know what this type is referring to?
First name(s) John
Last name Courtney
Year 1831
County -
Document type Will
Document status Transcript
Volume 4/236/18
Ref.no. -
Record set Index Of Irish Wills 1484-1858
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Wills & Probate
Collections from Ireland
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I can't help with that one. It's not in T810 at PRONI or Eustace's list of will abstracts at https://www.jstor.org/stable/25511851
Pity the Inland Revenue abstract at https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNR-D973-Y?i=193&cat=234657 has no details.
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I think you did find it actually. The “4/236/18” was referring to the Irish Wills Register, but for whatever reason it was missing the reference number. I looked up a name from a couple of pages earlier and the index has this:
First name(s) Henry
Last name Donnelly
Year 1831
Where grant proved Prerogative Court
Document type Will
Document status Transcript
Volume 4/236/18
Ref.no. IWR/1831/F/166
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This guy should be in the Prerogative Grant Book for 1748-1751:
First name(s) John
Last name McCausland
Date of grant 1749
Address Reighlagh
Where grant proved Prerogative Court
Document type Probate
Document status Transcript
Ref.no. Prerogative Grant Book/F/118a
Which I thought we had here:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/466810?availability=Family%20History%20Library
But that seems to be just the will books and indexes. I can find this John McCausland in the prerogative will index, but I can’t find the relevant grant book – do you know if it is online?
Come to think of it, this John McCausland did leave a will (PRONI T1021/5), so why would his name be in the grant book? I thought that administration grants for those who died intestate.
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Only the wills and indexes are at https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/466810?availability=Family%20History%20Library not the Grant Books
The Grant books can include all of the following:
- Grants of Administration
- Grants of Probate on wills
- Marriage Licence Bonds
- Guardianship
Betham's abstract of his will is at https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9LW-6CXN?i=826&cat=224404
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Thanks. It is good to know that bit more about the grant books.
Yes I was hoping to find an abstract with additional information to what’s in Betham’s. But I guess the grant book would be even more minimal anyway.
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I’m looking at an entry in the Irish Will Register (IWR/1832/F/521) for Thomas Wilson of Coggery (aka Cogry):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNT-3RFS?i=190&cat=234657
I’m trying to make sense of the notes in the “Consanguinity” and “What deemed” columns. In the latter there’s something that looks like “Abs” ad “Absurp”, also a word which looks like “Army”, but it has a mark above to show it is an abbreviation.
The consanguinity column is obviously critical to working out how these people were related to each other. The first note looks like “thra NC” and then maybe “thra” again, or is it “Obra”?
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I’m looking at an entry in the Irish Will Register (IWR/1832/F/521) for Thomas Wilson of Coggery (aka Cogry):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNT-3RFS?i=190&cat=234657
I’m trying to make sense of the notes in the “Consanguinity” and “What deemed” columns. In the latter there’s something that looks like “Abs” ad “Absurp”, also a word which looks like “Army”, but it has a mark above to show it is an abbreviation.
The consanguinity column is obviously critical to working out how these people were related to each other. The first note looks like “thra NC” and then maybe “thra” again, or is it “Obra”?
Is there a way to search just the Inland Revenue Will registers on Family Search? I can see how to pull up the images, but not how to search them....
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I’m looking at an entry in the Irish Will Register (IWR/1832/F/521) for Thomas Wilson of Coggery (aka Cogry):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNT-3RFS?i=190&cat=234657
I’m trying to make sense of the notes in the “Consanguinity” and “What deemed” columns. In the latter there’s something that looks like “Abs” ad “Absurp”, also a word which looks like “Army”, but it has a mark above to show it is an abbreviation.
The consanguinity column is obviously critical to working out how these people were related to each other. The first note looks like “thra NC” and then maybe “thra” again, or is it “Obra”?
The word that looks like army is Ann[uit]y
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Is there a way to search just the Inland Revenue Will registers on Family Search? I can see how to pull up the images, but not how to search them....
They are now completely free and indexed on findmypast (I guess you need to be registered)
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/ireland-inland-revenue-wills-and-administrations-1828-1879
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Yea, I use the index on FindMyPast too. However, I had a hunt around Familysearch and found this set of microfilms which include the original index:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/670225?availability=Family%20History%20Library
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The word that looks like army is Ann[uit]y
Aha, thanks. So I guess if that's annuity, then the other comments in that column refer to a single payment ... perhaps "Abs[olute]" or something...?
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The word that looks like army is Ann[uit]y
Aha, thanks. So I guess if that's annuity, then the other comments in that column refer to a single payment ... perhaps "Abs[olute]" or something...?
That would be my interpretation also. Those entries are for outright gifts.
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Ok. What do you reckon about the consanguinity column?
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Does anything here help? :-\
8.2 Abbreviations used to describe relationships (under ‘consanguinity’ in the register)
Death duties 1796-1903
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/death-duties-1796-1903/#8-other-abbreviations-used-in-the-registers
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Stra NC (Stranger, Natural Child)
Stra (Stranger)
:-\
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What do you reckon about the consanguinity column?
Was the TNA guide any help, Gilby?
Stranger or not?
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Yes, definitely, that is a very useful webpage! Thanks! I agree that it is “Stranger”, e.g. compare the "Stra" to the "Ste" in Stevenson in the executors box at the top - very similar.
The National Archives guide also identifies one of the abbreviations in the "What deemed" column, abswp = absolute legacy with a proviso (conditional grant).
My reading of the death duties record for Thomas Wilson is now as follows…
Thomas Wilson of Coggery [Cogry], Co Antrim.
Died Dec. 1831.
Will dated 27th May 1831.
Proved 17th Sep 1832, Down.
Sworn under £276.
Executors:
Robert Wilson of Coggery.
James Stevenson of Four Mill [Mile] Burn.
Legacies:
1. £200 (absolute) charged on testator’s lands in Drains (bequeathed to Robert Wilson) as well as on the personal property. To Robert Wilson, a natural child.
2. £10 (annuity) charged on testator’s lands in Drains (bequeathed to Robert Wilson) as well as on the personal property. To Anne Kirkwood, a natural child. For life, provided she does not return to Ireland during the life of her husband.
3. £50 each (absolute, with proviso) charged on testator’s lands in Drains (bequeathed to Robert Wilson) as well as on the personal property. To John Kirkwood, Anne Kirkwood, and Thomas Kirkwood, “stranger’s in blood” [probably children of testator’s illegitimate daughter]. Death duties only liable should two of the three die. Should all three die under the age of 21, then the legacy is to go to Thomas Wilson (relationship not stated).
4. Residue in legacies not liable to duty.
Inventory:
House goods = £12-10-0
Securities = £133-16-6
Stock = £88-0-0
Other property = £39-0-0
Total = £273-6-6
Am I reading it correctly that the legacies were charged on land which had been bequeathed to Robert Wilson? Does it make sense that Robert Wilson’s legacy of £200 would be charged on land already owned by him? If not, does this show that there were two Robert Wilsons who were beneficiaries of Thomas Wilson’s will?
The stipulation that Anne Kirkwood is not to return to Ireland during her husband’s lifetime is an unusual one. Often a legacy for a child abroad is only offered on the condition that they do return. I wonder what the story was in this case.
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Hi Gilby
I think you have read it perfectly.
It is an excellent guide from TNA, glad it was useful. The story of Anne Kirkwood sounds as if it will be a good one, but I haven't been able to get a line on it.
Gosh, I am well out of my depth with your specific question about the land. Can someone help?
Jon
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Well, it turns out I actually have a copy of Thomas Wilson's will from PRONI (D300/1/5/98).
I can confirm there were two Robert Wilsons (several in fact). Thomas gave his land in Drains to his brother Robert Wilson subject to certain legacies including the sum of £200 to his son Robert Wilson.
Anne Kirkwood's story is less interesting than I was expecting. Thomas's wish was that she and her husband should reside in America "or some other foreign country" and if they were to return then the annuity was to stop. However, if Anne was widowed then she could return to Ireland.
I think that was still a useful exercise even if it turns out there's more information elsewhere!