Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: Talacharn on Monday 10 June 19 13:00 BST (UK)

Title: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: Talacharn on Monday 10 June 19 13:00 BST (UK)
I cannot find a death recorded for Margaret Williams in 1908 on FreeBMD or Family Search. She was chapel rather than church and most of their records have been lost. Living in Laugharne, it should be Carmarthen.
Any ideas please?

1901 Census: Laugharne (Township) . Frog Street
Margaret Williams . Head . Cockle Gatherer
Age 72 . (Birth Estimated 1829) . Llansadurnen, Carmarthenshire
Schedule Type 23 . Page 4

On census records, a range of ages suggests she was born between 1827 and 1837.

In The Carmarthen Journal . 6th October 1905 an article says she is 75 years of age and living at Frog Street, Laugharne. (Birth Estimated 1830)

Also: Carmarthen Journal . 12th June 1908 . LAUGHARNE DEATH . On Sunday last, at Gosport-street. the death took pIace of Mrs. Margaret Williams, wife of Mr. Thomas Williams, mariner, at the age of 77. (Birth Estimated 1831)
Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: BillyF on Monday 10 June 19 13:20 BST (UK)
There`s a death record on FreeBMD for a Margaret Williams aged 79. Dec qtr 1908 - Carmarthen, making her birth about 1829, fitting in with your range 1827 -1837.
Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: Talacharn on Monday 10 June 19 14:07 BST (UK)
There is another but the age is 5 years out:
Apr-Jun 1908 . Margaret Williams . 72 . Carmarthen 11a 659

The census records I have are:
1871 Census: 7 Gosport Street
Margaret Williams . Head . Married . Mariners Wife
Age 34 . Birth (Estimated) 1837 . Llansadurnen

1881 Census: Strand, Laugharne
Margaret Williams . Wife
Age 45 . Birth (Estimated) 1836 . Laugharne
RG11 . Piece 5395 . Folio 58 . Page 12 . GSU RO11 1342300

1891 Census: Frog Street, Laugharne
Margaret Williams . Head . Married . Cockle Gatherer
Age 64 . Birth (Estimated) 1827 . Carmarthenshire, England
RG12 . Folio 4516 . 48 . Page 5

1901 Census: Laugharne (Township) . Frog Street
Margaret Williams . Head . Female . Cockle Gatherer
Age 72  . Birth (Estimated) 1829 . Llansadurnen, Carmarthenshire .
Schedule Type 23 . Page 4

The locations within Laugharne are very close to each other and I feel each is correct in being the right Margaret Williams. By the 1891, her husband had left, living initially in Carmarthen, then in 1901 at a boarding house in Llanelli, finally in 1911, he was an Inmate at the Union Workhouse/Asylum, Llanelli.

I cannot find his death either.
The majority of records have been lost, as the archive service have looked.

Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: Talacharn on Monday 10 June 19 14:11 BST (UK)
In the Philadelphia Chapel (Independent), Laugharne also known as the Old Chapel, there is a damaged gravestone: I have assumed the two mentioned were relatives, with the Thos and Marg Williams being my great-great-grandparents. But the date of death engraved 1916, does not fit with the death reported 1908, the age of 77 does.

In Loving Memory of
Daughter of Thos and Marg Williams
Who died May 8th 1889
Aged 22 years
She cometh up like a flower and is cut down.
Then the gravestone is damaged
Marg [Damaged] Williams
Aged 77 [Damaged] ? 9th 1916

On FreeBMD I found: 1889 . Margaret Williams . 22 . Carmarthen 11a 550
That is correct.
But I cannot find any record of Margaret Williams, aged 77 in 1916. (Birth Estimated 1839)

The chapel went out of use many years ago, with the ruins taken down around 1990s. All that remains is a graveyard, which still functions today. My family were linked to the chapel in Laugharne rather than the church, so their actual records are lost, apart from a few baptisms online (Find my Past)

SODS LAW! Within family research, the bit that I damaged holds the vital information.
Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: BillyF on Monday 10 June 19 14:57 BST (UK)
It`s always the way !!

It`s difficult when trying to sort out families with the same names running through. I had to do a spreadsheet with the names in different  colours for each different generation - 7 with the same forename!

Good Luck !
Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: Talacharn on Monday 10 June 19 16:50 BST (UK)
Thanks BillyF, I need to develop something and make sense of it all. I certainly get confused with location, middle name and surname all being Laugharne, then Howell cropping up all over the place.

In compiling the register, could it be transcribed incorrectly, writing 72 instead of 77? FreeBMD have simply taken it from the register. I would have thought the newspaper article to be right, but her age has been incorrect so many times. If I bought the death certificate, would be more accurate?

I believed those named on the gravestone were my family, and still could be, because it is in the chapel graveyard. I have found several children baptized, the first in Llansadurnen and then moving to the chapel, but chapel records are limited to a few years and both Margaret and Margaret are not listed. Since finding the death recorded of Margaret Williams, who I know is the right person, it would seem less likely, though probability there is a connection; I just have not found it yet.

To add further confusion; the Margaret Williams I initially asked about, her maiden name was Howell. I kept finding this record and digging a little deeper, I answered some questions, but as usual it opened up a few more questions.

Carmarthenshire, Parish Registers (online)
Margaret Howell Williams
Burial . 30 Dec 1916
Laugharne, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Age 56 . Birth Year (Estimated) 1860

From the actual church records Margaret Howell Williams of Gosport Street, was buried in their graveyard on 30 Dec 1916.

BillionGraves Index
Margaret H Williams . Saint Martin Church, Laugharne . Death 24 Dec 1916

By then, the chapel may have gone out of use, or Margaret H Williams was not a regular chapel attendee, when the chapel had a right to refuse burial and they would then go to the church.

It is also not the chapel gravestone; which reads Margaret Williams died Aged 77 [Damaged] ? 9th 1916, Birth Year (Estimated) 1839. There is damage, but the actual date number clearly ends 9th.

This new Margaret Williams seems to be:
1911 Census . Laugharne Township, Laugharne, Carmarthenshire
Margaret Williams . Head . Married . Dressmaker
Age 51 . Birth Year (Estimated) 1860 . Laugharne, Carmarthenshire
Number in Family 1
RG14 . Schedule 5 . Piece/Folio 9 . Page Number 1

In being married, I searched for Howell and Williams.
Marriage: Apr-Jun 1886
Margaret Howell . John Williams
Carmarthen 11a 1123
My hunch would be, they were related, but I need to look deeper. Marriages between cousins and half-cousins seems to be common practice in this family. A brother of my great-grandfather was John Howell Williams and these two seem to be the same generation. My father was also John Howell Williams. In another part of my family tree, I found a James Laugharne Richards and looking back further, his mother was Martha Laugharne. It seems to be a family trait in connecting families.

Wales, Carmarthenshire, Parish Registers
Baptism: Margaret Howell
10 Apr 1859 . Llanfihangel Abercywyn, Carmarthenshire, Wales
(That is 2 miles north of Laugharne, near to St. Clears)
I found her on the 1861 Census, with father being Thomas born c.1830. On the 1841 census, he is 9 years old and living in Laugharne. Then in 1851, he is living with his married sister in Laugharne, unmarried and a ‘Rough Rider’, but as yet I cannot place him in the family tree, or the definition of a Rough Rider.

The Howell family are significant in the area, but on the edge on my family search, but now want to know more. My family tree is spreading, which will probably show other family connections.
Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: BillyF on Tuesday 11 June 19 15:06 BST (UK)
I have been really fortunate with my reseacrh in the fact that most of my roots are in Lincolnshire,
( my home county ) where we lived before coming here. I was able to visit the archives easily and now all the PRs are online, so I have had to buy very few certs!!

Have you considered school records, I don`t know if they are available. it might have a more definitive age. I found a register which confirmed that my illegitimate gt grandmother was living with her father and stepmother, using his name.
Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: Talacharn on Tuesday 11 June 19 16:09 BST (UK)
On Ancestry and Find my Past I have found school records for my Cheshire family tree, but they were just into the 20th century. It was mainly my great-aunt Jane who was a bright woman, the rest of them nothing.

In Laugharne I am going further back and have again found nothing. Margaret's grandchild, would be my grandfather, who was born in Haverfordwest, but returned to Laugharne after WW1. He was in court several times for not sending one of his children to school. From the dates, his child would have been my father. My grandfather did not like the authorities, and it would seem they did not like him. He was a fisherman and his children worked. In Carmarthen, I can only use the paid online services, or go through newspapers. It is a pity the archives service is not operational.

As for Margaret's husband Thomas, he ended up in the workhouse/asylum in Llanelli, from a life of drinking and fighting. My grandfather was the same, without the final trip to Llanelli. I suspect more will be found in court records than school records.

I would like to find the death of Thomas Williams, who must have died while in the asylum. He is listed on the 1911 census as an inmate in the Union, Llanelly. But it is a common name and I do not want to buy many death certificates to find the right one. The archives service said his files have been lost. It would seem his mother Jane Williams also ended up an inmate in Carmarthen or Llanelly. Along with her name, that I found in a newspaper article.

Then there is the gravestone at the chapel I need to solve; who is Margaret Williams who died in 1916 aged 77? Surely carved into stone it cannot be a typo.
Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: BillyF on Tuesday 11 June 19 18:56 BST (UK)
You`ve a lot to do !!

I use the library for Ancestry FindMyPast etc. it`s free, our local one is open on a Saturday, if you work through the week.
Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: Talacharn on Tuesday 11 June 19 21:07 BST (UK)
I am flexible at present as to when I use the library, but need to be organised with all the questions I am looking to answer. Most of my research has presented itself, it is only these deaths I have struggled with. Now the reference library has reopened, I need to see if the archives office have restarted working there on a Thursday. If so, I will book an appointment, as they may have other ideas how I could find the information.
Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: Talacharn on Wednesday 12 June 19 13:53 BST (UK)
This morning I spent an hour in the library. I found the only feasible death of Thomas Williams in Llanelli Aug-Oct 1918, aged 87, birth estimate 1831. That would make him 2 years younger than Margaret which is consistent with census records. I first assumed, being estranged from his wife and children for many years, he would be buried in Llanelli and not a bought plot.

As for Margaret Williams, I cannot find anything other than the death in 1908 aged 72 years. I will write to the GRO asking them to clarify that from the original document, as I feel it should be aged 77 years.

The archive service have restarted providing some support in the library on a Thursday morning. Once I have more information I will book an appointment.

Later, I called at the chapel graveyard. I looked for the missing fragment which is quite a large piece of slate, but nothing. It was a long shot. Looking again at the main fallen piece and the stump remaining; something did not fit if they were placed together. Margaret had been added, but to the side and beneath there is the damage. Along from it is the date [damage]9th 1918, but they do not align; the date is considerably lower. I had been connecting Margaret Williams with the date, but now feel the grave holds three people. Could it be Thomas Williams? As the plot had already been bought, it would cost very little to bury him there. With burial records lost I will probably never know. I have the quarter, so the Carmarthen Journal may contain something. Although he was a drinker and fighter, always in court, or prison and then the asylum, he was quite a character, so his death may be worth writing/reading about.

After 1889, the gravestone would be erected for the 22 year old, but in 1908 and 1918, it would need to be removed for new information added. At some point the stone has split across and repaired with an iron pin, which is now where it has broken. The pin, when it corroded would have expanded, to cause such a fracture. In answering one question, more questions arrive.
Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: BillyF on Friday 14 June 19 19:33 BST (UK)
I`ve been told it`s like the Forth Bridge !! I`m trying to do a major review without adding any more names - it`s impossible !
Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: Talacharn on Friday 14 June 19 20:46 BST (UK)
I have asked GRO if they can check the age of death relating to Margaret Williams as I feel it should be 77 rather than 72.

I decided to split my family tree into generations. Margaret (Howell) and Thomas Williams were my great-great-grandparents. They had several children, but my main focus is Thomas. He moved to Haverfordwest and married Martha Jane Richards. That is an interesting generation, mainly because of the Great War. Thomas died and Martha Jane remarried in Carmarthen.

Today in the library, I managed to find her on the 1939 Register, that she died the following year with probate going to her daughter. It is a good feeling to have closure, if only one area. I still want to look through newspaper articles for informaton relating to both of them, as they were not living together. He was a Travelling Showman attending fairs and living in a caravan with his family. It would seem he ended his days in a caravan in Carmarthen.

I am determined not to allow this to get out of control. As some point, I would like to write my findings down, presenting all of the information. My interest was the Williams family in Laugharne, but now most relates to the Haverfordwest area. That is due more to the amount of information available.
Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: Deirdre784 on Friday 14 June 19 22:14 BST (UK)
The death would have been registered with the details known (or believed) by the informant. It is quite possible that a death could be recorded as several years out (i have one that is 10 years out, but is definitely the right person).
Title: Re: Death of Margaret Williams, Laugharne: 1908
Post by: Talacharn on Friday 14 June 19 22:45 BST (UK)
Hi Deirdre784,
I am realising, the age and therefore estimated date of birth can be way out, with Margaret Williams it ranges from 1827 to 1834. When that person is the last of the generation, it would be provided by an informant, who may not know with any accuracy. She was interacting, often through the courts, with her son in Haverfordwest who was not supporting her. I just found it strange the formal record seems wrong, when the right age appears in the newspaper.