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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: RickyJack on Tuesday 11 June 19 00:12 BST (UK)
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Mr JOHN. B. WARD was master of the Canada for five years doing only one convict trip 1810
Any clues where Mr John B Ward was Born???
The Canada was built in North Shields and owned by Rieve and Green. She brought convicts to Australia in 1801, 1810,
The Canada departed Port Jackson bound for China on 12th November 1810 and returned to Australia with convicts in 1815.
Could Captain John B Ward have been a contracted Captain for that voyage as we just cannot find his birth,marriage or death
Any help
Kind Regards
Rick
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The Canada departed Port Jackson bound for China on 12th November 1810 and returned to Australia with convicts in 1815.
Could Captain John B Ward have been a contracted Captain for that voyage
The Sydney Gazette and New South Wales Advertiser (NSW : 1803 - 1842)
Sat 28 Oct 1815
SHIP NEWS -On Wednesday sailed the Canada, Capt GRIGG
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/629210
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Appears your fella may have been here in 1812.
The Sydney Gazette and New South Wales Advertiser (NSW : 1803 - 1842)
Sat 23 May 1812
"etc informing him of his then recent arrival in the Canada, Ward master, and detailing the particulars etc "
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/628477
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Thankyou, Captain John B Ward is our mystery man only on the ship Canada for 5 years..Really need his birth, Marriage or death...To be only on the ship for 5 years and a female convict ship makes me wonder if he was a Navy captain contracted for the 5 years.
Thanks again Rick in Tasmania
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Rick, do you know what the B in his name stands for?
Parents or siblings names if possible if known please.
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Not sure if you have seen this or even if its of any help.
John Ward
United Kingdom, Merchant Navy Seamen Records, 1835-1941
Name John Ward
Event Type Military Service
Event Year Range 1845-1854
Event Place United Kingdom
Birthplace Yorkshire
Birth Year 1774
familysearch
https://www.familysearch.org/en/
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Thankyou again....Sadly the only clue is being the Captain of the female convict ship Canada.
and No I do not know what the B stands for.
I imagine that there were many John Ward's so was called John B Ward to avoid getting mixed up.
I'll check your link....Thanks again
Rick
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Have you any idea which port CANADA was registered at? Also do you have her tonnage?
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Hi Seaweed..This is all I can find on the Canada
Ship Name: Canada (2)
Rig Type: S.
Built: Shields
Build Year: 1800
Size (tons): 393
Traveled to Port Jackson via Rio on the 1810 sailing
cheers Rick
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Just a snippet. Seems a J Ward of Stockton (On Tees) was awarded certificate of Master Mariner on 17th Feb 1810. See attached. If it is your man, then at least you have place of birth/residence to go on.
From Lloyd's List 9 March 1809-1810. Page 260
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005721876&view=1up&seq=260
CANADA Ward sailed from Gravesend (London) on 8/March/1810. For Rio Janeirio
Lloyd's List Should be a big help in trying to find the movements of CANADA but it needs time and patience to research it correctly.
It can be searched on line for the dates in question.
http://www.maritimearchives.co.uk/lloyds-list.html
Be aware that there were several ships with the name CANADA around in that time period.
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Thankyou Mr Seaweed
Details for the ship Canada (2) (1810)
Ship Name: Canada (2)
Rig Type: S.
Built: Shields
Build Year: 1800
Size (tons): 393
Voyage Details
Master: John B. Ward
Surgeon:
Sailed: 23 March 1810
From: England
Arrived: 8 September 1810
Port: PJ
Route: Rio
Days Travel: 169
Convicts Landed: 0 males & 121 female convict
Ill have a closer look later today..could I imagine that this record says sailed 23 March 1810 and LLoyds says 8th March 1810 for Rio be the same....A little confusing as with each convict trip the Canada did it says Canada 1 1801 ..Canada 2 1810... Canada 3 1815 and so on with different masters.
Compliment from Tasmania..Youre worth ya weight in Ice Cream..Thanks again Rick
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This bit from an old newspaper might help sorting out the date:
Manchester Mercury 06 March 1810
A few days ago Catherine Clements, a transport, was sent from the Chester County Gaol, to Woolwich, and put on board the transport ship Canada, now under orders for New South Wales .... (no further mentions of the ship in the article)
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Thankyou all....some red hot tips that led me to seaweeds tip...chasing a second opinion, with information received do you reckon this is our man??
carefully pinched from Ancestry....
Name: John Ward
Gender: Male
Event Type: Baptism
Father: John Ward
Mother: Margt
Baptism Date: 2 Dec 1773
Baptism Place: Stockton-on-Tees, Durham, England
Denomination: Presbyterian
Piece Title: Piece 0481: Stockton-on-Tees, High Street Chapel (Presbyterian), 1688-1779
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There are so many Captain John Wards' in the old newspapers so it might be a bit early to get your hopes up!
Can you give any info on why you are looking for this man? Any idea of his age? I'm hoping for some keywords to help in the newspaper hunt.
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Mary Preston was convicted of theft at London's Old Bailey and
transported to Port Jackson, New South Wales (not Brisbane) on the
"Canada" in 1810. The voyage was a slow one, taking nearly six months
to reach NSW, leaving England in March, sailing via Rio de Janeiro, and
arriving at Port Jackson in September 1810. Mary fell pregnant on the
journey. Her daughter whom she named Mary Ward was born in early
February 1811 and baptised later that month, her baptism at the church
of St Phillip's and recorded under the heading of "baptisms of
illegitimate children in 1811". She was baptised as Mary Ward, and her
parents were named as James Ward and Mary Preston.
There is no James Ward listed - as far as records are available - as
crew of the Canada and there were no male convicts on this voyage. The
presumption is that the ship's master, John Ward was most likely the
father, unless Mary just pcked a name out of a hat. Nothing has been
found about John Ward, in spite of research by several descendants over
many decades. It is thought he was most likely English or Scottish, but
with a fairly common name and no idea of his country or county of
origin, or his age, it is more than difficult to trace his origins
reliably - he may have had no connection with London.
OK that said....The Family here have had DNA done with familyfinder which has an area for ancestral surnames...People submit their DNA and surnames connected to their family. As we're not allowed to track descendants of this family that are alive, we have to wait
However every Ward that comes up as a distant cousin match we will be able to email and ask if they are from the Durham line.descending from the John B Ward [no one yet..one day we'll get a Bullseye...cant help wonder what the B stands for in his name....cheers and Thanks Rick
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Hi,
May I mention that the vessel's name was not Canada (2) .... it was simply Canada. The (2) was an administrative notation used on convict records in NSW to separate each of that vessel's voyages transporting convicts to NSW. So (2) was the second time that THAT particular 'Canada' transported convicts to NSW. The vessel may have arrived without any convicts on other earlier trips.
Re the baptism recorded in the parish register for St Phillips Sydney. .... Again, may I express some gentle caution ... That particular register was significant as it was the main one receiving transmitted records from throughout all of the then administrative area covered by the governorship of Lachlan Macquarie ... the actual baptism ceremony need not have been conducted in Sydney, it may not have been conducted by a C of E clergyman and it may not have been for an infant.. Macquarie had issued a General Order in 1810 that required the clergy of any denomination to transmit quarterly returns for their baptisms and burials (and later that year he added marriages) to the NSW Chaplains. St Phillips CofE waa responsible for those transmitted registrations.
I will look through my NSW folders to see if I can help with any positive sightings.
ADD ... NSW .... so there could be baptisms from what is now Tasmania and South Seas including NZ ....
JM
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Have you determined the details for the garrison troops who guarded the convicts during that voyage ....
I can find several transcriptions for Mary Preston's baby. I will type them up in the morning- several ... so it may be one is a transmitted record ...or one s a summary.... I want to check something out first and it is too late in the evening for me to follow up further.
JM
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Voyage Details
Master: John B. Ward
Surgeon:
Sailed: 23 March 1810
From: England
Arrived: 8 September 1810
Port: PJ
Route: Rio
Days Travel: 169
Convicts Landed: 0 males & 121 female convict
Ill have a closer look later today..could I imagine that this record says sailed 23 March 1810 and Lloyd's says 8th March 1810 for Rio be the same.
Further examination of Lloyd's List ( I did say it required time and patience) reveals on page 264
On the 14/March/1810. CANADA No Master stated, sailed for Botany Bay. From Portsmouth. I believe this should have read Arrivedin Portsmouth. Or was this vessel one of the others named CANADA?
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005721876&view=1up&seq=264
The same publication states on page 270. CANADA, Ward. sailed Portsmouth for Port Jackson on the 24/March/1810
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005721876&view=1up&seq=270
This tallies more or less with the information you already have.
If we knew the port of registry of CANADA records may reveal more details about Ward.
Don't know if you have this
http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/article/11113?SearchType=AtoZ&SearchStart=S&Page=2&ItemID=597971
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Some thoughts ... not in any particular order ...
Re NSW BAPTISMS
There are at least two baby girls with their mothers named as Mary PRESTON and their baptisms are recorded in the NSW Chaplains’ registers at St Phillip’s, Sydney NSW.
List of Baptisms of Illegitimate Children drawn from the registers of St Phillip’s
Mary, daughter of James WARD and Mary PRESTON, born 1 February 1811, baptised 10 February 1811.
Noting this is one entry on a list, and does NOT give the baby a surname, nor does it note the name of the clergyman who conducted that baptism.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCX-73X FHL993949
An entry in the register at St Phillips
A Baptism
Mary, daughter of John PRESTON and Mary, his wife was born 26 March 1811 and baptised 9 April 1811. Noting that the name of the clergyman who conducted that baptism is not included in that transcription
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT6H-NHC FHL 993949
Re James WARD – there were many by that name in NSW in the Macquarie era. For example :
a) In the NSW Col Sec papers, there is a letter dated 4 Sept 1823 from a James Ward who arrived per the Britannia in 1797. He is seeking to have his Certificate of Freedom replaced as it was lost in the Hawkesbury floods some six years previous.
b) In NSW Col Sec papers, there is a letter dated 5 Jan 1811 from a James Ward who arrived per the Surprise in 1790…
c) In NSW Col Sec papers there is a record of a James WARD in the Military receiving rations from the Hawkesbury stores 10 June 1809
Re John PRESTON and Mary PRESTON …. Neither of those names with that spelling are included in the Col Sec papers index :
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/
a chap named John PRESTON, arrived Sydney 28 December 1809 a Private in the 73rd Regiment, and left 28 March 1814.
A chap named John PRESTON married Elizabeth RICHARDS 27 Sept 1810, and that marriage is recorded in the registers at St Phillip’s
A Baby born Feb 1811 was likely conceived around June 1810. The Canada left England in March 1810. When did it arrive in Rio and how long did it stop there? And as mentioned earlier, have you sought the details of the garrison forces on that voyage who were guarding the convicts?
JM
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Thankyou JM...Thought I might as well finish the story...
Mary Ward married a convict, William Payton, in 1828 in Pitt Town, NSW,
and they had four children before Mary's early death in 1837.
It is believed that the children were then raised by their maternal
grandmother - Mary Preston - who had married a convict, Patrick McMahon
in 1813. Of Mary and William's four children, the girls retained their
Payton surname until marriage while their son adopted the McMahon
surname of his step-grandfather as it is today...
I know the voyage took 6 months to NSW via Rio ..never really thought about how long at Rio or the soldiers aboard. I have seen six of the sailors names as they fled when arrived in port Jackson..no excitement there and the Family is quite sure Mary was single when she got on the Canada...Dont know the confusion with John B Ward the ship master and James Ward, but I guess at the end of the day its J Ward potentially the father. Some of the relations have had DNA done one in particular has 156 DNA matches to Ward . Two are actual Ward men the rest have Ward as ancestral surnames. Busting to ask them if they are related to the Stockton-on-Tees, Durham, England Ward...Oh and from information gathered from this forum I did find that this John B Ward had a brother Thomas b.1770 however with parents named Margaret and John I can not understand the B... Looks like John B Ward may have got his Marine master ticket 1809 and March 1810 on the Canada to NSW return via China back to London April 1811 then off to China again back October 1811...all in all an interesting story cheers Rick
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/628064?searchTerm=ship%20canada&searchLimits=l-decade=181|||l-year=1810
There were two male convicts, and some regular passengers aboard.
Ricky, where did you see the initial B written? Is it a definite B? (Trying to eliminate some of the Capt John Wards I'm finding)
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Some thoughts ... not in any particular order ...
A Baby born Feb 1811 was likely conceived around June 1810. The Canada left England in March 1810. When did it arrive in Rio and how long did it stop there? And as mentioned earlier, have you sought the details of the garrison forces on that voyage who were guarding the convicts?
JM
According to Lloyd's List of 03/08/1810 page 344 CANADA arrived Rio Janeiro from Portsmouth on 02/06/1810
The same publication. Page 360, says she sailed Rio Janeiro 12/06/1810 for New South Wales. No captains name given in both texts but I have no doubt it's the vessel in question.
CANADA was built in 1800 by Francis Hurry & Co, North Shields.
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GoodMorning
Claim a Convict: Search for a Convict - Hawkesbury on the NET....This site allows you to search by convict or by ship...I went with ship and Canada 2....meaning 2nd convict voyage
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I havnt noted the source for this piece of infomation but at the top of page its has a picture [an impression] two rows of the wooden ships moored and used as prison ships..just as I imagined it would look like..would rootchat allow me to snapshot and post here??
The Canada was built in North Shields and owned by Rieve and Green. She brought convicts to Australia in 1801, 1810, 1815, 1817 and 1819. On this voyage in 1810 she carried 12 guns and a crew of twenty six men.
THE CONVICTS
The prisoners came from counties in England and Wales including Northumberland, Wiltshire, York, Lancaster, London, Salop, Middlesex, Devon, Surrey, Gloucester, Huntingdon, Chester, Kent, Suffolk, Nottingham, Somerset, Essex, Cumberland, Salop, Hertford, Stafford, Berks, Worcester and Glamorgan.
The Hull Packet reported that on the morning of 18th February the following female convicts left York Castle, in order to be delivered on board the Canada transport lying at Woolwich, under orders for Botany Bay -
Eleanor Walsh, Nancy Taylor, Elizabeth Richmond, Sarah Williamson, Anne Hubie and Mary Ogle (alias Acton), Elizabeth Hall, Elizabeth Smith, Elizabeth Bailey and Mary Kershaw who were under sentence of seven years transportation. Harriet Tyler and Mary Ann Drake were conveyed from the County gaol in Ipswich to Woolwich also under sentence of 7 years transportation. [3]
FREE PASSENGERS
Free passengers included George Phillips; William Walsh (later appointed Constable in Sydney) and William Walsh junior; Missionary Henry Bicknell who had recently been married to Miss Mary Adams of Adber. He had recently been at Otaheite where he resided for thirteen years, and was returning there with his new bride via Sydney. His nephew George Bicknell also came on the Canada. Ann Well came free, she was the wife of William Wells who arrived on the Fame.
CARGO
Cargo brought out included 5 cases of hats, 10 trunks of prints and 5 crates of earthenware. [2]
DEPARTURE
The Canada departed England on 23 March 1810 and sailed via Rio de Janeiro.
PORT JACKSON
They were off the Heads at Sydney on 7th September however could not get into the harbour until at least late on the evening of the 8 September 1810. The date the Canada entered Sydney harbour is officially given as 10th September 1810 (HRA).
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Just some snippets from previous mails
The Canada left on the 23 March 1810 from Woolwich,Gravesend and Portsmouth arrived Rio 2nd June 10 days there left 12 June to 7th September NSW...are all these departure points the same or do we have a different ship
he Canada departed England on 23 March 1810 and sailed via Rio de Janeiro.
delivered on board the Canada transport lying at Woolwich
CANADA Ward sailed from Gravesend (London) on 8/March/1810. For Rio Janeirio
Lloyd's List of 03/08/1810 CANADA arrived Rio Janeiro from Portsmouth on 02/06/1810
she sailed Rio Janeiro 12/06/1810 for New South Wale
They were off the Heads at Sydney on 7th September
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Hi,
It is best to avoid infringing copyright, so best to refrain from sharing snips from websites mastheads. Instead, just provide the live link.
I have been examining some transcriptions for marriages. What info on the PAYTON = WEARD marriage gives you confidence her mum arrived per Canada in 1810? Noticing that NSWBDM online index has WEARD as bride's surname...
JM
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......
Mary Preston was convicted of theft at London's Old Bailey and
transported to Port Jackson, New South Wales (not Brisbane) on the
"Canada" in 1810. ....
Mary fell pregnant on the
journey. Her daughter whom she named Mary Ward was born in early
February 1811 and baptised later that month, her baptism at the church
of St Phillip's and recorded under the heading of "baptisms of
illegitimate children in 1811". She was baptised as Mary Ward, and her
parents were named as James Ward and Mary Preston.....
Perhaps I should stress that the baptism register does NOT give the baby a surname .... and the illegitimate list is a compiled list. One of my ancestors is listed on a similar list for a different year in the Macquarie era. It is entirely possible those males named on those lists are invented names.
Baby was not baptised as Mary Ward. She was baptised as Mary.
JM
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Mary Preston married an Irish convict, Patrick McMAHON in 1813 and they had a son - John James McMahon - about whom nothing is known; possibly he died young - we don't know. Patrick arrived on the "Anne" in 1810. In 1814 he received a conditional pardon - information given was that he was tried at Middlesex 1809, was a native of Limerick, occupation - attorney, age 29. He was about 5'5" tall, fair ruddy complexion, red hair, hazel eyes. Patrick died in a drunken brawl (he didn't fall, he was pushed) in 1816. Mary, who it seems was nothing short of amazing for her time, put in a claim c 1818 for what we would probably now call damages and lost wages, to Patrick's employer - for the small sum (not) of £6,000 - but I've never found evidence that (a) she received any compensation or (b) that she even went through with the case.
Thanks for that information...Im now moving into uncharted waters as another Family member now deceased had done this research on on a reread just now, no extra information on Mary Preston has been researched/sort..Interesting though the baby not given a surname...must be correct though as DNA has connected/matched the different lines...did you notice above she named her child John James McMahon ..Thanks again Rick
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Re Claim a Convict:
https://www.hawkesbury.net.au/claimaconvict/search.php
Have you sought to contact the researcher who has claimed Mary PRESTON on that website?
https://www.hawkesbury.net.au/claimaconvict/index.php
Re John B WARD and where does the B come from ...
The NSW governor was Lachlan Macquarie, he basically had absolute control of the penal settlements. He kept a diary in longhand, of course. It has been transcribed. Here is a live link to the transcription for September 1810.
https://www.mq.edu.au/macquarie-archive/lema/1810/1810sept.html#sept8
September
Saturday 8th. Septr. !
This Evening anchored in the Harbour the Canada Transport Ship Capt. J. B. Ward, wt. 121 Female Convicts from England, from whence she sailed on the 23d. of March last.
N.B. recd. a number of Public & Private Letters by her, and official notification of the Earl of Liverpool's appointment to be Secry. of State for the Colonies in room of Lord Castlereagh resigned! —
See also
https://www.mq.edu.au/macquarie-archive/lema/
Re HRA - This is a resource, prepared in the early 1900s - Historical Records of Australia. It is also available on CD. The official Historical Records of Australia were published by a committee of the Commonwealth Parliament. The first series has despatches from the Governors to the Colonial authorities in England. https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/17995589?selectedversion=NBD2617902
JM
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Do you have the image of the
1825 marriage? I will type up a transcription shortly.
oops, 1828 ! ::)
JM
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Do you have the image of the 1825 marriage? I will type up a transcription shortly.
oops, 1828 ! ::)
JM
This is my transcription of someone else's transcription. I have tried to contact them, to no avail. I particularly wanted to know about the signature for the bride. Alas, I still do not know if the bride 'signed' or made a mark. If made a mark, perhaps she was not yet literate.
William Henry PAYTON of the parish of Pitt Town and Mary WEARD of the parish of Pitt Town, married 19 May 1828 with the consent of their families, by Banns. Rev. M D Meares, St James C of E, Pitt Town.
William Henry PAYTON signed.
Witness J D WOOD of Pitt Town signed.
Witness John HANNIBUS, made his mark.
JM
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Thanks for that information...Im now moving into uncharted waters as another Family member now deceased had done this research on on a reread just now, no extra information on Mary Preston has been researched/sort..Interesting though the baby not given a surname...must be correct though as DNA has connected/matched the different lines...did you notice above she named her child John James McMahon ..Thanks again Rick
Baptisms do not give a baby a surname. That is not the purpose of a baptism.
I am amazed that you are placing so much reliance on DNA.
I well recognise that both John and James are among the most popular of Christian names in NSW throughout all of the 19th century so it is not unusual for the lad to have those names.
JM
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I dont think you have it correct JM..
Had Issue
2/ William Henry Payton born 10 August 1799 Bethnal Green, Middlesex, London - baptised 18 August 1799 at Bishopgate in London
d. 1869 ? Pitt town NSW
Married.
Mary Ward 1828
b. 1811 Sydney
d. 1837 Pitt Town NSW.
William Henry Payton married Mary Ward 1828 at Pitt Town NSW. He died as a pauper at the local hospital in 1869 - no-one in his family appears to have
Thankyou for your help, However my original question was anyone know Captain John B Ward Master of the Canada....and what does B stand for cheers Rick
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I dont think you have it correct JM..
Had Issue
2/ William Henry Payton born 10 August 1799 Bethnal Green, Middlesex, London - baptised 18 August 1799 at Bishopgate in London
d. 1869 ? Pitt town NSW
Married.
Mary Ward 1828
b. 1811 Sydney
d. 1837 Pitt Town NSW.
William Henry Payton married Mary Ward 1828 at Pitt Town NSW. He died as a pauper at the local hospital in 1869 - no-one in his family appears to have
Thankyou for your help, However my original question was anyone know Captain John B Ward Master of the Canada....and what does B stand for cheers Rick
From a submitted tree,
William Henry PAYTON married Frances Maria (Mary) WARD/MCMAHON at Pitt Town NSW in 1828. He was already a father, his son was William Henry born 8 May 1826, Pitt Town.
From same Submitted tree, Frances Maria (Mary) WARD/MCMAHON was born 1 February 1811, (father as Patrick) Frances Maria (Mary) had THREE children with William Henry PAYTON, including a son born 8 May 1826, at Pitt Town.
William Henry PAYTON born 8 May 1826 died on 4 October 1918 at Forbes NSW. He was known there as William Henry MCMAHON. He had married Annie SOWDEN in Wentworth NSW on 19 February 1862.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/100370467 Forbes Times 8 Oct 1918 Obit.
I have found nothing to give you any confidence in a connection to John B WARD, captain of the Transport, Canada arriving Sydney (Port Jackson) September 1810.
JM
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From the uploaded Image of St John’s C of E, Parramatta parish registers. - marriages
No. 376
Patrick Mcmahon of the parish of St Phillip, Sydney and Mary Preston of Do were married in this church by Banns this fourth Day of Septr in the Year One Thousand eight hundred and thirteen by me, Samuel Marsden.
This marriage was solemnized between us Patrick McMahon (he signed) Mary Preston (she signed) in the Presence of E Quin (signed) and Sarah Quin (her x mark).
There is nothing on that image to confirm that that Mary arrived per the Canada. You need to follow the paper trail via the Musters and the 1828 census.
JM
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Mary Preston married an Irish convict, Patrick McMAHON in 1813 and they had a son - John James McMahon - about whom nothing is known; possibly he died young - we don't know. Patrick arrived on the "Anne" in 1810. In 1814 he received a conditional pardon - information given was that he was tried at Middlesex 1809, was a native of Limerick, occupation - attorney, age 29. He was about 5'5" tall, fair ruddy complexion, red hair, hazel eyes. Patrick died in a drunken brawl (he didn't fall, he was pushed) in 1816. Mary, who it seems was nothing short of amazing for her time, put in a claim c 1818 for what we would probably now call damages and lost wages, to Patrick's employer - for the small sum (not) of £6,000 - but I've never found evidence that (a) she received any compensation or (b) that she even went through with the case.
.....
There were at least two chaps named Patrick MCMAHON in NSW in 1816.
Patrick McMAHON who arrived per Tellicherry 15 Feb 1806 … he was born about 1780, and was Irish. Tried at Dublin County, July 1804, sentenced to Life. In October 1814 muster he was at Windsor, assigned to Bryan SPALDING and off stores. His Conditional Pardon dated 1 January 1816. He was still alive as per the September 1822 Muster … at Windsor, and still alive per the Sept 1825 muster, and still alive as per the 1828 Census.
1828 census
Patrick McMAHON, aged 42, Roman Catholic, arrived per Tellicherry 1806 under a Life sentence, Conditional Pardon, in the household of Daniel NEIL, in the Cornwallis district.
Patrick McMAHON, who arrived per Anne 26 Feb 1810, tried Middlesex, England 16 Jan 1809. 7 years. CF 1645, CP 331, 31 Jan 1814. November 1814 Muster he is a Clerk, at Sydney, with Mr GORE, and is off stores. I can see him in the Muster of Feb 1811 as Patrick Macmahone, in Sydney.
Which one married Mary PRESTON?
I should mention that I have not yet confirmed but it may be that the 1828 mention of Daniel NEIL could perhaps show that that householder (Daniel NEIL) arrived ... wait for it ... per Canada ! ::) but in 1815 :)
ADD, one of my lines was in the Cornwallis district in that era. :D
Further ADD
Re John James
Here is my transcription of the baptism of John James as registered in the St John’s C of E, Parramatta registers.
John James son of Patrick and Mary McMahon was born 26th May 1813 and Christened Septr 4th 1813, registered same day by me Samuel Marsden. The Anglican Diocese of Sydney has a current partnership with Ancestry and many (but not all) of their parish registers from early NSW have been digitised and are available.
I note that there is a John McMAHON, born in the colony 1814 in the Newcastle Description Book 1832-33.
NSW State Archives has kilometres and kilometres of archived material, some of which has been filmed and is on reels and available no charge to the general public at their Kingswood office. If you are in Sydney perhaps you could consider visiting. Otherwise, perhaps check to see if you are handy to an ARK KIT ...
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/archives-resources-kit-ark
and
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/archives-resources-kit-%28ARK%29
Re WARD
There were in the Hawkesbury district several families with the surname WARD in the 'right' era. If you want look ups for these, please do ask.
JM
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Well well Janelle...wondered when i'd run into you....first time a funeral in Brisbane in January
I can see you are very very thorough with your research....however I have been completely distracted from my direction...I couldnt understand why it was so difficult to find the Captain of a ship especially one as important as a convict ship..[praise the Lord} As reported earlier a solid tip.. well solid enough to check and be able to ask our 156 DNA matches...do your Ward come from Stockton-on-Tees, Durham, England as early as 1770. I have started today...may turn out to be nothing but its a lovely coincidence that ol John Ward got his masters ticket less than 6 months before he took on the Canada ..cheers for now...another cold wet day here in Tasmania...Rick
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Well well Janelle...wondered when i'd run into you....first time a funeral in Brisbane in January
I can see you are very very thorough with your research....however I have been completely distracted from my direction...I couldnt understand why it was so difficult to find the Captain of a ship especially one as important as a convict ship..[praise the Lord} As reported earlier a solid tip.. well solid enough to check and be able to ask our 156 DNA matches...do your Ward come from Stockton-on-Tees, Durham, England as early as 1770. I have started today...may turn out to be nothing but its a lovely coincidence that ol John Ward got his masters ticket less than 6 months before he took on the Canada ..cheers for now...another cold wet day here in Tasmania...Rick
I have no idea what you are on about; I am not your Janelle, I was not in Brisbane in January and I am not WARD descendant.
I am concerned that you are assuming a baby girl baptised in 1811 in NSW with mother as Mary PRESTON would have been known by the surname WARD .... and then presuming that lass married as WARD ....that is not how the system operated in NSW n that era. Mary's baby, as she grew up would have become known by whatever surname Mary was using at the time ... so the lass born 1811 likely may have become known as PRESTON ... very unlikely to have been known as WARD
JM
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WOOPPS!!!!!!
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Before you seek out the Captain of the Canada as your possible ancestor, I think you need to be sure you have a common ancestor among the children of the couple who married in 1828 ... remember that the bride has been transcribed as Mary WEARD.
Do you have an actual image of the parish register, including her signature? If so perhaps you could snip her signature and ask on the decipher board for help. 1828, Mrs Mary McMAHON was alive, in NSW, yet her consent to Mary WEARDs marriage is not mentioned....that is unusual and is another reason for concern .'friends ... consent v consent of mother' ...
I have been seeking Mary PRESTON per Canada, found her in 1814 with husband P McMahon and 2 children, so her 1811 daughter would have then been known as Mary McMAHON.
I have searched carefully BUT I have not found any mention of Mary McMAHON, widow, or her daughter being known by surname WARD or WEARD.
JM.
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Good Morning....well....Mate I dont have such things as an image of the parish records....Im sure someone in the family does amd trust me I would have heard if the name was Weard...I believe this is a typo or just someone that just "dont spell real good" Have you not considered thats why you may be have trouble finding this information..I have been able to supply some answers to your questions from the Family book so have a little info but not such things as parish record or scans.
The name of the Master of the ship was John Ward - but Mary Preston definitely names the father of her daughter (at baptism later in February 1811) as James Ward - we know nothing of him at all apart from the fact he was named as the father of Mary Ward. There is no known convict of this name on the ship, so presumably he was part of the crew and returned with his ship.
There are many familytrees on MyH I carefully borrowed this one from Stephen Wood....as he seems to be the most reliable Familysearch has information there also..isnt it weard that not one mentioned the surname weard
Frances Maria (Mary) Preston/McMahon (born Ward)
1811 - 1837
Birth: Feb 1 1811
Sydney City, New South Wales, Australia
Christening: Feb 10 1811
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Marriage: Marriage to: William Henry Payton
May 19 1828
Pitt Town, New South Wales, Australia
Death: Died in childbirth
Nov 27 1837
Pitt Town, Hawkesbury, New South Wales, Australia
Burial: Nov 29 1837
Pitt Town, Hawkesbury, New South Wales, Australia
Family members
Parents:
James John Ward
1776 - 1812
Mary Ward/mcmahon (born Preston)
1790 - 1862
Husband:
William Henry Payton
1799 - 1869
Mary Preston married an Irish convict, Patrick McMAHON in 1813 and they had a son - John James McMahon - about whom nothing is known; possibly he died young - we don't know. Patrick arrived on the "Anne" in 1810. In 1814 he received a conditional pardon - information given was that he was tried at Middlesex 1809, was a native of Limerick, occupation - attorney, age 29. He was about 5'5" tall, fair ruddy complexion, red hair, hazel eyes. Patrick died in a drunken brawl (he didn't fall, he was pushed) in 1816. Mary, who it seems was nothing short of amazing for her time, put in a claim c 1818 for what we would probably now call damages and lost wages, to Patrick's employer - for the small sum (not) of £6,000 - but I've never found evidence that (a) she received any compensation or (b) that she even went through with the case. This I believe is the source of the "Irish connection" story, continued through to the death certificate of Sophia Wilbow (nee Payton) and continued as oral tradition (possibly) in other family lines. Mary seems to have had her wits about her, she was literate, after the death of her husband she tried to get compensation through legal means and she started a clothing/general goods shop (from memory I think that's what she sold), she advertised in the papers and later she started a lodging house. Mary McMahon (nee Preston)
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WEARD ... If you were to check through the NSW BDMs index for their holdings for many of the Early Church Records they obtained back in the 1850s, you will discover they have the 1828 PAYTON=WEARD marriage, indexed as WEARD.
I have not sighted the actual image, and it is not available from NSW BDM, as those early volumes are fragile. They were indexed by teams of volunteers in the 1930s, experienced people whose own longhand writing styles were similar to those on the parish registers. That style of longhand has not been taught in NSW schools since the mid 1960s. The filming of those Early Church Records holdings held by NSW BDM was completed decades ago.
You should be offering to share your bdm certs with the owner of the submitted tree that you are copy/pasting from, in anticipation that they have the image of that PAYTON=WEARD marriage.
May I again mention that Mary PRESTON does NOT name her daughter as Mary WARD, and it is the Illegitimate List that records the name of the father as James WARD. The list is a compiled list, the information came from a number of sources, it does not show that Mary PRESTON named any person as the father... It shows that the compiler of that list noted the reputed fathers. These illegitimate lists were prepared on a number of occasions in that decade for the civil administrative tasks in respect of General Orders issued by the NSW Governor. Macquarie was focused about criminal intercourse and inheritance rules. See the following cutting:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/627934 Sydney Gazette 24 Feb 1810
JM
Good Morning....well....Mate I dont have such things as an image of the parish records....Im sure someone in the family does amd trust me I would have heard if the name was Weard...I believe this is a typo or just someone that just "dont spell real good" Have you not considered thats why you may be have trouble finding this information..I have been able to supply some answers to your questions from the Family book so have a little info but not such things as parish record or scans.
The name of the Master of the ship was John Ward - but Mary Preston definitely names the father of her daughter (at baptism later in February 1811) as James Ward - we know nothing of him at all apart from the fact he was named as the father of Mary Ward. There is no known convict of this name on the ship, so presumably he was part of the crew and returned with his ship.
There are many familytrees on MyH I carefully borrowed this one from Stephen Wood....as he seems to be the most reliable Familysearch has information there also..isnt it weard that not one mentioned the surname weard
Frances Maria (Mary) Preston/McMahon (born Ward)
1811 - 1837
Birth: Feb 1 1811
Sydney City, New South Wales, Australia
Christening: Feb 10 1811
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Marriage: Marriage to: William Henry Payton
May 19 1828
Pitt Town, New South Wales, Australia
Death: Died in childbirth
Nov 27 1837
Pitt Town, Hawkesbury, New South Wales, Australia
Burial: Nov 29 1837
Pitt Town, Hawkesbury, New South Wales, Australia
Family members
Parents:
James John Ward
1776 - 1812
Mary Ward/mcmahon (born Preston)
1790 - 1862
Husband:
William Henry Payton
1799 - 1869
Mary Preston married an Irish convict, Patrick McMAHON in 1813 and they had a son - John James McMahon - about whom nothing is known; possibly he died young - we don't know. Patrick arrived on the "Anne" in 1810. In 1814 he received a conditional pardon - information given was that he was tried at Middlesex 1809, was a native of Limerick, occupation - attorney, age 29. He was about 5'5" tall, fair ruddy complexion, red hair, hazel eyes. Patrick died in a drunken brawl (he didn't fall, he was pushed) in 1816. Mary, who it seems was nothing short of amazing for her time, put in a claim c 1818 for what we would probably now call damages and lost wages, to Patrick's employer - for the small sum (not) of £6,000 - but I've never found evidence that (a) she received any compensation or (b) that she even went through with the case. This I believe is the source of the "Irish connection" story, continued through to the death certificate of Sophia Wilbow (nee Payton) and continued as oral tradition (possibly) in other family lines. Mary seems to have had her wits about her, she was literate, after the death of her husband she tried to get compensation through legal means and she started a clothing/general goods shop (from memory I think that's what she sold), she advertised in the papers and later she started a lodging house. Mary McMahon (nee Preston)
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NSW BDM index for marriages.
William H PAYTON, Mary WEARD.
1828 Volume 12, Line 801,
1828 Volume 3B, line 297.
I also understand it is also available via Ancestry and Find My Past.
I believe the following is the marriage of Mary McMAHON a widow, ex Canada 1810, aged 39, to John WILSON 10 April 1838, Castlereagh.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZK-CQR
Castlereagh is of course in the Hawkesbury District, and just like Pitt Town is one of the five Macquarie Towns.
ADD
My transcription:
John WILSON, free, of Penrith, per Byron 2, aged 58, signed, and Mary MACMAHON, of Penrith, per Canada, aged 39, signed, married by Banns, 10 April 1838, Castlereagh CofE, by Henry Fulton. Witnesses: Thomas PURDY x mark, Ann ABBOTT, signed.
I understand Banns were read 25 March, 1 April, 8 April, 1838.
JM
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I have located the submitted tree that you have mentioned, and according to that tree William Henry McMAHON was born May 8, 1826 , in Pitt Town NSW and he was baptised 6 December 1737, Gloucester, St Michael, Gloucestershire, England.
It is of course, ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to be baptised BEFORE they have been born.
“ William Henry McMahon (Born Payton) was born on May 8, 1826, in Pitt Town, New South Wales, Australia, to Frances Maria(Mary) Ward/McMahon, age 15, and William Henry Payton, age 27.”
ADD same submitted tree has the following info re the lass born to Mary PRESTON.
"When Frances Maria(Mary) Ward/McMahon was born on February 1, 1811, her father, Patrick, was 26, and her mother, Mary, was 21. She had one son and two daughters with William Henry Payton between 1826 and 1836. She died as a young mother in 1837 in Pitt Town, New South Wales, Australia, at the age of 26, and was buried in Maldon, Essex, England."
I wonder how the body was repatriated to England...
JM
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Wait ... that same submitted tree, they have found your James WARD in NSW
'When John Ward was born in 1812, his father, James, was 36 and his mother, Mary, was 22. He had two children with Sarah Murray and four children with Margaret Ward. He died in 1859 in Campbelltown, New South Wales, Australia, at the age of 47, and was buried in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia.'
"Birth
John Ward was born in 1812 to Mary Preston, age 22, and James Ward, age 36.'
It is unwise to rely on submitted trees.
JM
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I cant help wondering if your confusion is coming from this on Familysearch..seems to be a mix up here..Most likely a computer match up and people have gone with it and adopted it into their trees..one born Feb the other March both Mary and both Mothers are Mary
Mary Preston
Australia Births and Baptisms, 1792-1981
birth:
1 February 1811
christening:
10 February 1811
ST. PHILIP, SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES, AUSTRALIA
residence:
1811
New South Wales, Australia father:
James Ward
mother:
Mary Preston
.....................
Mary Preston
Australia Births and Baptisms, 1792-1981
birth:
26 March 1811
ST. PHILIP, SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES, AUSTRALIA
christening:
9 April 1811
residence:
1811
New South Wales, Australia father:
John Preston
mother:
Mary
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I am not confused. Please carefully read my posts on this thread, as You will find I have already given you the info for both those, you need to consider inspecting the images of the official documents instead of copy/paste sections from other family trees.
Do you descend from the McMahon chap who died in Forbes NSW or from one of William Henry's daughters?
JM
I cant help wondering if your confusion is coming from this on Familysearch..seems to be a mix up here..Most likely a computer match up and people have gone with it and adopted it into their trees..one born Feb the other March both Mary and both Mothers are Mary
Mary Preston
Australia Births and Baptisms, 1792-1981
birth:
1 February 1811
christening:
10 February 1811
ST. PHILIP, SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES, AUSTRALIA
residence:
1811
New South Wales, Australia father:
James Ward
mother:
Mary Preston
.....................
Mary Preston
Australia Births and Baptisms, 1792-1981
birth:
26 March 1811
ST. PHILIP, SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES, AUSTRALIA
christening:
9 April 1811
residence:
1811
New South Wales, Australia father:
John Preston
mother:
Mary
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Primary Source Documents held by NSW Archives, and originated by the NSW Governors in the 1820s:
My transcriptions:
:) 15 September 1825 Certificate of Freedom 054/4273 replaced CF 8/1807 for Mary PRESTON, Canada (2), 1810, ex Middlesex Gaol Delivery 20 Sept 1809, Seven Year sentence, native of London, a Housekeeper, (now aged) 34 years …… Grey hair …. See Reel 602 at NSW State Archives, as per the Convict index : https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/convicts/indexes
:) :) :) Likely you would find digitised image of the official register of that replacement CF via Ancestry or FindMyPast as both have current partnership arrangements with NSW Archives. Likely you will find digitised image of the 1825 General Muster and of the 1828 NSW Census online at various family history websites.
:) 1825 General Muster, Mary PRESTON, per Canada arriving 1811, Free by Servitude, Widow, McMahon, residing Windsor
:) NSW 1828 Census Mary PRESTON aged 38 per Canada 1810 at Pitt Town, Servant to James FLOYD.
I believe those official documents and the parish registers would be vital documents to consider as confirming/eliminating any Mary PRESTON as part of your family history, however, I do readily acknowledge that each family historian can decide for themselves how and what and when and where and why they want to include any person in their own records of their family trees.
JM
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=807635.0
1242
name : PRESTON Mary,
age : 38
Free or Bond : FS (Free by Servitude)
Ship : Canada
Year : 1810
Sentence : 7 (years)
Religion : Pro (Protestant)
Employment : Servant
Residence : James Floyd
District : Pitt Town
https://www.paperturn-view.com/nsw-state-archives/1828-census-5-of-6-nrs1272-sz-982?pid=NDM43344&v=1.1
I leave it to you to follow up with all the others mentioned previously on this thread as being in NSW in 1828.
JM
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The only 1828 marriage listed for a bride with the surname WARD that is displayed at the NSW BDM index is for the marriage of an Ann WARD and henry HITCHCOCK. There is NO marriage listed for any Mary WARD in 1828.
HOWEVER
The NSW BDM index definitely has the 1828 marriage for a bride with the surname WEARD. I have already posted those details, but just in case you missed them: William H PAYTON and Mary WEARD Volume 12, line 801 and Volume 3B, line 4297. The Early Church Code is CS, which is for Church of England, Pitt Town.
Mary MacMAHON and John WILSON’s 1838 marriage is in Volume 22, line 1832. The Early Church Code is CD, which is for Church of England, Castlereagh
May I assure you that there is NO listing at NSW BDM online index for a birth/baptism for a Mary WARD in 1811. The 1811 baptism of Mary, daughter of Mary PRESTON per the Canada has two likely entries at NSW BDM online index and these are Volume 6, Line 349 and Volume 1A line 2362. And of course in both those volumes (1A and 6) there will also be the baptism for John and Mary PRESTONs baby born in March 1811.
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search?0
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/history-of-registry.aspx
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Documents/early-church-codes.pdf
I leave it to you to follow up with confirming the various NSW bdm records for your family members. I do suggest you give serious consideration to obtaining the official records, either via the films available via family search or NSW Ark kits (perhaps Tasmania's state library has a set) or as official transcriptions from NSW official transcribers. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
Add
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history-research/family-history-research-nsw.aspx
and
https://www.sag.org.au/
JM
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I will attach a sample of one page from the many pages for 1809 Baptisms of Illegitimate Children (NSW)
Notice that you can see there are pages underneath it, and that this page has around 20 entries on it, covering part of November and much of December 1809. Notice it is all in the same handwriting. Notice there are line numbers, page numbers, and other clerical notations. The 1810 lists, the 1811 lists all very similar. I am familiar with transcribing these lists up as a volunteer transcriber, years and errr ... decades ago.
JM
ADD it is now 20 June 2019, 12:30 pm NSW time, and the attachment has been downloaded ten times. The OP has been online several times since I first uploaded that sample page and since I posted reply #51. I will remove it in case there is any copyright issue aspect associated with it.
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I am not confused. Please carefully read my posts on this thread,.....
Do you descend from the McMahon chap who died in Forbes NSW or from one of William Henry's daughters?
.....
I am interested in learning the answer to that question, :) I can see you have been online several times since I last posted, and that the sample page has been downloaded at least 9 times already.
JM
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orry about the delay...three things....this is not the direction I wanted to go remember the Captain John B Ward and I asked around the wifes Family ..most are happy with the information they already have, however I gave them the link, so bet ya they took a copy...as I said Im only mildly interested,But I have to say what an interesting story..from Preston to Ward and because of a death one son going with McMahon. The wife's family are McMahon and because of another death the wife's Mum was given another name ...Trust me a DNA nightmare
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Yes, you wanted birth, marriage, death for the captain of the ship that transported Mary Preston to NSW in 1810 in case you could find the DNA link between him and her daughter born several months after Mary landed in Sydney, and you believe that daughter is an ancestor of your wife's family because a number of submitted trees show that in 1828 a Mary Ward married in NSW.
HOWEVER those submitted trees have a number of significant flaws and none have provided independent evidence to supporr their offerings, while official historical NSW records that I have provided transcripts from are not giving any reason to suspect the Captain of that 1810 voyage as a reputed father of that 1811 born lass.
You need to obtain some official records and examine them in minute detail.
JM sorry for typos, one finger typing on e reader ::)
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Had a quick look as your link to NSW didnt work...but heres something for you....MAYBE you are mistaken...
A William Henry Payton of Hampshire England Not [Bengal Green London] "ours" married Mary Weard
same time in NSW and I reckon the computer matching has copied over Sophie the daughter as thats correct...many things are the same except where his place of origin
V1828801 3B/1828 & V18284297 12/1827 NSW BDM
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Had a quick look as your link to NSW didnt work...but heres something for you....MAYBE you are mistaken...
A William Henry Payton of Hampshire England Not [Bengal Green London] "ours" married Mary Weard
same time in NSW and I reckon the computer matching has copied over Sophie the daughter as thats correct...many things are the same except where his place of origin
V1828801 3B/1828 & V18284297 12/1827 NSW BDM
Do you have a copy of either of those TWO Early Church Records? You see, the transcription I typed up is from the Early Church Record. May I please assure you that the NSW BDM computer listing that you have quoted is simply the INDEX reference to the actual documents. You can order the NSW BDM documents direct from them or from any of their official transcription agents. The WEARD listing is based on the NSW BDM index originally prepared by teams of volunteers back in the 1930s. WEARD is the word read by the volunteers inspecting the 1828 parish registers for marriages. They were NOT cross matching against baptisms.
Please also consider that that 1828 document for the marriage of PAYTON=WEARD does NOT give you identifying information about where William Henry PAYTON was born, so please do consider spending around $20 Australian and get your own copy of the official transcription of that 1828 marriage.
I wonder if you have considered seeking out the 1826 baptism for that the William Henry McMAHON who died in Forbes NSW October, 1918. Afterall, you will likely need that to establish who was named on that baptism as his birth mother, and the submitted trees show he was born May 1826 so two years or so before the PAYTON=WEARD marriage occurred.
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/history-of-registry.aspx
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search?0
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Documents/early-church-codes.pdf
These links working fine for me this morning.
V1828801 3B/1828 & V18284297 12/1827 NSW BDM
Volume 3B, line 801, of 1828
Volume 12, line 4297, of 1828
I should mention that several of my elderly rellies are avid followers of my RChat posts, and among those rellies are retired NSW BDM senior officers and retired NSW CofE clergy. They are assuring me that you should seek to obtain fresh official transcripts for that 1828 marriage.
JM
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I am also advised that you should consider obtaining a fresh copy of an official transcription of the marriage registration of annie SOWDO and William Henry MCMAHON/MACMAHON registered in 1862, in the Wentworth BDM district in NSW. The Reference number is 1319. It is very likely that there are elusive blanks on the NSW BDM civil registration, so I am not suggesting you seek to obtain the 'real deal' NSW BDM issued certificate, but that once you have the official transcription, you can then go about finding out from the Church register what information the bridegroom provided about himself and his origins, including his own parents.
Here is a link to a thread that I prepared a number of years ago, I am happy to help you strive to sort out any elusive blanks on that 1862 NSW bdm record 1319/1862.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
You may also find that there are many free to search live links available to help your research:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/ then to
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0 then to
Transcription Agents I have found each of these organisations to provide an excellent service.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
JM
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I have finally found an online transcription that has the bride’s maiden name indexed as WARD, so perhaps you may consider contacting them and seeking a copy of that page from the register to decide for yourself what surname the bride was known by in 1828 and how she signed the register. Please do remember to note who gave consent for that 1828 marriage, as the bride was not yet 21, so not yet old enough to give her own consent, and ... Mary PRESTON per the Canada in 1810 was living in the same district as the bride in 1828, so you need to consider why her consent was not given or at least sought, of course if she was not the mother of the bride, then she would not be the person to give such consent. But if she was the mother of the bride, then her consent should have been sought, and if she withheld it, it ought to be noted on that register or within the clergy returns.
Hawkesbury on the Net Church Registers … so their volunteers have accessed the parish register and are reading the surname as WARD … Seems to be the 6th entry in one of the parish registers for St James C of E covering the years 1826-1834. . http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/church/marriages/sjmr1826.html
They are looking for volunteers to help with their ongoing project to transcribe the available church registers in the Hawkesbury Region. Currently transcribing St James burial/baptism registers…
http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/
http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/familyhistory/
JM
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OK OK you have worn me down....I have asked around the Family nobody is interested..however I do think you have raised a very interesting point..as per
I have finally found an online transcription that has the bride’s maiden name indexed as WARD, so perhaps you may consider contacting them and seeking a copy of that page from the register to decide for yourself what surname the bride was known by in 1828 and how she signed the register. Please do remember to note who gave consent for that 1828 marriage, as the bride was not yet 21, so not yet old enough to give her own consent, and ... Mary PRESTON per the Canada in 1810 was living in the same district as the bride in 1828, so you need to consider why her consent was not given or at least sought, of course if she was not the mother of the bride, then she would not be the person to give such consent. But if she was the mother of the bride, then her consent should have been sought, and if she withheld it, it ought to be noted on that register or within the clergy returns.
When you say CONTACT THEM...you have sent so many links I not sure anymore which one...so as you say cost around $20..would you kindly give me an address and the correct numbers so I may ask for the information on the certificate for this 1828 wedding between Mary and McMahon Please.
So its down to the flip of a coin...if you are correct it will read Mary and some other surname and If Im correct it will read Ward..which is where I wanted to be in my original post. Wouldnt be at all surprised if when Mary the Mother married Mary Jr went with that surname..
I havnt forgotten you mentioned Mary was Baptized 1811 with no surname...
cheers Rick
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I have read back through the thread. I am convinced that your best option is working backwards from the known ancestor of your wife, so I think you need to determine the names of the parents of the bride and groom on the 1862 NSW marriage before you can have confidence in going back any earlier.
I am also advised that you should consider obtaining a fresh copy of an official transcription of the marriage registration of annie SOWDO and William Henry MCMAHON/MACMAHON registered in 1862, in the Wentworth BDM district in NSW. The Reference number is 1319. It is very likely that there are elusive blanks on the NSW BDM civil registration, so I am not suggesting you seek to obtain the 'real deal' NSW BDM issued certificate, but that once you have the official transcription, you can then go about finding out from the Church register what information the bridegroom provided about himself and his origins, including his own parents.
Here is a link to a thread that I prepared a number of years ago, I am happy to help you strive to sort out any elusive blanks on that 1862 NSW bdm record 1319/1862.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
You may also find that there are many free to search live links available to help your research:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/ then to
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0 then to
Transcription Agents I have found each of these organisations to provide an excellent service.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
Re Your comment : I havnt forgotten you mentioned Mary was Baptized 1811 with no surname... Baptisms are NOT about giving a person a 'surname'. I was born 1947, I have older and younger siblings. All baptised Co E, in regional NSW as babies. The parish registers do NOT confer us with surnames. Our births were all registered in NSW. Our original birth certificates do NOT give us surnames. NSW BDM civil birth registrations commenced to include surnames in the late 1960s.
From the Resources Board for NSW that I linked earlier :
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/ click on this link and from there go to the following link
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0 click on that link and from there scroll through to reply 2 : https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.msg2445941#msg2445941 and from there, scroll though until you get to the following:
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605008173551/ 1826 – 1837 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157604433014652/ 1837 – 1838 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605132739200/ 1839 – 1861 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
.... etc
click on the various links as per what ever description suits ... eg baptisms 1826-1837 ... the headings on the parish register include 'Child's Christian Name' and 'Parents' Surname' .... Those images are from the CofE ... Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle NSW, so for the Diocese, not just ceremonies at Hexham.
Civil Registrations
Samples of NSW BDM civil registrations are here at the following live link from NSW BDM :)
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history-research/interesting-certificates.aspx - scroll through and get to Henry Lawson. His birth certificate is typical of civil registrations. The heading is 'Name and whether present or not' ... his name is registered as Henry, and it does NOT include a SURNAME.
The concept giving a surname to a baby at birth simply did NOT come about in NSW in the 19th Century. It was not something that caused a bother. The baby 'became known by' whatever surname their mother was using at the time. So, if mum was a married woman, she was known in her local community by her husband's surname, and so the child took on the surname of mum and thus everyone presumed her mum's husband was the dad of the child. In respect of the 1811 entry on that list of illegitimate children who were baptised. The clergy were NOT concerned as to the status of the baby's parents (married or not). The baptism ceremony was about the BABY, and not about the parents. The lists were prepared on a quarterly basis, the clerks went through the parish registers and made the lists out based on summary info and were not concerned with recording how the parents of the babies had arrived in NSW, or if the named father was actually the biological father, or just the current 'beau'.
If your William Henry McMahon who married in 1862 is the son of William Henry PEYTON/PAYTON who married in 1828 to Mary WEARD/WARD then once you have proven that your next task is to find the link from that Mary to her parents, and that will be a difficult task too, as the NSW records became scant on information. The online trees that I have examined have 'guessed' there is a papertrail back to the voyage of the Canada in 1810, but none have offered 'proof' .... so I am suggesting you start with the known ie with the 1862 marriage, and you seek out all the elusive blanks on that registration ie both the bride's side and the bridegroom's side.
JM
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Hi...you said
Please do remember to note who gave consent for that 1828 marriage, as the bride was not yet 21, so not yet old enough to give her own consent, and ...
Feed back from a transcriber I contacted about the above sentence..
these early marriages i.e. prior to 1856 very rarely name the person(s) who gave consent to a marriage. They only state 'WITH CONSENT OF PARENT or PARENTS" or "FRIENDS".
So not much to be gained there...however I did find a source from Familysearch that had already been found..sadly it wouldnt let me copy, but this is what it says
Husband William H Mcmahon or Payton zw31-LPF
Mother Ann Sowden LLMP-V2P
sources and notes
Birth of William H Payton1834-1918
Birth of William H Payton from Sydney BDM 748/1934 v1834748-18 no registration district recorded and Father is Henry Payton and Mother is Mary
as I suspected...a lot of work for not much gain..
cheers Rick
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Rick,
So you have not sought to obtain the actual image of the parish register for that 1828 marriage that would give you the image of the signatures of the bride and groom and witnesses. May I assure you that I have quite a collection of CofE marriages from late 1790s through the 1810s and 1820s and the clergy conducting many of those marriages have recorded the information about consent when one of the parties is not yet 21 years of age, and neither party are under a Bond (ie not convicts).
Re the 1862 marriage, you need to consider obtaining the official transcription as it will give you the details of the denomination and the clergyman's name etc, as I anticipate that that marriage has not been reconciled by NSW BDM, and thus has the elusive blanks on it. Once you have determined the denomination and the clergyman's name, then it is a matter seeking out that parish register to learn what the bride and the groom provided about their origins, and their parents to that clergyman. Until you have that information, you really cannot even start to consider if you can join the dots back to the 1828 marriage.
Studying NSW family history, particularly in the penal era is full of traps, and many people 'guess' they are connected just because a surname may 'match' up with someone else's 'guess' work. I have a long history of studying those eras, and I have a very reliable backup via my living retired rellies, public servants at senior levels in NSW BDM and in AO (ie Archives) and retired CofE clergy. As in all family history researches, I do urge all family history buffs to seek out ways to get back to the primary sources, rather than spending hours and hours, and days and weeks going through other peoples submitted family trees.
I see that now you are placing William Henry's dates as 1834-1918, from familysearch, from the submitted genealogies... and you mention 'Birth' for William H Payton as 1834. Birth of William H Payton from Sydney BDM 748/1934 v1834748-18 no registration district recorded and Father is Henry Payton and Mother is Mary
as I suspected...a lot of work for not much gain..
Do you actually have the document? If not, why not consider purchasing an official transcription of it, the details you have offered perhaps have some errors but I think it is referring to a Church of England baptism (not a birth record, but a baptism record) for 1834 (not 1934) as found at line 748 in volume 18, if so, then that actual record is available from NSW BDM and any of their official transcriptions as a document that family history buffs can rely on.
I am not aware of any family history researchers that would place equal or greater importance on the submitted trees at any website ahead of the actual primary source material available from independent official sources when researching NSW in the penal or colonial eras. In fact, I think one of the best aspects of RootsChat is that it places emphasis on finding the independent resources rather than relying on submitted trees, whether on say familysearch or on the commercial websites.
Of course, it is up to you to decide what you want to put on your own tree, but if, as I had understood, you were seeking DNA matches, you do need to be accurate in your research and you do need to have confidence that the persons you are matching to have been as accurate as you in finding the paper trail in the first instance.
JM
Hi...you said
Please do remember to note who gave consent for that 1828 marriage, as the bride was not yet 21, so not yet old enough to give her own consent, and ...
Feed back from a transcriber I contacted about the above sentence..
these early marriages i.e. prior to 1856 very rarely name the person(s) who gave consent to a marriage. They only state 'WITH CONSENT OF PARENT or PARENTS" or "FRIENDS".
So not much to be gained there...however I did find a source from Familysearch that had already been found..sadly it wouldnt let me copy, but this is what it says
Husband William H Mcmahon or Payton zw31-LPF
Mother Ann Sowden LLMP-V2P
sources and notes
Birth of William H Payton1834-1918
Birth of William H Payton from Sydney BDM 748/1934 v1834748-18 no registration district recorded and Father is Henry Payton and Mother is Mary
as I suspected...a lot of work for not much gain..
cheers Rick
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Want a Job????
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Want a Job????
No, I am very happy to help any RChatter, but I am not seeking to make a financial gain from anyone involved in family history.
JM
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I am also advised that you should consider obtaining a fresh copy of an official transcription of the marriage registration of annie SOWDO and William Henry MCMAHON/MACMAHON registered in 1862, in the Wentworth BDM district in NSW. The Reference number is 1319. It is very likely that there are elusive blanks on the NSW BDM civil registration, so I am not suggesting you seek to obtain the 'real deal' NSW BDM issued certificate, but that once you have the official transcription, you can then go about finding out from the Church register what information the bridegroom provided about himself and his origins, including his own parents.
Here is a link to a thread that I prepared a number of years ago, I am happy to help you strive to sort out any elusive blanks on that 1862 NSW bdm record 1319/1862.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
You may also find that there are many free to search live links available to help your research:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/ then to
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0 then to
Transcription Agents I have found each of these organisations to provide an excellent service.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
JM
The official transcription of that 1862 marriage will set you back around $20 on your plastic card. There are three official transcription agents appointed by NSW BDM and in my experience each provides an excellent service. Once you have that actual document we can work back towards the possible connection to the 1828 marriage. One step at a time.
JM
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OK and fair enough...between my reply and your reply a relation has answered an said her father ..
"every genealogist dream"....has a metal box about A4 size and thinks there might be copies of the original certificates, as apparently he was right into his tree yah...hope so anyway...sadly will have to wait for up to two weeks for her to email me from Sydney
Here's a twist that I didnt know...apparently if a female convict got pregnant on the way over to Australia and had an illegitimate child, they were able to use the Captains name as the father..might help to explain the Ward Surname.....in your experience have you heard of this before
cheers Rick
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If you were researching all the Baptisms that are found in the parish registers, you would definitely consider if the clerks compiling those lists were noting the mother's ship of arrival and the name of the captain as a way of identifying the mum, however I have not ever heard it explained in terms something specific only to the illegitimate baptisms lists ... You need to consider that the baptism of Mary, Feb 1811 does not confirm her mum arrived per the Canada 1810. There were other lasses in NSW in that era who were known by the name 'Mary Preston' ... there's a great deal of elimination needed before you can have confidence in the details.... And firstly we need to know about the 1862 marriage .... before we can work back to earlier generations...
......
Here's a twist that I didnt know...apparently if a female convict got pregnant on the way over to Australia and had an illegitimate child, they were able to use the Captains name as the father..might help to explain the Ward Surname.....in your experience have you heard of this before
cheers Rick
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I don't want to panic you, but have you considered that the chap who died in Forbes in 1918, William Henry McMAHON, was actually born 1826, McMAHON ... perhaps the son of Mary PRESTON who arrived per the Canada 1810.... And that Mary PRESTON had married Patrick MCMAHON and then was widowed and then met a William PAYTON and had his son in 1826, and so the lad was known already as a McMAHON rather than a PAYTON. :D
JM
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Once upon a time I asked the question of this forum about a Captain of the ship Canada.Captain John B Ward potential father of the girl born 1811 Mary Ward.
I gave this rootschat link to relations and friends to follow ..in the hope of many heads would make light work...
I certainly have rattled the Families cage!!!!
Ive since learned there are many James and John Wards and many Mary Wards and Mary Prestons as below.
also that the Captain apparently was responsible if any female convicts got pregnant on the trip over,so his surname was able to be given as father,so was the ship
I also learned some Family have copies of the original parish records well and truly salted down for safe keeping
these early marriages i.e. prior to 1856 very rarely name the person(s) who gave consent to a marriage
Transcribing are from the registers that are held at the registry of BDM are only copies..the films however, the copies that are available are copied from original registers.
Given the fact that the indexes for NSW BDM were outsourced to a country where English was not the first language of the people doing the transcribing, it is not surprising that errors have crept in.
James Ward c 1770 - 1812. sentenced to seven years transportation on 12 December 1787
* arrived on the Surprize 1790
* landholder by 1800 in Hawkesbury district
* the woman was Mary Long (convict) she lived with Ward from about 1805 and they had three sons - James (1806); William (1809) Mary {1811] and John (1811)
This Mary married William H Payton
James John Ward 1776-1812 his father William Ward 1744-1815 his father John Ward 1728-1762
married May 19 1828 Mary Preston 1790-1862
daughter Mary Ward b. 1811 married William H Payton
Mary Weard b 1 Feb 1811 d. 27 Nov 1837 Pitt town
married 19 May 1828 William H Payton 1799-1869
James Ward married 1808 Sydney Mary Preston
2 kids William Ward 1809 and Mary Ward 1811 went on to marry W H Payton
Then of coarse there is the grey eyed Mary Ward born 1811 and arrived Sydney 1828
We have of coarse many DNA matches to WARD, which I might add is a very good clue..so I think I will continue to monitor the Ward matches until we get a bulls eye
Sadly the Ward surname is as popular a surname as Smith.....so would just like finish up with a Thankyou very much for all your tips and suggestions.
A Lovely day here today mid winter so to make myself feel even better I shall share a nice little Genealogy Poem
The kin of old
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Whoever has told you that NSW BDM index provided online at no charge, was outsourced to another country "Given the fact that the indexes for NSW BDM were outsourced to a country where English was not the first language of the people doing the transcribing, it is not surprising that errors have crept in." is telling you absolute rubbish, however, if you are relying on indexes from say Ancestry or FindMyPast or similar, then you may have some more intimate knowledge than me.
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Re the poem you posted...
I believe it is drawn from http://baldockfaggfamily.org.uk/2016/04/05/their-story/
© April 2016, Steve Baldock
and I wonder about if the copyright holder has provided express permission for it to be posted in the public forum that is RootsChat.
JM ADD: R2M sent.
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Given the fact that the indexes for NSW BDM were outsourced to a country where English was not the first language of the people doing the transcribing, it is not surprising that errors have crept in
Given the fact that the exotic foreign land to which you refer was ........ errr ........ AUSTRALIA, you might want to consider comedy as a career choice.
You certainly made me chuckle ;D
Carol
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There are many lasses in NSW easily found in archives covering the 1820s who were known as Mary WARD, including the following lass.
http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/
(Reel 6040; 4/403 p. 104 and p. 110)
NSW Col Sec papers 1788-1825
Female Orphan School
14 May 1823
104
Resolved …
On the Application of the Revd Richard Hill it was ordered that Mary Ward be allowed to him as an apprentice. ……
12 November 1823
110
Resolved that Mary Ward, ………, ………., and …….. be apprenticed to the Institution…..
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/agency/398 Female Orphan School
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/hill-richard-2182 Australian Dictionary of Biography, Richard Hill.
JM
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Hi all,
I’m a descendant of the Pitt Town / Forbes McMahons and only a couple of months into researching our family history. I was genuinely surprised to find that there was a thread looking into Mary Preston / James Ward and most of what has been written on here is in line with what I have heard through our families oral history. I realize that this thread has been inactive for a couple of years and was hoping that perhaps someone has since unearthed documents that shed additional light on these relationships? I’ve recently ordered and received a number of records from births, deaths and marriages from another side of my family which set a number of questions to rest and thought it prudent to ask if someone had already attained docs re Preston / Ward before proceeding.
My sister and I have recently had ancestry DNA tests done and our ethnicity estimates have both come back as 0% English (we are primarily Scottish, Irish and Welsh). These tests have identified common ancestors in WH McMahon (born Payton) and Annie Sowden and shared DNA with persons on this branch. The ancestors of both these individuals on multiple trees show many generations residing and marrying in England. If these trees were correct then it would be highly unlikely that we have 0% English DNA. Perhaps our family has been telling the wrong story for a few generations?
Once more, I would appreciate hearing if any additional records or information has been unearthed in the past 2 years that may de-muddy the waters before I set about ordering any. I am very new to this and on a steep learning curve, so thank you in advance :)