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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: rosie17 on Tuesday 11 June 19 14:16 BST (UK)
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Looking for some help in finding this couple on the 1871 census I have them 1881.1891 1901
1881 at Swinton Berwickshire
John Hope born about 1841 Coldstream Berwickshire occupation Arg Lab
Jane Hope also born Coldstream Berwickshire
Their family David 17,Julia 15,Maggie 11,Annie 9 Mary 7
I also can not find a marriage for this couple and begining to think there is no marriage ..Thought I might have got a marriage date from their children's births but not having much luck with that either
I have the death for Jane Bolton /Hope 1908 and there is a correction record saying she died at the house occupied by her husband John Hope ::)
Rosie
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I cant find them together as a Family in 1871 in Scotland or England either Rosie.
Could John have been married before and this is Jane with Daug Maggie born 1870?
1871 Census
Coldstream, Berwick
Ann Nisbet, 78, Head, Widow, Formerly Farm Worker, born England
John Nisbet, 12, Grandson
Elizabeth Nisbet, 8, Grand/Daug
William Nisbet, 4, Grandson
JANE Bolton, 35, Neice, Farm Worker, born Coldsm, berwickre
Margaret Bolton, 1, Grand or Great Niece (Great Niece) born Coldingham
Trish :)
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Birth 31 July 1869, Margaret Drysdale BOLTON, Mother JANE Bolton
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That's her Trish ;...Jane Bolton's mother was Margaret Drysdale so that's her in the 1871 census
Thanks Trish ..now to hunt for the rest of the family
Rosie
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Great find by Trish :)
Rosie, I have tried to find something for you but failing miserably!
Odd that nothing shows for children's births. Have you traced back John Hope to an earlier census. If so, where was he in 1861? What were his parents' names?
Monica
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Have you been able to view the marriages for the children born in the 1860s such as David and Julia? Wondering who they showed as their mother. Assuming that John Hope and Jane Bolton did not get together until some point in the 1870s.
Monica
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Have a look at these children's births on FS:
www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bbirth_place%3Ascotland%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1855-1888~%20%2Bfather_givenname%3Ajohn~%20%2Bfather_surname%3Ablyth~%20%2Bmother_givenname%3Amary~%20%2Bmother_surname%3Aloftus
Their children as you can see include:
David 1863
Julia 1865
Ann 1871
Can't easily see a marriage for them.
There is a death for a Mary Blythe/Loftus in Coldstream in 1874.
Monica
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1871 has:
John Blythe 35 hawker b. Yetholm, Roxburghshire
Mary Lofts 30 tailor's wife (?!) b. Mayo, Ireland
David Blythe 8 b. Yetholm
Julia Blythe 6 b. Yetholm
Mary Blythe 1 b. Yetholm
Address: Main Road, Yetholm Rox.
Death for young Mary: Mary Loftus BLYTHE, aged 3 1872 in Coldstream
Monica
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Hi Monica Marriage for the son David Hope 1892 has the parents as John Hope and Jane Hope maiden name Bolton ...Still not seeing a marriage for the parents there are a few possible matches for John Hope in earlier census records ..Not found a death yet for John Hope to get his parents will have another look tomorrow
Rosie
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1861:
John Loftus 33 b. Ireland
Mary Loftus 28 wife b. Ireland
Patrick Loftus 6
William Loftus 3
Michael Loftus 1
Julia Loftus 63 mother b. Ireland
John Blythe 24 visitor basket maker b. Yetholm, Roxburghshire
Mary Blythe 23 visitor b. Ireland
Matthew Blythe 2 *
Patrick Blythe 2 Months *
Missed these off the FS link above. Also born in Yetholm.
Why would John change his name from Blythe to Hope ???
Monica
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1881 census John Hope says he was born 1841 Coldstream Berwickshire Ag Lab:
1891 John Hope 1842 down as England Ag Lab
1901 John Hope 1844 Lillieslief Roxburgh ploughman
Rosie
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Outside chance?
1851 Census
John Blythe, 35, Hawker Earthen Ware, born Yetholm, Roxburghshire
Elisabeth Blythe, 30, born Yorkshire
Andrew Blythe, 12, born Yetholm
David Blythe, 10, born Yetholm
JOHN Blythe, 8, born Yetholm
Stewart Blythe, 5, born Carham, Northumberland
William Blythe, 3, born Yetholm
Martha Blythe, 1 mth, born Yetholm
1861 John is not at Home. The Father John is a Basket Maker.
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Thanks Monica and Trish for your help still no further advanced the 1871 census for David and Julie as Blythe I would think would be right Monica as don't see them as Blythe on the 1881 census ..Wonder how he changed his name to John Hope ::)..There was an Anne Blythe born 1871 Yetholm Roxburgh to John and Mary Loftus ..Checked the death for Annie Hope 1903 married name Linton and the parents are still listed as John Hope and Jane Bell ..There is a possibility I have John Hope on the 1911 census in Westruther as a boarder with a Robert and Mary Craw ..Gives his age as 73 farm servant widower born Lillieslief Roxburgh which would make him born about 1838 ...I also have him on the
Valuation Rolls 1906 1907 at House Blythe Lauder where his wife died ...Still not finding a death for him as Hope or Blythe ... ???
Rosie
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You certainly have yourself a puzzle here, Rosie ;)
Given the name of first born son Matthew for John Blythe and wife Mary Loftus, I thought this might be him in 1851 (haven't been able to find 1841 so far):
www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=81103059
We had this earlier, but adding again as a link from 1861:
www.scottishindexes.com/61transcript.aspx?houseid=80303001
Can't see any reference at all so far to a John Hope that could fit in the earlier censuses :-\
Monica
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Scottish Indexes' Prison Registers show:
John Blythe, Muggar, Yetholm 12 Yetholm Jedburgh 1850
www.scottishindexes.com/advanced.aspx
Blythe family trees on A/try also include:
1850 • Yetholm
Imprisoned as a youth. Name John Blythe Occupation Muggar Residence Yetholm Year Jailed 1850 Age 12 Estimated Birth Year 1838 Birthplace Yetholm Sex M Prison Jedburgh County Roxburghshire NRS Reference HH21/16/2 p. 18
Adding for background. Doesn't help with the Blythe v. Hope issue here...
Monica
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Just had a look at some of the Blythe tree's on Ancestry which I never thought to check to busy looking for Hope ;)..I see they have the mother down as Elizabeth Hope father Mathew Blythe the Blythe family seemed to like their holiday's in jail ::) ...Yes Monica this family is quite a problem
I am doing this for my son in law not as easy as I thought it would be ....Will have a look and see if I can find any family on the 1841 census
Rosie
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Perhaps this family is hard to track down as they are travellers, or gypsies. The last Queen of the Gypsies in Yetholm was Esther Faa BLYTHE
https://www.scottishgypsies.co.uk/esther.html
The occupations of 'mugger' (seller of earthen ware) and basket maker also point to them being gypsies.
Regards,
Lesley
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Thanks, Lesley. In my utter ignorance, I read 'mugger' as his crime (with the modern use of the word) :-X
I came across this:
The Travellers, or Gypsies as they used to be called, have a long association with this region and once had a ‘royal family’ enthroned at Kirk Yetholm, just over the border from Wooler. There is some evidence to suggest that the former American President Bill Clinton is a descendent of the royal family of Yetholm.
Clinton was born William Blyth IV and only adopted his stepfather’s name ‘Clinton’ when he was at college. Genealogists have traced the president’s lineage back to an uncle of Queen Esther Faa Blyth, one Andrew Blyth, who moved to America in 1801–....
www.geni.com/projects/Romani-Gypsy-Notables/13111
Rosie, I do hope we are able to link up John from Blythe to Hope. It will be such an interesting ancestry to research. I think we are on the right track, but how to turn pencil mark to pen!
Monica
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A chink of light, Rosie...
Have a look at this tree (there are others). I like this one because it includes lots of photos as you move back and sideways to the connected lines www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/116883101/person/190159057208/facts
Also, www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3SLG-3FL
We have Matthew Blythe and Elizabeth as potential parents to your John.
Elizabeth's maiden name looks to be Hope...(sorry missed your ealier mention of Hope from post #15)
Monica
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Wherever John was born, this looks to be his christening:
John Blyth
Christening 01 Dec 1835 at KIRKNEWTON,NORTHUMBERLAND,ENGLAND
Father's Name Matthew Blyth
Mother's Name Elizabeth
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQG1-9HD
Brothers Andrew and David also look to have been born/ christened in Kirknewton:
David 1837 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NGSB-R4T
Andrew 1839 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWWB-D91
Likely this is where they may be in 1841...although, I still can't find them that year!
Monica
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Rosie, Monica & Trish (good work folks)
I think the family are in Yetholm 1841? (SP)...
There are a squad of them, 3 families (25 people) all together.
Input only surname Blithe
BLITHE JOHN 24
811/ 3/ 15 Yetholm, Roxburgh
Elizabeth 20, Andrew 2, David 0
I haven't checked elsewhere (other sites)
Annie
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Perhaps this family is hard to track down as they are travellers, or gypsies. The last Queen of the Gypsies in Yetholm was Esther Faa BLYTHE
https://www.scottishgypsies.co.uk/esther.html
The occupations of 'mugger' (seller of earthen ware) and basket maker also point to them being gypsies.
Regards,
Lesley
Thanks for your information Lesley ..like Monica I thought mugger was crime related ::) till I Googled it
Rosie
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Thanks Monica I would say you have found John's Birth ;) I did come across the birth for David and was going to check further today ..So you have saved me some time I don't know how many census records I have looked at in 1841 different variations of the name ..I have checked out the death certificate for Mathew Blyth died 1888 Letholm his father was John Douglas ( Hawker ) mother Rachel Douglas ...Married to Elizabeth Hope ...I would say we are in the right track with John Blyth alias Hope ...been quite time consuming but very interesting thank you Monica for putting me on the right track
Rosie
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Rosie, Monica & Trish (good work folks)
I think the family are in Yetholm 1841? (SP)...
There are a squad of them, 3 families (25 people) all together.
Input only surname Blithe
BLITHE JOHN 24
811/ 3/ 15 Yetholm, Roxburgh
Elizabeth 20, Andrew 2, David 0
I haven't checked elsewhere (other sites)
Annie
you
Thanks Annie will check this out
Rosie
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[quote author=MonicaL link=topic=814232.msg6753169#msg6753169 date=1560547852
Andrew 1839 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JWWB-D91
Gro.gov record Andrew Blyth 1839 Glendale Union Northumberland mothers name Hope ;D
Rosie
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I think the family are in Yetholm 1841? (SP)...
There are a squad of them, 3 families (25 people) all together.
Input only surname Blithe
BLITHE JOHN 24
811/ 3/ 15 Yetholm, Roxburgh
Elizabeth 20, Andrew 2, David 0
I think this group is the one that Trish mentioned earlier
1851 Census
John Blythe, 35, Hawker Earthen Ware, born Yetholm, Roxburghshire
Elisabeth Blythe, 30, born Yorkshire
Andrew Blythe, 12, born Yetholm
David Blythe, 10, born Yetholm
JOHN Blythe, 8, born Yetholm
Stewart Blythe, 5, born Carham, Northumberland
William Blythe, 3, born Yetholm
Martha Blythe, 1 mth, born Yetholm
Given the names of children, likely all connected family.
Matthew and his family still awol in 1841...
Monica
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Yes Monica seen that family also ...think they will all be connected still no Mathew Blyth maybe hiding somewhere ;)...Just been ready up on the Gypsy families in Yetholm very interesting ...Just wish I could find a suitable death for John/Hope/Blyth
Rosie
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With Jane dying before him, he could have died in Scotland or England :-\ You may need to try to get clues from where his other children went on to live their lives to see if you can get some areas to search....or a day at an SP centre if you can to flick through all possibilites!
Monica
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Anne Gordon, in her book 'Hearts upon the Highway-Gypsies in South-east Scotland'(1980) writes that in 1847 'Matthew Blythe, John Rutherford [husband of Esther Faa Blythe] and Adam Cockburn, all from Kirk Yetholm, were found guilty of breaking into the barn of Mr Robertson, Hoselawbank, in the parish of Linton, and stealing wheat and barley, for which they were all sentenced to seven years transportation'. Anne Gordon further notes that Esther Blythe was sentenced to four months' imprisonment for assault in 1847, despite having been left alone with nine children when her husband was banished. Here is Esther in old age:
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Hi Monica just found the death for David hope 1936 in Eccles father John Hope and success the mother is mentioned as Mary Loftus ..So different mother from his marriage record so we can say for sure we have the right family ...Thanks to you ..I will plan a trip to Mitchell library once I have everything organised spent a fortune on SP so far :D
Rosie
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Thanks Sunlaws for the information and Picture I did see a record about transportation for Mathew which obviously did not happen ...Lots of records for Mathew going to jail 1850/1862/1864/1868 also 1871 census he is in jail in Woking Surrey England ::)
Rosie
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Did see this earlier, from https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx
JC26/1847 High Court of Justiciary processes
Related record AD14/47/497
Accused John Rutherford, Verdict: Guilty, Sentence: Transportation - 7 years
Adam Cockburn, Verdict: Guilty, Sentence: Transportation - 7 years
Matthew Blythe, Verdict: Guilty, Sentence: Transportation - 7 years, Petition: Remission of sentence passed at Edinburgh, 4 March 1850 (see JC8/57, f.144v).
Matthew looks to have just missed being transported.
Monica
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Rosie, have a look on the NAS catalogue for further details on other criminal proceedings. The crime that led to his sojourn in jail from 1868 for 8 years was the attempted rape of minor :-\ Search for this as Matthew Blyth, no 'e' at the end.
Monica
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Perhaps it was the nature of Matthew's 1868 crime that made John Hope want to disassociate himself from the Blythe surname?
Lesley
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That would be a good reason, Lesley. Could well explain the why.
Monica
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Article in the Jedburgh Gazette 24 Nov 1877
"William Blyth and Elizabeth Hope or Blyth, his mother, both residing at Kirk Yetholm were charged with committing an assault and breach of the peace on the 13th inst. within or near the dwelling house occupied by them, in so far as on that date they did attack Matthew Blyth, shoemaker..... Elizabeth Blyth ... told (the policeman) that the old man came late into the house and she hindered him from taking the boy's (William Blyth's) things out of the house.
The Sheriff - Who is the old man?
Elizabeth Blyth - He is my husband; you know him: he is the man that got eight years transportation.
The Sheriff -I knew it was a Matthew Blyth but not that Matthew Blyth.
The Procurator Fiscal accepted the plea of guilty to the charge of breach of the peace, and his Lordship, thereupon imposed a penalty of 10s or 6 days imprisonment".
There are quite a few articles in the Jedburgh Gazette and the Kelso Chronicle that come up from a search for Blyth or Blythe in Yetholm.
William
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William, daft I know, but your mention of the Kelso Chronicle reminded me of a possible death entry I saw earlier.
The final confirmation. John Hope died in 1922 in Kelso at the age of 91. No reference to his father, just his mother, Bessie Hope. Widower of Jane Bolton.
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With his likely birth in 1835, he lived to the grand age of 97...bettering the 91 reported!
The Inch (Inch Road) was the name/address used for the Kelso Poorhouse, www.workhouses.org.uk/Kelso/ As you know, at this time, an address was often used instead of a direct ref to the Poorhouse.
John, you would think at this age and widowed, was either living there or a patient at the Infirmary.
Monica
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Gosh I go away for a couple of days and what amazing progress has been made by you all :)
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Perhaps it was the nature of Matthew's 1868 crime that made John Hope want to disassociate himself from the Blythe surname?
Lesley
Yes I would say so Lesley :o
Rosie
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Thanks to everyone for all your help with this family it has been a fascinating story my son in law's granny would have be horrified ;D...Thank you Monica for finding the death for John as you said lived to a ripe old age (son in law's gran was just 6 months off 100 when she died always well dressed and her make up on ;D) ..So grateful to you all thanks again
Rosie