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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: RickyJack on Thursday 13 June 19 05:34 BST (UK)
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A general question to the list Please. My confusion is,all these different
place names
My elderly neighbour George Richards is looking for his GGrandfather Thomas
RICHARDS b. 1817 ??
Convict record says Thomas Richards late of the parish of Llanarmon Mynydd
Mawr [near Oswestry] in the County of Denbigh
was transported to Tasmania for nicking his 2nd cousins Edwards Watch, in
August 1840 therefore not in the 1841 census
Thomas had married 12 August 1834 to Elizabeth Jones Llanfechan,
Montgomeryshire, Wales
Baptism records for Charles Richards [1st born] say Father's residence
Maesmochnant ucha
Charles Richards b. March 1 1835 Llanrhaeadr-Ym-Mochnant FMPast
2nd born Eliza Richards 1838 Llanrhaeadr-Ym-Mochnant FMPast
Father's residence Argoed, Henfache
3rd born John Richards early 1841
1851 Census says
Market Street, Llanrhaiadr, Llanfyllin, Denbighshire & Montgomeryshire,
Wales
Elizabeth Richards as a baker
Eliza Richards
John Richards age 10
1/Thomas Richards said on the convict record his Father was a Thomas
Richards and
his siblings were William,Joseph and Richard, Kitty,Elizabeth and
Maryann...Llanarmon MM
2/ and 1861 census for Elizabeth Richards, Charles,Eliza and John
I am at a brick wall with Both these...
Where should I look ?? Tips and suggestions very welcome
Regards Rick in Tasmania
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Hi
I'm not quite sure what you want to find - baptisms, burials, etc. but Llanarmon Mynydd Mawr is adjacent to Llanrhaeadr ym Mochnant, Llansilin and Llanarmon Dyffryn Ceiriog. These parish straddle the Denbighshire/Shropshire border so Oswestry, Chirk and Llansantffraid Glyn Ceiriog might also be worth look at.
My ancestors came from that area and I've found that FindMyPast is the best source if you are away from the area. These records can also be checked via Family Search.
There is a possible baptism at Llanarmon MM but father is not Thomas:
20 Sept 1817, Thomas, son of Morris and Ann of Rhafod, LMM. Morris is shown as a farmer.
Gadget
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Here's a map of the area:
https://www.genuki.org.uk/node/3583/gazetteer
Check out Genuki Denbighshire: https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/indexpars
Gadget
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Newspaper report says he is of Llanrhaiadr yn Mochnant -Shrewsbury Chronicle 14 August 1840. He sold the watch at Llanymynech
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Newspaper report says he is of Llanrhaiadr yn Mochnant -Shrewsbury Chronicle 14 August 1840. He sold the watch at Llanymynech
Llanymynech is in Shropshire but very much 'Welsh' ;D
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SAL/Llanymynech
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Re his siblings:
So far I've found a Mary Richards, bpt 15 March 1809, Llanarmon MM to the same Morris and Ann
Still looking for other siblings' bpts.
He could have made up the info :-\
Gadget
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Thankyou Gadget and Thankyou Rosie99...The maps are brilliant, much clearer idea now and how close the distances actually are......Fancy finding where ol Thomas flogged the watch..a mistake that may have turned out for the best..for example big shortage of Ladies in Tasmania at that time,so just in August alone 1855 three ship loads of Ladies arrived from Glasgow [not convicts] A Rosan Currie arrived August married Thomas in December and had these kids
Had Issue
6.Elizabeth Robson Richards
6.John Richards
6.Mary Smith Richards
6.Thomas Richards
6.Jane Richards
6.Clara Richards
6. James Richards
6.Reuban Richards
6 William Richards
Always wondered if there was a clue in the naming of the Kids especially Reuban, as I understand you have a Ruban in Denbighshire....and quite right Gadget maybe ol Thomas didnt put correct information on the convict sheet about his parents and siblings, but just a thought why theyre not in any census maybe they moved around alot with work..Appreciate anything you can find around that area for that combination of Thomas's siblings....oh and would Kitty be short for Catherine??
Cheers and Thanks again Rick in Tasmania
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Hi again
Do you have any more info about Thomas's father? I've just found a baptism for a Thomas
Richards, bpt 28 July 1816 in Welshpool, Montgomeryshire. His parents are listed as
Thomas and Sarah. Thomas is listed as a shoemaker.
Welshpool is in the broad area. Given that he is recorded as of Llanarmon MM doesn't necessarily mean he was born or baptised there.
Gadget
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other bpt in Oswestry on 5 Oct 1817 (born 11 June). Parents were Thomas and Elizabeth.
I'm having to search over Denbighshire, Montgomeryshire and Shropshire parishes for
Thomas and his siblings, so it might take a while!
Gadget
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Sorry Gadget...we only have that info from the convict sheet...I find it very strange that both Rosan and Thomas never revealed their origin or parents...all we had was he had a Welsh accent and the convict record which read Denbigh nr Oswestry trial at Ruthin.
Correct maybe a broader search for the combination of siblings..
Im a beginner to rootchat so apologies if not quite doin it by the book
Kind Regards Rick
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Your doing fine, Rick :)
I've still not got anything definite for them. I'll have a look again tomorrow. Do you have Rosan's age/date of birth? She sounds possibly Irish.
Gadget
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Thanks...Yes we have all Rosan Family info [called herself Rosina Currie] here and correct their line does go back to Ireland...we are quite certain that Thomas and Rosina didnt know each other before Tasmania...Thomas arrived 1840 did 5 years as a farm labourer = 1845 then had 10 years to save to buy a farm before Rosina arrived...it was a good deal really for the Ladies...The St Andrews Presbyterian church Glasgow offered a free trip to Tassie as long as they signed on for three years as some sort of payed in house labour and or got married as the ratio was 7 men for every woman.
When the convicts stopped coming there was plenty of paid work,water and land they stayed where as the convicts were not paid therfore had no money to go back home and stayed.
Do Appreciate you spending some time on this..Thankyou...Rick
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Just querying the John b 1841. On the 1851 that you mention he is recorded as Job not John. It's clearly written as Job compared with the one below him on the page is a John Rowlands.
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Hi again....Thankyou..
There is an entry at a place called Cofen Cach...mentions
Elizabeth Richards age 25 Chare Woman
Charles age 6
Eliza age 3
John age 3 months
Im not 100% with this 1861 Census findings
village called Rhydless near Oswestry, Shropshire England
John Richards Servant Unmarried Male 21
born 1840 Agricultural Labourer
Llansilin,Denbighshire,
Would dearly love to find off spring from these two Richards males Charles and John and have DNA done to confirm....as Thomas fathered both families
Cheers Rick
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Cefn Coch is in Llanrhaeadr ym Mochnant parish, Montgameryshire. It's adjacent to LMM
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102186662#zoom=4&lat=5629&lon=1485&layers=BT
Rhydleos is part of the parish of Llansilin. Spelled as Rhyd-lios on this map:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102341249#zoom=5&lat=4020&lon=8406&layers=BT
If the descendant has a DNA test, there might be descendants of the other family who might match.
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Good Morning..well with your local knowledge What a gem you are....
Gosh with all these village names we are dealing with a very small area...makes me wonder why this combination is so hard to find... his siblings were William,Joseph and Richard, Kitty,Elizabeth and
Maryann...it maybe Mary and Ann =4 boys and 4 girls...as the names are not in alphabetical order just maybe they are in their age order...more than once Ive tried to calculate this for example if Thomas was born 1817 William 1818 and so on this would make Mary and Ann born around 1824.
I would think census of 1841 should have Dad Thomas ,wife and half the kids..somewhere in the England or Wales census.
cheers Rick
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Hi Rkick
I've found Thomas and Elizabeth's marriage entry. They married in Llansilin on the date you gave in your first post.
Both are given as 'of the parish'. This might just mean that they lived in Llansilin for 3 weeks before the marriage (3 x reading Banns). The witnesses were John Williams and James Jones. All but John Williams made their mark.
This does suggest that Thomas might well have moved around the area for labouring work and could have been born at many parishes in the wider area.
I have looked for the siblings but, again, there is nothing obvious.
Gadget
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Thanks again Gadget..I have a tree that Ive put together, am I allowed to put it on Rootchat??
This came about because I got George Richards [my elderly neighbour] to have a DNA mainly to prove he was Welsh, results came back a very sound 88.1% Welsh. why this was so important is that there were 4 Thomas Richards convicts in Tasmania of which 3 were English, and Geo said his Family always thought their ancestor had a Welsh accent..not much to go on....remember the joke..The police had their toilet pinched at the station..apparently they had nothing to go on...!!!Geo had over 2000 DNA matches on the first day..more than100 matches each for Richards,Hughes,Edwards and others plus over 300 or so for surname Jones.A 3rd cousin match came from a Mr Hughes just inside the Welsh Shropshire border,he went on to tell me that his Hughes has married Richards many times and even a Richards married a Richards, but could not find the combination of siblings for our Thomas Richards. so we now have the villages and the names and sadly just cant get them to fit..Thanks again Rick
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Just an observation:
The criminal records show his age as 26 in August 1840. this gives a birthdate of circa 1814.
What was the source of the 1817 birth that you quoted?
Gadget
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well done...I had to recheck my files typo apologies
Name: Thomas Richards
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1814
Date of Trial: 4 Aug 1840
Trial Year: 1840
Location of Trial: Denbighshire, Wales
Sentence: Transportation
I believe he got transported as he only got out of in June 1840 and back in August....I actually had a look to see if the reason the combination could not be found is that they may all have been in Jail There is a couple that have potential..Elizabeth gets a mention as well as
Name: Mary Ann Richards
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1819
Date of Trial: 30 Dec 1839
Trial Year: 1839
Location of Trial: Shropshire, England
Sentence: Acquittal
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Gadget. I wonder if you maybe able to help Please
I have all these place names...I dont seem to be able to get a map with all them on, I guess some villages dont exist today therefore not on modern maps and with boundary changes over the years. I was hoping to get one map with all the places our Richards have been
Hafod y Cwm, Llanarmon M M, Denbighshire, Wales
Llansilin
Oswestry
Llanrhaiadr Y M, Denbighshire, Wales
Cofen Cach.
Bala
Llanrhaeadr ym Mochnant
Appreciate anything you can find...Kind Regards Rick
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They are a bit geographically spread so it's unlikely but you could use:
Streetmap:
https://tinyurl.com/y2gxbjoh
nls- maps:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74466916
and pan around.
Gadget
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You have saved the day Gadget...the maps worked well..
What I wanted to do was print out the map as we are bouncing all around that particular area of Denbighshire....Our Thomas Richards was said to have come from Llanarmon M M ..just recently we have had another match...a descendant of Richard Richards LMM..problem is he was born 1800...we understand our Thomas was born 1814..apparently there was only about 40 people in this area
Richard Edwards married Hughes
Hugh Richards married Hughes
I I
Morris Richards married Ann Richards -------
I
Edward Richards married Ann Jones ---........................................
Edward Richards married Davies
I
Thomas Hughes married Annie Richards
I
Richard Albert Hughes married Jones
I
Our DNA match
Morris Richards married Ann Richards ------- Morris Richards b.1771 Llanarmon M.M d. 1831 Hafod
married 1 1798
Anne Richards 1776-1857 b.Llangadwaladr,Llansilin Denbigh .. had 13 kids
marriage 2 for Ann was Richard Richards
I feel this is our problem...Morris and Ann Richards from two different Richards Lines then Ann second Marriage was to another Richard Richards
Our new DNA match is also to Morris and Ann Richards
Often ask myself..what chance do we have on the other side of the Globe ever to understanding this
cheers Rick
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I know the problem well - I have Jones, Roberts, Hughes, Evans, Williams, Parry, Griffiths, etc., and Richards. Then we have the aps ;D
What is the amount of DNA that you share with your match? Also, have you checked the matches that you have in common (shared matches)?
Gadget
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To me when it says “late of the parish of Llanarmon” that means that was where he was living rather than his birthplace.
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Agree - see my reply #16 and #7
Hi Rkick
I've found Thomas and Elizabeth's marriage entry. They married in Llansilin on the date you gave in your first post.
Both are given as 'of the parish'. This might just mean that they lived in Llansilin for 3 weeks before the marriage (3 x reading Banns). The witnesses were John Williams and James Jones. All but John Williams made their mark.
This does suggest that Thomas might well have moved around the area for labouring work and could have been born at many parishes in the wider area.
I have looked for the siblings but, again, there is nothing obvious.
Gadget
Rick - have you checked the shared DNA matches, as I mentioned in my previous reply?
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Good Morning 5am..Thanks for your replies
One DNA match to George Richards was a 3-5 cousin match 1 shared segment and 9.5 cM with a paternal line to Morris and Ann Richards
another is Hughes a 2nd cousin match with 54 shared segments also with strong connections to Morris and Ann....this is our strongest match out of Australia...just for the exercise I put in Richards as matches...there are 81Richards 65 Edwards 51 Hughes and Jones to my surprise 161 people that match Geo have Jones as ancestral surnames ...appreciate the fact that they are all big names in Wales....however if you look at it from my side started off with the name Thomas Richards from convict sheet LMM near Oswestry familynames and now from 7 billion people living in this world Ive got two DNA definate's from LMM and a few others lived quite close by....I think you might be quite right young Gadget..possible that one/each kid was born in a different town starting from 1814 and had left the nest by the 1841 census ...cheers Rick
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One DNA match to George Richards was a 3-5 cousin match 1 shared segment and 9.5 cM with a paternal line to Morris and Ann Richards
9.5cms is pretty distant. Check on this:
https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4
It might be worth asking about your matches on our DNA board:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/ancestral-family-tree-dna-testing/
Very old Gadget
;D
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Hi Gadget,
Thanks for the links..sad I dont have anymore questions for you with regards to our Thomas Richards and thankyou for at least having a look....I shall leave you with this genealogy poem
The kin of old,