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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: CelticMom on Tuesday 18 June 19 14:43 BST (UK)
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So I have John marrying Rachel in 1791 in Kelso, she was born 1765 in Kelso to William Johnston and Rachel Currie.
John Rutherford I know was a tailor.
But I can't locate a baptism or death for him. Death might give me a clue to his birth year.
The children of John and Rachel I have so far are:
John Rutherford - 1794 -?
William Rutherford (my 4xGreat Grandfather) - 1797–1858
James Rutherford - 1798–1866
Rachel Rutherford - 1803–?
Richard Rutherford - 1804–1881
Agnes Rutherford - 1811–?
I did find this about them, but not sure if that means he died 1834 or before then. I am presuming he died in Kelso.
(hopefully this link works)
https://books.google.ca/books?id=DV8SAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=john+rutherford+kelso+tailor&source=bl&ots=uJkxrDbDZF&sig=ACfU3U2BpHtH69B4ZzngQ9EuHToSj3srmg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjI3IT3k_PiAhXEmOAKHVdZClkQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=john%20rutherford%20kelso%20tailor&f=false
any help would be appreciated
thank you
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Have you looked at this possible death?
RUTHERFORD JOHN 64
20/01/1834
799/50 466 Melrose (Roxburgh)
Date of Death 20 Jan
Date of Disposition 23 Jan
Possible Will?
Rutherford John
24/6/1834
esq., of Edgarston
Jedburgh Sheriff Court
SC62/44/4
Could he have been visiting when he died :-\
Annie
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I think the death mentioned in the message above is that of John Rutherfurd of Edgerston 1748-1834. The Rutherfurds had had the Edgerston estate from the fifteenth century until it was sold in 1915, so unlikely to be your Kelso tailor.
Regards,
Lesley
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I think the death mentioned in the message above is that of John Rutherfurd of Edgerston 1748-1834. The Rutherfurds had had the Edgerston estate from the fifteenth century until it was sold in 1915, so unlikely to be your Kelso tailor.
Regards,
Lesley
Yeah, I am pretty sure the death (thank Rosinish for posting details) is not my John Rutherford the tailor. I can't confirm whether than mention of him in 1834 is from when he died or later on after his death, it's not very clear, so could have died before 1834 I suppose.
I think it is likely he will of died in Kelso. Possible parents may be John Rutherford and Margaret Dryden, but not been able to confirm as yet, going by Scottish naming patterns his father would likely be John, but of course, that is not definite.
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There is a stone in Kelso (Abbey) churchyard, 'In memory of John Rutherford merchant tailor in Kelso who died 12.9.1823 aged 35 also one of his children who died in infancy', but that can't be him (nor his eldest son) unless there has been a mis-reading of his age.(His wife would have been 58 at that date.)
The Kelso Chronicle of 8th February 1850 has a death 'At Brighton on the 5th ultimo John Rutherford, tailor, late convenor of the Incorporated Trades of Kelso', but that can't be him either as your John was dead by 1834.
Regards,
Lesley
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Some good finds Lesley!
I wonder if the 1st death could be John's father & 2nd his son?
Annie
Add...The interesting thing is 'Tailor' for both.
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There is a stone in Kelso (Abbey) churchyard, 'In memory of John Rutherford merchant tailor in Kelso who died 12.9.1823 aged 35 also one of his children who died in infancy', but that can't be him (nor his eldest son) unless there has been a mis-reading of his age.(His wife would have been 58 at that date.)
The Kelso Chronicle of 8th February 1850 has a death 'At Brighton on the 5th ultimo John Rutherford, tailor, late convenor of the Incorporated Trades of Kelso', but that can't be him either as your John was dead by 1834.
Regards,
Lesley
Thanks for that. I wonder if John Rutherford who died aged 35 may be the son of a brother? It does seem the occupation of a tailor carried all through the Kelso Rutherford families.
For the other John - By Brighton I presume we mean the one in England? unless there is one in Scotland I am not aware of? Might be worth me tracing that one into the UK and see if I can tie in anywhere.
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Some good finds Lesley!
I wonder if the 1st death could be John's father & 2nd his son?
Annie
Add...The interesting thing is 'Tailor' for both.
definitely!! I think these are all related it's just tieing mine to the correct line going back. Going by Scottish naming patterns there are only two couples I can see that could be his parents. John Rutherford and Margaret Dryden and then John Rutherford and Margaret Cox. My line did seem to use the naming pattern.
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There is a stone in Kelso (Abbey) churchyard, 'In memory of John Rutherford merchant tailor in Kelso who died 12.9.1823 aged 35 also one of his children who died in infancy', but that can't be him (nor his eldest son) unless there has been a mis-reading of his age.(His wife would have been 58 at that date.)
The Kelso Chronicle of 8th February 1850 has a death 'At Brighton on the 5th ultimo John Rutherford, tailor, late convenor of the Incorporated Trades of Kelso', but that can't be him either as your John was dead by 1834.
Regards,
Lesley
Any year for the death of the infant? That might give a clue to if the age is wrong.
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No, that is the whole inscription- no other names at all.
Lesley
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No, that is the whole inscription- no other names at all.
Lesley
thanks, I oddly can find the 1850 death.
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"Going by Scottish naming patterns there are only two couples I can see that could be his parents. John Rutherford and Margaret Dryden and then John Rutherford and Margaret Cox. My line did seem to use the naming pattern"
I find it rather strange there's not an elder daughter named Margaret & if she died in infancy a future dau named Margaret as this was typical...naming a later child the same & almost certainly if it was a parents name?
From your list there's room for more but can you tell us the names of Sponsors to the children you have as this may give a clue to other relations?
This does not mean there were others but possibly!...
Room for 1 here
John Rutherford - 1794 -?
Room for 1 here
William Rutherford (my 4xGreat Grandfather) - 1797–1858
James Rutherford - 1798–1866
Room for a couple here
Rachel Rutherford - 1803–?
Richard Rutherford - 1804–1881
Room for a few here
Agnes Rutherford - 1811–?
Annie
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There are 3 marriages of 'a' Margaret Rutherford in Kelso 1813 - 1838 which could fit a possible dau of John & Rachel...
It would be worth tracing them through census' to see what they name their children then into statutory deaths.
Freecen.org.uk
Annie
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"Going by Scottish naming patterns there are only two couples I can see that could be his parents. John Rutherford and Margaret Dryden and then John Rutherford and Margaret Cox. My line did seem to use the naming pattern"
I find it rather strange there's not an elder daughter named Margaret & if she died in infancy a future dau named Margaret as this was typical...naming a later child the same & almost certainly if it was a parents name?
From your list there's room for more but can you tell us the names of Sponsors to the children you have as this may give a clue to other relations?
This does not mean there were others but possibly!...
Room for 1 here
John Rutherford - 1794 -?
Room for 1 here
William Rutherford (my 4xGreat Grandfather) - 1797–1858
James Rutherford - 1798–1866
Room for a couple here
Rachel Rutherford - 1803–?
Richard Rutherford - 1804–1881
Room for a few here
Agnes Rutherford - 1811–?
Annie
Yes this is going by the assumption that there are more children in between. The records for Kelso seem to be sparse from what I can see, or possibly badly transcribed. Of course I am just looking at possible couples that could be his parents too. It’s not definite his parents are John or Margaret. But going by the possible oldest son John, they were the only couples in the Kelso area I could find with a John.
I don’t have all the images for the baptisms of the children I do know yet, just a couple. I’m visiting Scotland next month from Canada so hope to go to the Scotland’s People office in Edinburgh.
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There are 3 marriages of 'a' Margaret Rutherford in Kelso 1813 - 1838 which could fit a possible dau of John & Rachel...
It would be worth tracing them through census' to see what they name their children then into statutory deaths.
Freecen.org.uk
Annie
Thanks I’ll definitely look into those. 3 of the children (so far) of my John ended up in England.
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I think the first digit of the age on the stone could easily be a '5', giving a birth year of c1768.
Lesley
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I think the first digit of the age on the stone could easily be a '5', giving a birth year of c1768.
Lesley
Oooh thanks for this. I agree it does look like there could be a discrepancy in that first digit. I couldn’t find this in the OPR on Scotland’s people
Can I ask where the image was from? Is this from a website? It would be most useful to know which website if so.
I really appreciated everyone’s help.
I looked at Margaret Rutherford’s but nothing I could really tie in to mine as chicken of John and Rachel.
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No, it's not from a website- I took the photo on my way to buy a loaf this morning!
Lesley
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I took the photo on my way to buy a loaf this morning!
Lesley
What a lovely kind gesture ;)
Annie
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Possible deaths of 'missing' children (going by gaps)?...
RUTHERFORD ----- 0 (no name)
RUTHERFORD (father/parents not named)
M
03/02/1802
793/90 40 Kelso
RUTHERFORD ALEXR 8
JNO RUTHERFORD
02/01/1803
793/90 44 Kelso
RUTHERFORD AGNES 0
JNO RUTHERFORD
23/04/1804
793/90 52 Kelso
I notice a later Agnes but this is same yr as Richard, was he a twin or could this chid have been born 1803?
RUTHERFORD ----- 0
JNO RUTHERFORD
U (sex unknown) ???
28/06/1806
793/90 62 Kelso
I've noticed this a lot with OPR deaths, not sure if the missing info. is illegible or if the entries just say something like 'the death of a child' or similar, perhaps someone can tell us?
Possibly the only help would be the occupation of Jno/John but all the above are speculation.
Annie
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No, it's not from a website- I took the photo on my way to buy a loaf this morning!
Lesley
Wow, that is so kind of you - thank you so much. I really appreciate you doing that. I am hugely touched by this.
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Possible deaths of 'missing' children (going by gaps)?...
RUTHERFORD ----- 0 (no name)
RUTHERFORD (father/parents not named)
M
03/02/1802
793/90 40 Kelso
RUTHERFORD ALEXR 8
JNO RUTHERFORD
02/01/1803
793/90 44 Kelso
RUTHERFORD AGNES 0
JNO RUTHERFORD
23/04/1804
793/90 52 Kelso
I notice a later Agnes but this is same yr as Richard, was he a twin or could this chid have been born 1803?
RUTHERFORD ----- 0
JNO RUTHERFORD
U (sex unknown) ???
28/06/1806
793/90 62 Kelso
I've noticed this a lot with OPR deaths, not sure if the missing info. is illegible or if the entries just say something like 'the death of a child' or similar, perhaps someone can tell us?
Possibly the only help would be the occupation of Jno/John but all the above are speculation.
Annie
Thank you for those, I suppose it could be a twin of Richard or year before, I haven't found another Agnes baptism, but then there does appear to be gaps missing. It's quite likely that if Agnes died they named another later daughter in her memory.
I know I have a really hard time reading some OPR's - some could have damage as well I suppose so only part recognizable.
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I would just like to comment on how amazing you both have been in trying to help me. Thank you. :)
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RUTHERFORD ----- 0
JNO RUTHERFORD
U (sex unknown) ???
28/06/1806
793/90 62 Kelso
I've noticed this a lot with OPR deaths, not sure if the missing info. is illegible or if the entries just say something like 'the death of a child' or similar, perhaps someone can tell us?
It's quite common for the OPR burial records, and the Mortcloth records, to say something like 'John Smith's child was buried' with no indication of the name, age or sex of the child.
What I have not managed to deduce is how old a child has to be before its personal information does get included. No doubt it varied from parish to parish.
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"It's quite common for the OPR burial records, and the Mortcloth records, to say something like 'John Smith's child was buried' with no indication of the name, age or sex of the child."
Thanks Forfarian...
I had a look on SP & came to the conclusion there were far too many for them all to have been illegible but it's good to have info. from someone who's seen a doc. as I haven't (not had a need) yet.
Annie
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Reply #15
The MI has 'one of his children who died in infancy'...I wonder if there's another plot with others?
Annie
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I can't find that 1823 OPR death/burial for John Rutherford on Scotlands people. Oddly I can't find an OPR birth/baptism either in c1826 for Helen Rutherford daughter of William Rutherford and Janet (Jessie) Douglas. Which makes me wonder if there is a large second in the 1820 period missing or damaged for the Kelso area or are they not complete on Scotlands People?
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All the info. on SP is what has been collected i.e. many may have been damaged/not survived/never recorded which is a problem in any/all areas pre 1855.
Annie
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All the info. on SP is what has been collected i.e. many may have been damaged/not survived/never recorded which is a problem in any/all areas pre 1855.
Annie
I thought as much, thanks. I suppose some areas you are lucky and some not so much. I found one baptism entry in Perthshire for another ancestor and it named all the children on one page which was really useful for that branch.
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Some Clerics were great, others not so...
I have baptisms (Highland, Scotland) which give good ancestry i.e. 2 or more further generations!
Annie
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Have a look at this baptism...
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=550738.150
Reply #152
Worth more than the cost of the doc! ;D
This was South Uist, Inverness-shire where Gaelic was their 1st language.
It's so annoying when baptisms don't name the mother or only her forename.
Annie
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Have a look at this baptism...
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=550738.150
Reply #152
Worth more than the cost of the doc! ;D
This was South Uist, Inverness-shire where Gaelic was their 1st language.
It's so annoying when baptisms don't name the mother or only her forename.
Annie
That is def worth more than the cost of the doc
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I think the first digit of the age on the stone could easily be a '5', giving a birth year of c1768.
Lesley
I wonder if the "one of the children" might be John Rutherford born 1794. I can't trace him in any census or a marriage.
There is one John Rutherford marrying an Elizabeth Scott that I thought was him, but have ruled that one out now as he was the son of Archibald Rutherford.
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I thought 'one of his children who died in infancy' implied that all the others lived- different way of interpreting it.
Borders Family History Society says the records available for Kelso parish are
Births: 1598 to 1854.
Marriages: 1597 to 1854.
Deaths: 1614 to 1669, 1839 to 1854.
so deaths are mostly unrecorded (in common with many other Scottish parishes). I would therefore have expected that the John Rutherford, tailor, who died in 1850 would be included if he hadn't died (on holiday?) in Brighton, but he doesn't seem to be in freeBMD either. I had my eye on him as being the John born 1794.
Lesley
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I thought 'one of his children who died in infancy' implied that all the others lived- different way of interpreting it.
Borders Family History Society says the records available for Kelso parish are
Births: 1598 to 1854.
Marriages: 1597 to 1854.
Deaths: 1614 to 1669, 1839 to 1854.
so deaths are mostly unrecorded (in common with many other Scottish parishes). I would therefore have expected that the John Rutherford, tailor, who died in 1850 would be included if he hadn't died (on holiday?) in Brighton, but he doesn't seem to be in freeBMD either. I had my eye on him as being the John born 1794.
Lesley
I do know all the other children I have found baptisms of the children of John and Rachel survived, so if there are no missing children between the years. This would mean John Rutherford born 1794 was the only child that died. But of course, is still not definite that grave John wife of Rachel.
The record years quoted above, does that mean exist full stop or just online at present?
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It means all the records that are in existence.
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It means all the records that are in existence.
AHH, that explains all the missing records then. Thank you
The mention of the John Rutherford that died in Brighton. Where was that sourced? As I am struggling to find it. EDIT: Just seen you said it was the Kelso Chronicle. So ignore me lol. I need to retire for the night.
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It means all the records that are in existence.
In existence in the OPRs (Old Parish Registers), yes, but the way Church of Scotland records were split into OPRs (for General Register Office for Scotland / New Register House) and kirk session material (for the then Scottish Record Office) was messy.
Often you will get extra burials recorded in kirk session records, which usually ended up in the Scottish Record Office. These are unindexed, and very patchy, but there are some. The details are often sparse, but you can find payments for burials in there, even when there are no deaths in the OPRs at the same time.
Kirk session records can be searched online at a limited number of archives in Scotland. Hopefully the long awaited Internet version for the public launches soon.
Again I don’t want to get anyone’s hopes up. But there may be some more records.
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As Viv said, kirk session minutes often reveal events not in the actual registers, which indeed was what I meant. Kelso kirk session records have been extensively digitised, and are available to view in Edinburgh
https://bit.ly/2L7YLOw
but are (as far as I know) are not indexed. Even though a death was not recorded in the registers, for instance, the amount of money the deceased person's family paid for the use of the mortcloth to cover the coffin was certainly worth recording in the session's books!
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That’s really interesting, thank you both for that insight.
When I first started my research back in 2003, there wasn’t much online at all. The majority of my roots are from Ireland. So I was stuck behind a brick wall for years. Although I struck gold when I emailed one of the churches and had an amazing office person there help me out with tracing one branch back quite a few generations. Plus there are amazing helpers on this forum like yourselves, That have local knowledge. I find rootschat amazing for that.
Now of course the online resources are amazing.
It’s not quite the same as accessing records in person, as there is something great about seeing official documents in person. But it means many from overseas can access records to where their ancestor originally came from.