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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: goatfish77 on Sunday 23 June 19 22:33 BST (UK)
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The relative who gave me this photo has dementia and can’t remember who it is. Can anyone confirm it is the Hussars and determine era, rank and regiment from the picture so that I can help her work it out??
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Royal Horse Artillery maybe? site for Hussars,
www.hussards-photos.com/UK_home.htm
Skoosh.
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Almost certainly Hussars, judging by the 6 lines of braid.
As to which - there are no collar-dogs for identification ;D
Collar-dogs started to be used in the early 1900's.
Not the 11th - they had red trousers.
The plume on the busby looks to be a single colour (white?), so not 4th, 10th, 15th, or 18th.
21st had different headgear.
That leaves us with 3rd, 7th, 8th, 13th, 14th, 19th or 20th ::)
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Do you share the same County with your relation and going back to the 1880's? This super photograph may be Yeomanry Hussars.
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My relative is from Oxfordshire. A Quick look at the Oxfordshire Yeomanry uniform suggests they had a purple plume so I don’t think it’s them. I also wondered what the four chevrons possibly with an emblem above them mean on his right arm? we can’t work out if it is her grandfather born 1862 died 1912 or her great grandfather born 1829 died 1910 .
Does the shorthaired Busby suggest a certain era? I also can’t see any pictures with the plume exactly like that on the Hussars webpage mentioned by a previous poster they are all much longer, but there are some similar on Uniformology.com from 1880-1902. Or is the length of the plume to do with rank?? So many questions!
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Hopefully, someone with knowledge will see your Post. Any chance of the back of the photo for dating purposes. He was a senor NCO, four chevrons and something above.
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Hopefully, someone with knowledge will see your Post. Any chance of the back of the photo for dating purposes. He was a senor NCO, four chevrons and something above.
The back had a copyright stamp from a newspaper (I forget which one now, should have taken a photo).
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Hopefully, someone with knowledge will see your Post. Any chance of the back of the photo for dating purposes. He was a senor NCO, four chevrons and something above.
Specialist ranks had 4 chevrons.
E.G. Regimental Quartermaster, with an 8 petal flower above.
See: http://www.uniformology.com/HUSSARS-08.html
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Definitely the grandfather. If not Regular, could be Royal Bucks Hussars c1892/3 (uniform changes). Unfortunately, the busby bag is not visible. He has the white plume. There's something suspicious. On the face of it, blue collar and cuffs. However, see his left arm cuff, I don't think it's photo fading. RBH had uniforms of blue mixed with 'invisible green' only visible in 'a certain light'. He should have a red collar. All NCO chevrons in RBH Hussars were surmounted by a crown. No doubt K Garrard can confirm or offer another solution.
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Definitely the grandfather. If not Regular, could be Royal Bucks Hussars c1892/3 (uniform changes). Unfortunately, the busby bag is not visible. He has the white plume. There's something suspicious. On the face of it, blue collar and cuffs. However, see his left arm cuff, I don't think it's photo fading. RBH had uniforms of blue mixed with 'invisible green' only visible in 'a certain light'. He should have a red collar. All NCO chevrons in RBH Hussars were surmounted by a crown. No doubt K Garrard can confirm or offer another solution.
I did wonder if there might be red in the uniform which is not distinguishable. I was puzzled as to the strip down his trousers which appears to be a slightly different colour but definitely not yellow or white as in all the uniforms on Uniformology. Any thoughts on that?
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Yes, I noticed that and could be red. Bucks is not a million miles from Oxfordshire. Anyway, one of Jane Austen's (Hampshire) brothers was an officer in the Oxfordshire Militia.
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Pictures from http://www.royalbuckshussars.org/Royal%20bucks%20Hussars/Scrapbook/index.html show uniforms c1909/1910 as having more rows of braid?! (3rd row, pictures 3 and 4)
1865 picture shows a green jacket, with only 5 rows of braid (6th row, picture 7)
I am still leaning towards a Regular Hussar ;D
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Yes, but uniforms had changed by 1900 to 1914. I will do a more thorough search of Regular Hussar regiments.
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Would it sway the debate in favour of Yeomanry if I said that my relatives Grandfather was a shown as a Farmers brother on the 1881 and Farmers son in 1891 then a Farmer in 1901 census returns? He was also married in Oxford in 1895. Children born between 1897-1902. I can’t find any mention of military service (yet).
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Well, I also wrote to the owner of uniformology.com who came back with a very detailed response which suggests it is the Denbighshire Yeomanry. He included the fact that his four bar chevron on his right sleeve was unique to the Denbighshire Hussars as they still used the old system of ranks right up to 1902. He would have been a Troop Sergeant-Major and there is just enough to show a Prince of Wales feathers above the chevrons.
I think I am convinced as it explains the stripe on the trousers and the cuff colouration mentioned earlier too.
See what you think...
http://www.uniformology.com/YEOMANRY-02.html
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That's good enough for me ;D
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Just picked up your Posts. Yes, it would point to Yeomanry. You've seen the Website. Did you tell him your relation was from Oxford. What on earth would an Oxfordshire farmer do being in the Denbighshire Hussars (North wales)? Does not compute. RBH was unlikely for same reason.
The whole point of the Yeomanry was they were manned by county men, officers from county gentry, NCO's and men from farm people or with horse ability. Might go out of County operationly though.
I'd query that with him.
K Garrard, you thought he was a Regular ;D
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I urge you to check with your source. I have found a photo of Winston Churchill in uniform of QOOH (Pinterest), 1900's by the look of it. OK, officers uniform but looks good. White plume. Churchill was long associated with the Regiment. His regular commission was with the 4th Hussars. Two Dukes of Marlborough were colonels of QOOH at some time. Your man must have been OH.
https://www.google.com/search?q=queen%27s+own+oxfordshire+hussars+photographs+1890+to+1900&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfmeCUo4fjAhWEXRUIHaS4A4wQ_AUIECgB&biw=800&bih=475#imgrc=2CT8BnxPsm3rAM:.
Have to scroll down to WC Oxford Hussar.
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In my original query to the uniformology owner I stated that my relative was from Oxfordshire. I have gone back with some queries about the occupation on the census and the dates so I will see what he comes back with. I also think Denbighshire is too far away to be feasible but it is the only uniform I have seen which is a close match and I could not find the four chevrons pointing down on any other uniforms that I have looked on. If you look at the Oxfordshire Yeomanry uniform at the lower feather it’s actually a reddish purple and you can see a photo of Winston Churchill‘s actual Oxfordshire yeomanry uniform in colour as it is on display at Blenheim Palace and the lower feather is clearly not white.
It may just be that my ancestor had hold of the wrong hat! It’s a shame he wasn’t facing the other way in the picture or have his Sabretache on show. I may go back and search the attic for other photos of him another day.
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Yes, I initially went by uniforms from Site and picked RBH as nearest (white plumes). Bucks was/is two counties away from Oxfordshire, so unlikely. As your man was apparently Oxford farmer and it's a 24/7 occupation must have been QOOH despite uniform anomalies. What did you think of Winston Churchill photo? Your man must have known him. WC's netherwear are dark blue like rest of the uniform, see contrast with top of Hessian boots with gold lace.
I wouldn't be too hung up about four chevrons, they were not uncommon in cavalry or infantry, points up or down since 1800ish. Sergeant major or equivalent.
Also, have you thought about Oxford newspapers for an obituary, bound to have noted any military history.
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Yes, I initially went by uniforms from Site and picked RBH as nearest (white plumes). Bucks was/is two counties away from Oxfordshire, so unlikely. As your man was apparently Oxford farmer and it's a 24/7 occupation must have been QOOH despite uniform anomalies. What did you think of Winston Churchill photo? Your man must have known him. WC's netherwear are dark blue like rest of the uniform, see contrast with top of Hessian boots with gold lace.
I wouldn't be too hung up about four chevrons, they were not uncommon in cavalry or infantry, points up or down since 1800ish. Sergeant major or equivalent.
Also, have you thought about Oxford newspapers for an obituary, bound to have noted any military history.
That’s a good idea, thanks. Lots more research to do on this one!
Is the photo of WC you mention the one where he is seated?
The QOOH uniform is a good match and identical to the Denbighshire one apart from the plumes.
(Scroll down to second section)
http://www.uniformology.com/YEOMANRY-07.html
http://www.uniformology.com/YEOMANRY-02.html
This relative probably knew Winston but his Grandaughter who gave me the photo also nursed him during her career!
The photo is of George Albert Chaundy by the way just in case anyone comes across this thread and wants to know!
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Yes, seated. To the right in 4th Hussars uniform and one more, son Randolf Churchill also in 4th Hussars uniform.
Found this:-
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28721/page/3704/data.pdf.
Just to clarify, google Oxford Hussars, Images, line 5 down, 3rd on right WC Oxf Huss. click on.
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[quote author=Regorian link=topic=814764.msg6760611#msg6760611 date=1561647144
Found this:-
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28721/page/3704/data.pdf.
That’s him! ;D
As for WCs QOOH uniform I think the trousers are red actually which goes to show that red is almost indistinguishable from blue in black and white photos!
See this photo of the real thing lower down the page on this blog:
https://andyandjudi.com/2017/07/29/blenheim-palace-birthplace-of-sir-winston-churchill/
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The BP photograph was full dress, red collar, lace design on cuffs and red pantaloons quite different 'order' of dress to the all blue pic. I drew attention to. Anyway, both QOOH and your original photo. same Regiment.
Are you happy with that? I tried to find his obituary but couldn't find it, which undoubtedly would have mentioned his yeomanry service.