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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: jamesgeorge on Monday 24 June 19 17:03 BST (UK)

Title: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 24 June 19 17:03 BST (UK)
Hi Anyone,

I'm still looking for my Maternal GM birth record (after 2 years! of searching)
Name Alice Winifred Hodson _ father George Hodson. Married George Jacklin in 1915.
I have her Death Cert, Marriage Cert, but cannot get back to her Birth Cert. No idea where she was born,
1939 Record shows her DoB as 15 Sep 1896
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: Pheno on Monday 24 June 19 17:08 BST (UK)
From the GRO site:

Hodson, Alice Winifred  Jun 1895  Chorlton Vol 08C Pg 855 mmn Bennion.

This should enable you to obtain a certificate for this person - assuming she is yours.  I know doesn't match with dob from 1939 record but I have found these ae often out by a year or so.

Pheno
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 24 June 19 17:24 BST (UK)
Ho Phenobarbitals,

I've got this one, but Name of father on this record is Thomas not George (from Marriage Cert in 1915). Get what you say about the birth date on 1939 record but also Fathers name wrong?
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 24 June 19 17:29 BST (UK)
There' no middle name on the 1915 marriage registration (at least as indexed on FreeBMD):

Alice Hodson married George Jacklin, Dec qtr 1915 Tendring

What age was given for her on the marriage?
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: Pheno on Monday 24 June 19 17:31 BST (UK)
There is a marriage on Free BMD in Chorlton in Mar qtr 1888 of a Thomas Hodson to a Mary Bennion which is probably the couple who had Alice Winifred.

Had Alice's father died by the time she married - she may not have remembered his name or maybe whoever took the details got her father's name mixed up and wrote the same first name as her husband.

Have you found any siblings whom you can follow to see what name they supply for their father?

Pheno
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 24 June 19 17:35 BST (UK)
No middle name on what I presume is her 1942 death reg in Boston Lincs.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 24 June 19 17:39 BST (UK)
Perhaps she is the Alice Hodson b "17 Sep 1896" who was admitted to George Yard School, Tower Hamlets on 29 August 1904.

Father: George Hodson, of 94 ?? St.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 24 June 19 17:44 BST (UK)
Perhaps she is the Alice Hodson b "17 Sep 1896" who was admitted to George Yard School, Tower Hamlets on 29 August 1904.

Father: George Hodson, of 94 ?? St.

Same person or not?

Admitted to workhouse in Stepney/Tower Hamlets, 21 Apr 1910

Alice Winifred Hodson, 13y 7mo
Catherine Hodson, 5y 8mo

of 8 Paternoster Row.

Parents: Arthur George (in infirmary) and Elizabeth, of 8 Paternoster Row or 40/60? Crispin St.

On 22 April 1910 Catherine Hodson, 5, dau of George and Elizabeth, Roman Catholic, was admitted to the infirmary suffering from bronchitis.  Discharged with mother on 26 April.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 24 June 19 18:19 BST (UK)
Hi All,

It is the Alice Jacklin - Died in Boston, Lincs 1942. I’ve not found any siblings as I can’t find her Father (George from MC in 1915 or mother from any BC). I’ve followed the George Yard school link - no joy! There is actually a school in London for the exact date and father George, but nothing after that.
If the fathers name was an error on MC and birth date wrong on 1939 record I guess it could be be Thomas. I will try the Bennion link again, but I think I tracked this a couple of years ago to no avail.
According to MC George Hodson was deceased in 1915 and occupation was ‘Market-Porter’(which is very generic)
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: medpat on Monday 24 June 19 18:21 BST (UK)
1901

George Hodson      27 born Aldgate and down as general labourer
Elizabeth Hodson  27  born Aldgate
Alice Hodson       4   born St George's

living at what appears to be Winterton St St Georges in the East
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 24 June 19 18:31 BST (UK)
I got her middle name from her first childs BC (another George! born in Harwich 10 Nov 1918) This was my mothers Eldest brother. Four children all together. George, Earnest, Alice and Olive 
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 24 June 19 18:39 BST (UK)
Arthur George Hodson born 16 April 1873 was baptised 2 Jan 1876 at St Botolph, Aldgate.

Parents: George (soldier) and Alice, of 12 Little Somerset St.

Sister baptised at the same time: Caroline, born 4 April 1875.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: medpat on Monday 24 June 19 18:40 BST (UK)
Can't find a birth cert. for Catherine either.

I do wonder if George and Elizabeth were married.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 24 June 19 18:42 BST (UK)
Arthur George Hodson born 16 April 1873 was baptised 2 Jan 1876 at St Botolph, Aldgate.

Parents: George (soldier) and Alice, of 12 Little Somerset St.

Sister baptised at the same time: Caroline, born 4 April 1875.

Possibly a prior baptism for the same child (shouldn't happen twice...):

Arthur George Hodson, baptised 2 Nov 1873 at St Mary, Putney,

Parents: George (of the Grenadier Guards) and Alice, of Putney.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 24 June 19 18:50 BST (UK)
I think Catherine also settled in Lincolnshire - using the name Catherine K Quinton in Spalding, but dying as Katherine Kate Hodson in Boston in 1995.

Birthdate: 5 August 1905.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 24 June 19 21:14 BST (UK)
George Hodson was a 34yr old porter of fruit when he was admitted to Stepney workhouse infirmary on 9 June 1907, suffering from mental illness.  He was discharged home on 14 June 1907.

He was readmitted aged 37 (labourer) on 20 April 1910, suffering from rheumatism.  Home address was 8 Paternoster Row.  Wife Elizabeth, and 2 children.  He was discharged on 26 April 1910.

George’s religion was recorded as C of E (in contrast to Roman Catholic recorded for Catherine).
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Friday 28 June 19 18:27 BST (UK)
Thanks for all the replies.

I've followed all the suggestions - no luck so far!

Alice Winfred Hodson (or not!) continues to be an enigma.

Any other suggestions welcomed
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Friday 28 June 19 21:48 BST (UK)
I suggest she has been found, and is the London-born sister of Catherine.  Unfortunately the family does not seem to have been in the habit of registering births.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: carol80 on Friday 28 June 19 22:52 BST (UK)
Arthur George. Is it possible he used his 2nd name instead of Arthur ?
Maybe Alice used her grandfather's name on Marriage.

Just trying to help.   Carol
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 29 July 19 16:07 BST (UK)
Continued the search - agree with AVM228 and this is probably the right A G Hodson. No progress since - have followed the sister (Catherine) line to no avail. I'm believing I will have to wait until the 1921 Census to see if it has Alice Winifred's place of birth or her mothers place of birth!
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 16:49 BST (UK)
Have you considered DNA genealogy in case it provides any connections whilst you wait for January 2022 to roll around?  (Perhaps you are more patient than me!)
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 29 July 19 17:18 BST (UK)
The family's 1911 entry under surname Duffield  ???

www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWG1-3PC

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 29 July 19 17:21 BST (UK)
Birth for Alice Winifred under Duffield?

Births 4th Qrt 1896 
Duffield Alice Winifred       
St. Geo. East   
1c/ 341

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 29 July 19 17:27 BST (UK)
Catherine?

Births 1st Qrt 1905 
Duffell Catherine Eliza       
Southwark   
1d/ 11

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 17:32 BST (UK)
Excellent sleuthing re Duffields.

Mother's maiden name for Alice Winifred Duffield is Brown; for Catherine Eliza Duffell it's Haywood.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 29 July 19 17:33 BST (UK)
Wow - could this finally be the one?. I will follow up now
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 17:36 BST (UK)
Catherine?

Births 1st Qrt 1905 
Duffell Catherine Eliza       
Southwark   
1d/ 11

Monica

I don't think she's a match - appears separately in census and later records.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 17:39 BST (UK)
Excellent sleuthing re Duffields.

Mother's maiden name for Alice Winifred Duffield is Brown; for Catherine Eliza Duffell it's Haywood.

Also to consider:

George Robert Duffield mmn Brown, Mar qtr 1895 London City [poss death as George Duffield, Jun qtr 1895]
William Duffield mmn Brown, Mar qtr 1900 Whitechapel [& likely death, same quarter]
Elizabeth Duffield mmn Brown, Mar qtr 1900 Whitechapel
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 29 July 19 17:48 BST (UK)
The dates line up, but Alice used 'Hodson' on her marriage cert. And on the BC's of her 9 children!. On the Marriage Cert for Elizabeth Brown is says 'Spinster'. So, unlikely she was previously married to a Hodson?
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 17:53 BST (UK)
The dates line up, but Alice used 'Hodson' on her marriage cert. And on the BC's of her 9 children!. On the Marriage Cert for Elizabeth Brown is says 'Spinster'. So, unlikely she was previously married to a Hodson?

What marriage certificate for Elizabeth Brown are you referring to?

I'd think the Hodson/Duffield situation looks more like a case of alias surnames than multiple marriages.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 17:57 BST (UK)
This marriage?

Arthur George Duffield
Elizabeth Brown 

on the same page, Dec qtr 1891 Bethnal Green 1c 552.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 29 July 19 17:59 BST (UK)
Marriage dated 16th Nov 1891 - Bethnal Green
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 18:03 BST (UK)
No father listed for Arthur George on the marriage so perhaps he was illegitimate.  Sometimes the later use of an alias happens when a child is born in one surname, later acquires a stepfather's surname, and moves between the two.  Sometimes it is for other reasons!
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 18:12 BST (UK)
The couple managed not to age like the rest of us:

Arthur George was supposedly 23 on marriage (1891), 27 in 1901, 37 in 1911.

Elizabeth was supposedly 21 on marriage (1891), 27 in 1901, 34 in 1911.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 29 July 19 18:16 BST (UK)
I've seen 'variations' in age in many records, but you are right this now seems very suspicious?
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 18:17 BST (UK)
Possible death: Arthur George Duffield aged "37", Dec qtr 1913 Whitechapel.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 18:20 BST (UK)
Another possible death: Elizabeth Duffield aged "40", Jun qtr 1916 Whitechapel.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 18:27 BST (UK)
Unfortunately neither bride nor groom appears in the 1891 census at the address cited on their marriage later that year (respectively 1 and 4 Smith's Place, Bethnal Green).

Ref for those addresses: RG12/257/89/42.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 29 July 19 18:36 BST (UK)
I now think the 'Arthur George Duffield' track is a red herring. The 1911 census has him down as George C Duffield.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 18:41 BST (UK)
I now think the 'Arthur George Duffield' track is a red herring. The 1911 census has him down as George C Duffield.

"Georg e", not George C.

Personally I think it would be a mistake to discard this line of enquiry.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 29 July 19 18:44 BST (UK)
I should have gone to specsavers! - agree George e Duffield
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 29 July 19 18:54 BST (UK)
Oh! I can't give up any 'live' track at the moment - now 2 yrs (almost every day) since I started looking for Alice.

The Duffield track still fits in many ways with the previous records - its just the 'Hodson' link that is sending me crazy!

I've not used DNA yet. Do you think it gives good a high percentage of matches?
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 18:57 BST (UK)
I am a recent recruit to Ancestry DNA and have been impressed by the quality of matches confirming my research up to 6, 7, 8 generations back.  But then I do have a huge tree so the computer has plenty to work with!
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 18:59 BST (UK)
The use of an alias is really not that unusual a find in family history.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 29 July 19 21:35 BST (UK)
Arthur George Hodson born 16 April 1873 was baptised 2 Jan 1876 at St Botolph, Aldgate.

Parents: George (soldier) and Alice, of 12 Little Somerset St.

Sister baptised at the same time: Caroline, born 4 April 1875.

Could this be Arthur George?

Births 2nd Qrt 1873
Duffield Arthur George H         
London C.    
1c/ 8

H for Hodson?

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 29 July 19 21:37 BST (UK)
GRO site:

DUFFIELD, ARTHUR  GEORGE HODSON     -     
GRO Reference: 1873  J Quarter in LONDON CITY  Volume 01C  Page 8

No maiden name for mother it seems. Birth registered under her name. Explains why Arthur George flipped between surnames (as illegitimate children were known to do).

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 29 July 19 21:51 BST (UK)
All the things I can't....

Can't see a marriage between Alice Duffield and George Hodson.

Can't see a birth reg for Caroline. However, there is this entry a couple of years later

HODSON, CHARLES  - MMN DUFFIELD     
GRO Reference: 1877  M Quarter in BETHNAL GREEN  Volume 01C  Page 227

And can't find anything so far for 1881!

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 21:56 BST (UK)
Charles Hodson b Mar qtr 1877 likely died Jun qtr 1877 Bethnal Green.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 22:13 BST (UK)
In 1896 a Caroline Hodson is admitted into the City of London workhouse for childbirth.

Caroline Hodson single 21 waitress of 28 Mansell St.  Admitted 15 May 1896; discharged 22 June 1896.
Thomas Hodson, born in [work]house 21 May 1896, mother Caroline.  Discharged (dead) 17 June 1896.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 29 July 19 22:39 BST (UK)
Ahh, well that helps with searches. So, we still only have George and Caroline as children to George and Alice. Struggling to find them really in 1881 & 1891.

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 29 July 19 22:46 BST (UK)
Mmmm...Charles may still be alive, avm228!

Possible marriage for Caroline in 1903 at St James, Shoreditch, Hackney

She shows as Alice Caroline Hodson, aged 26 and a spinster Daughter of George Hodson, a soldier.

She married Thomas O'Brien, a 27 yr old tailor.

A Charles Hodson was a witness to the marriage.

Monica

Added: Looking at later entries for her, she seems to show as either Alice or Caroline.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 29 July 19 22:57 BST (UK)
I think this is George with sister and mother in 1891 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3TW3-K2M

It looks like mother Alice Duffield married a Thomas Francis Mara - 4th 'Qrt 1885 in Whitechapel, 1c/ 730.

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 23:00 BST (UK)
OK so Alice Duffield is “40” on marriage (30 Nov 1885) and daughter of James Duffield, a shepherd.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 29 July 19 23:07 BST (UK)
Alice Caroline Hodson is showing with her mother's sister I think for 1901.

An Elizabeth Duffield married a George Francis Ewen in Hackney in 1875, father James Duffield. George and Elizabeth Francis (no mention of Ewen) are in Hackney with their family for 1901. Niece Alice Hodson is living with them, aged 26 and a waitress.

Elizabeth and sister Alice in Docking Norfolk in 1861 with their parents James and Winifred and siblings.

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 23:11 BST (UK)
Yes, and by 1871 Alice is in domestic service in London but is a patient in Westminster Hospital on census night. RG10/132/6/6.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 29 July 19 23:18 BST (UK)
I think Alice Snr was already in London by 1871. Possible entry for her showing as a patient at Westminster Hospital:

Alice Hodson, 23, servant b. Norfolk.

Added: Sorry, post on this crossed over.

She then would have met George Hodson, with whom she had at least 3 children with. She is still missing with the children in 1881. George Hudson, soldier, we know nothing about. Alice went on to marry Thomas O'Mara in 1885 and shows with him and children George and Caroline in 1891. We have some idea of what happened with Alice Caroline , George's sister, from there and also with George who we pick up now from daughter Alice's birth under the surnames of either Duffield or Hodson.

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 23:26 BST (UK)
 The witness Charles Hodson from 1903 isn’t our (deceased!) boy from 1877 I don’t think.

I do think he may be the Charles Hodson who in 1901 is 32 b Bermondsey and in Aldgate stepson of a William Silson? who I think in turn was a witness to the marriage of Arthur George Duffield and Elizabeth Brown in 1891.

My head hurts ;D
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Monday 29 July 19 23:29 BST (UK)
Me too  ;D

Charles Hodson may help us in finding out something on George?

But that will have to all wait till tomorrow.

Hate it when we have to be sensible and think of a working day tomorrow!

Monica

Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Monday 29 July 19 23:31 BST (UK)
William “Silson” is in fact William Silcox, who married Mary Jane Hodson 22 Sep 1872 Bethnal Green.

William was a bachelor, bootmaker, son of Jacob Silcox, decd.

Mary Jane was a widow, daughter of George Reynolds, builder.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 30 July 19 10:29 BST (UK)
Mary Jane Reynolds married Charles Hodson on 4 January 1862. She is a widow by 1871 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRFD-5D9

From marriage, father George, a builder, as you found on the second marriage register. Charles is showing as a 24 yr old warehouseman, father a Richard Hodson, farmer.

Have to step further back to find details on George, the soldier, it seems.

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 30 July 19 10:56 BST (UK)
Charles Hodson snr may have died Mar qtr 1871 St Olave Southwark aged 36.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 30 July 19 11:04 BST (UK)
OK i think the Hodson family of Over, Cambridgeshire are the link.

1851 shows Richard (a farmer) & Ann with children including Charles 15 and George 4: HO107/1749/310/14.

Later (1871, 1874) there are military desertion records for George Hodson of the Grenadier Guards - born c1847 at Over, Cambridgeshire.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Tuesday 30 July 19 11:52 BST (UK)
This is really hotting up now!. Will trawl through the posts and try to find a timeline for Alice, George and Elizabeth (Mother?). Appreciate all your help and posts to date.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 30 July 19 12:03 BST (UK)
The birth of George Hodson may (unhelpfully) have been registered as Samuel Hodson, mmn Adams, Sep qtr 1846 St Ives.  District and mmn are a match for his siblings.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 30 July 19 12:11 BST (UK)
This may be George Hodson snr in 1881:

21 Stopford Rd, Kennington, Lambeth

George Hodson Head Mar 27 Greengrocer (out of bus.) Cambridgeshire
Sarah do Wife Mar 28 Middlesex
Richard do Son 2 Middlesex
William do Son 7mo Middlesex

RG11/552/15/23.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Tuesday 30 July 19 12:15 BST (UK)
I'm losing the thread now. Previously we had

George Hodson was a 34yr old porter of fruit when he was admitted to Stepney workhouse infirmary on 9 June 1907, suffering from mental illness.  He was discharged home on 14 June 1907.

He was readmitted aged 37 (labourer) on 20 April 1910, suffering from rheumatism.  Home address was 8 Paternoster Row.  Wife Elizabeth, and 2 children (Catherine and Alice Winifred).  He was discharged on 26 April 1910.

Follow this up (albeit with the name Duffield?) in the 1911 Census then the dates fit well. Still doesn't explain the Hodson/Duffield name enigma. accepting the Duffieldor Hodson as an alias would work, but both seem so random.

Am I way off track here?

 
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 30 July 19 13:01 BST (UK)
Hodson/Duffield isn’t random, though - he was registered as Arthur George Hodson Duffield at birth in 1873 (but baptised as Hodson, perhaps because his parent(s) didn’t want to admit his illegitimacy in the church context).

Parents were Alice Duffield and her partner (not husband) George Hodson.

See in particular replies 44, 45 - and onwards, where Alice and George snr have been traced further.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Tuesday 30 July 19 13:37 BST (UK)
So two baptisms for Arthur George - 2 Nov 1873 (Putney) and 2 Jan 1876 (Aldgate) Both with George Hodson and Alice Hodson (Duffield?). Wonder why twice? - different faiths (Catholic & CoE). Unless the first child died?
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 30 July 19 13:44 BST (UK)
So two baptisms for Arthur George - 2 Nov 1873 (Putney) and 2 Jan 1876 (Aldgate) Both with George Hodson and Alice Hodson (Duffield?). Wonder why twice? - different faiths (Catholic & CoE). Unless the first child died?

It’s the same child, as shown by the birthdate.  Both C of E churches.  Probably just one of those things - by the time they went to baptise Caroline they had forgotten Arthur George had already been baptised, or George was away the first time and so they did both together in 1876.  Unfortunately a baptism record doesn’t tell you whether either parent (or both) were present but I wouldn’t read much into it at all.

Re-baptism shouldn’t happen from a sacramental point of view, but in real life people get things wrong.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Tuesday 30 July 19 18:09 BST (UK)
So, in summarising the excellent detective work from AVM228 and MonicaL I have

Arthur George Hodson Duffield Born 1873. London. (Father George Hodson, a soldier - Mother Alice Duffield)
Arthur Married Elizabeth Brown 1891
Daughter Alice Winfred born 1896. London
Daughter Catherine born 1905/6. London (no BC yet)
1911 Census - all 4 living in Spitalfields. London.
Alice Winifred married George Jacklin - Tendring. Essex 1915
Alice Jacklin died 1942 (had 9 children - 4 survived)

I can't yet: could find them in 1901 Census?
                 what did Alice Winifred do between 1911 and 1915?
                 work out when/where Arthur died (deceased on Alice's MC in 1915)
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Tuesday 30 July 19 18:12 BST (UK)
And ......

Admitted to workhouse in Stepney/Tower Hamlets, 21 Apr 1910

Alice Winifred Hodson, 13y 7mo
Catherine Hodson, 5y 8mo

of 8 Paternoster Row.

Parents: Arthur George (in infirmary) and Elizabeth, of 8 Paternoster Row or 40/60? Crispin St.

On 22 April 1910 Catherine Hodson, 5, dau of George and Elizabeth, Roman Catholic, was admitted to the infirmary suffering from bronchitis.  Discharged with mother on 26 April.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 30 July 19 19:59 BST (UK)
No trace of a birth registration for Catherine has been found.

I have revisited the Catherine Quinton, later Hodson, found at reply #14 and she seems to have had maiden surname Smith.  She therefore appears to have been a red herring (sorry).  More work to be done on finding the right Catherine.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 30 July 19 21:25 BST (UK)
We had George, wife Elizabeth and Alice showing as Hodson in 1901 earlier. Let me find the entry again to add here.

Added: From medpat earlier:

1901

George Hodson      27 born Aldgate and down as general labourer
Elizabeth Hodson  27  born Aldgate
Alice Hodson       4   born St George's

living at what appears to be Winterton St St Georges in the East

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 30 July 19 21:34 BST (UK)

                 what did Alice Winifred do between 1911 and 1915?
                 work out when/where Arthur died (deceased on Alice's MC in 1915)

From earlier by amv228:

Possible death: Arthur George Duffield aged "37", Dec qtr 1913 Whitechapel.

This death year fits well with George father showing as deceased by 1915 and Alice's marriage.

Also, you had from earlier:

Another possible death: Elizabeth Duffield aged "40", Jun qtr 1916 Whitechapel.

Monica

Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 30 July 19 21:50 BST (UK)
How about this for a mangled indexing for Catherine's birth?

HOGSDON, CATHERINE  KATE   mmn BRANCH     
GRO Reference: 1904  M Quarter in POPLAR  Volume 01C  Page 653

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 30 July 19 22:06 BST (UK)
How about this for a mangled indexing for Catherine's birth?

HOGSDON, CATHERINE  KATE   mmn BRANCH     
GRO Reference: 1904  M Quarter in POPLAR  Volume 01C  Page 653

Monica

Regrettably I don’t think she’s ours!

She can be traced separately - spends time in the workhouse with sister Olive.

Olive Hogsdon mmn Branch, Jun qtr 1900 Poplar.

Parents John Hogsdon and Charlotte Branch married Jun qtr 1898 Poplar.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 30 July 19 22:38 BST (UK)
Not mangled then but perfectly indexed it seems!

Catherine remains awol doesn't she  :-\

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 30 July 19 22:52 BST (UK)
This is a possible death for Arthur George's mother Alice:

Deaths 2nd Qrt 1896   
Alice Mara   48 Mile End - 1c/ 297

And possible too for her husband:

Deaths 1st 1900 
Thomas Francis Mara   47 Poplar - 1c/ 454

We had them in 1891 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3TW3-F6Z

Can't see any trace of them in 1901 so may well have died between the censuses.

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 05 August 19 17:50 BST (UK)
now got copy of BC for Duffield, Arthur George Hodson. All fits well. Ordered BC for Alice Winifred Duffield (Hodson). if all works well then the Alice Hodson enigma will be solved (after 2 years of searching). Fingers crossed!. Then its back in the generations. Thanks to all for help so far.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 06 August 19 10:40 BST (UK)
Let us know how you get on  ;)

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: Daisypetal on Friday 23 August 19 19:24 BST (UK)

Hi,

I found this baptism that could be Catherine,


England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms

DUFFIELD
7 Paternoster Rd Spital

Birth date:   08 Aug 1903
Baptism date:   23 Sep 1903

Catherine DUFFIELD

Parents:  George & Elizabeth DUFFIELD  mmn: BROWN

Godparents:  testio? Richard HILL, Alice Winifred DUFFIELD

Church   St Anne
Deanery   Tower Hamlets
Ecclesiastical province   Westminster

Parish   Underwood Road
Diocese   Westminster
County   Middlesex



and this Catherine HODSON with the same DOB,

London, England, School Admissions and Discharges, 1840-1911
Hackney, Hamond Square School
Admission and Discharge Register for Infants

24.08.08
HODSON Catherine
Parent:  George
6 Little Essex St
DOB:  08.08.03
18.09.08    Removed


Regards,
Daisy
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 24 August 19 15:47 BST (UK)
Looks very likely for Catherine. Great find, Daisypetal  ;)

Monica
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Saturday 24 August 19 16:44 BST (UK)
Great find Daisy,

another part of the Jigsaw. I've now tracked Alice Hodson (Duffield) back two more generations. The Catherine link is another track to follow. I have Both Alice & Catherine in 1911 (under the name Duffield) in Spitalfields.

Jamesgeorge
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: Daisypetal on Saturday 24 August 19 18:25 BST (UK)
Hi,

You might have already seen this but just in case :)

It does seem to verify that Elizabeth was married to George DUFFIELD/HODSON,


London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1764-1930
Tower Hamlets, Stepney
LMA Ref:  STBG/WH/123/046

Date:  1911 Friday 4th August
DUFFIELD Elizabeth    alias HOD??N
Age:  34
Admitted from:  31 Linaker? St   
Own or friends home:  1
Wife of George
Calling:  ? Market Porter
Cause of admission:  Dropsy & Abscess of Breast
Religion:  RC
By whom Admitted:  COWARD?
Time admitted:  10.40
Ward admitted to:  E2 1
Settlement:  6 weeks?
Date of Discharge:  12.10.11
Remarks:  Husband to my? address
                Sister Mrs SKELT,  1 Mansell Passage, Mansell St, Aldgate


This shows that it was the Whitechapel Infirmary,

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/75059c13-dbb9-47dc-a263-33dcc789486a

Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 24 August 19 19:02 BST (UK)
That’s a great find.

Mrs Skelt of 1 Mansell Passage was Mary Skelt, b City of London abt 1862-3, wife of George Skelt.

She is Mary A or Mary Ann Skelt in some records, including at death Sep qtr 1916 Whitechapel aged 53.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 24 August 19 19:04 BST (UK)
George Skelt married Mary Brown, Dec qtr 1882 Whitechapel 1c 862.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: spendlove on Saturday 24 August 19 20:18 BST (UK)
Hi

Re George Hodson born 1846 Over, Cambridgeshire

On Ancestry he appears in records of Fold3, if you have world access you can see the entries which appeared in the Police Gazatte re his desertion.

Desertion. 11.2.1871. Age 24 born abt 1847 Over. Published (police gazette) 6.3.1871
Regimental number 2522

Desertion 2.12.1874 Age 28 born 1846 Over. Published 21.12.1874 Regimental number 3234

Both entries state Grenadier Guards.

If any one has full access, these records may give other info.

Spendlove
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Sunday 25 August 19 13:20 BST (UK)
Hi all,

great finds!.

the next challenge is to find a BC or baptism for George Hodson on Over, (Cambridgeshire or Huntingdonshire) around 1846. I've got one for Jan 1847, but this is Sawtry and I think he died in 1854! (I'm pretty sure George died in London in 1897)

Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Sunday 25 August 19 13:26 BST (UK)

the next challenge is to find a BC or baptism for George Hodson on Over, (Cambridgeshire or Huntingdonshire) around 1846.

See my previous suggestion at reply #63.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Sunday 25 August 19 14:07 BST (UK)
Hi AVM228,

I did follow this up previously, but will refresh my notes, certainly Richard Hodson was married to Anne Adams so this fits with the 1851 & census and this birth record, apart from the name 'Samuel' (rather than George)- I will get BC and check again,

Thanks

JamesGeorge
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: spendlove on Sunday 25 August 19 16:28 BST (UK)
Hi

The marriage is

Richard Hodson = Ann Adams 24 August 1825, both of parish of Over at time of marriage by Bsnns.

This info from Family Search with Image.  One of the witnesses was Warren Adams!

Lots of records for Over all with images.

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Over,_Cambridgeshire_Genealogy

Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Sunday 25 August 19 18:51 BST (UK)
Hi Spendlove, Thanks,

I have these records (marriage and Census), its the BC for George Hodson 1846 thats difficult to trace. I’m looking into a BC with the name of ‘Samuel’ Hodson in 1846 with the MMN of Adams,

I will let you know
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: spendlove on Monday 26 August 19 12:19 BST (UK)
Hi,

I do not think there is a problem with the Bpt for George Hodson, he was Bpt 27 Sept 1853 at Over.

The records do not show this was a late Bpt., however if you compare Bpt for the other children of Richard and Ann there are others that were late being Bpt

Name.                Approx birth year on census            Bpt at Over

Ann                      1826                                            9,4.1826
William.                 1828.                                          30.3.1828.     Bur 19.2.1862
Martin.                   1830.                                          8.4. 1832.             25.11.1826
Eliza.                      1833.                                          21.7.1833
Charles.                  1836.                                          17.9.1843
Harriet.                   1837  ?                                      11.11.1849.          28.12.1852 aged 8
George.                   1846.                                         27.9.1853

Easy to search all the above on find my past

Just wondered if you had noticed that when George first leaves home, on 1861 Census Chelsea he is living with Windsor Vokes and family lSchool master late of Over.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 26 August 19 12:34 BST (UK)
Hi Spendlove,

I did know about the Bpt’ms - it’s the BC thats difficult to track. I also knew about George in Windsor in 1861  - he went on to join the army from there and appears in the 1871 census in the Grenadier Guards. Seems to have gone through a couple of desertion trials in the late 1870’s.

I’m sure this is the right George, but may have been registered under a different first name - I’m researching this,

as always thanks for the detective work

JamesGeorge
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: spendlove on Monday 26 August 19 14:30 BST (UK)
Hi

The only way to discover the details of the Samuel Hodson registered 1846 in St. Ives is to purchase the birth registration certificate.

Have you managed to access the fold 3, army records?  Sorry I do not have premium sub but it may give you other info.

I have searched the national archives catalogue for George H, but he does not appear.

Spendlove

 
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Monday 26 August 19 14:40 BST (UK)
Hi Spendlove, I’m waiting for a copy of the BC. Fold3 doesn’t hold much more than I’ve already got.

Watch this space

JamesGeorge
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Tuesday 03 September 19 17:09 BST (UK)
HI All,

now got the BC for 'Samuel' Hodson 25-07-1846 (Over, Cambridge). Father is Richard Hodson and Mother Ann Adams. Therefore all the Census records etc look spot on - date wise! however, the census records use the name 'George' and this tracks all the way until his death. So, the question is where did the name 'Samuel' come from?. I've looked to see if Richard & Ann had an older child 'George' that died and Samuel adopted his name - but no joy here. Of course he could have been called Samuel George or George Samuel (not on BC!) and adopted the second name. It may be that he was never registered as George on any BC!. Certainly baptised as George in 1853 (see Spendlove comment) Appreciate any thoughts

JamesGeorge 
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 03 September 19 17:56 BST (UK)
The most likely explanation is the simplest - that they called him Samuel at birth but then, for whatever reason, changed their minds and preferred George.

At that time identification documents were rarely, if ever, used by most people.  He may never have known that he had been registered in a different name.

My aunt and uncle also had a change of heart over a name choice for a son and had to re-announce it.  Fortunately he hadn't yet been registered.
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: jamesgeorge on Tuesday 03 September 19 18:12 BST (UK)
Hi avm228,

I agree with your view that the simplest explanation is the most likely - I’ve seen this elsewhere on a couple of occasions. 
Title: Re: Looking for Maternal GM birth record
Post by: carol80 on Tuesday 03 September 19 23:34 BST (UK)
I have spent 20+ years looking for my late father-in-law's twin brother. Last month i purchased both birth certificates only to find they were the same person. My late father-in-law was named Gordon.
Certificate says; born 1912
Name if any; John
Informant; Father
Baptismal name if added after Registration; Gordon.
He was always know as Gordon.

So the simplest explanation is likely.

Hope this helps

Carol