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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Prue Heron on Tuesday 25 June 19 11:10 BST (UK)
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Looking for bio Dad. Brick wall.
Traveller / Gypsy / Fairground connections for sure. Brick wall hit at birth certificate of Iris Ina Mitchell b1923, Norwood, Surrey. mother Alice Maud Burrows ("aka Mitchell" written on Cert) and Charles Burrows ("Greengrocer, Master"). They weren't married according to any records anywhere. (Extensive search). Ina Mitchell, on the birth certificate ,was the closest relative we can trace but, can't trace her parentage or who Charles Burrows is. The address for Charles is given as 3 Addison Road, South Norwood.
There are DNA matches with Stocks, Hall, Baker (Fairground - Norfolk area). Other names are Massey, Good, Wiseman, O’Regan, O'Connor - we have managed to track most of these down. But we just can't connect them to our 'Mitchell' and 'Charles Burrows'.
Ina's daughter and I have 2nd cousin match but we are completely stumped and would love to find the answer before I fall off my perch! Have spent a year on t his.
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Greetings, and a warm welcome to Rootschat
Have you looked for Iris on the 1939 register? If she is with parents you should get birth dates which might help the search.
I had a quick look on FreeBMD for children born 1910-1930 to BURROWS/MITCHELL and there aren't many. There are three registered in West Derby 1916-19, one in Halifax 1920, your Iris in Croydon 1923 then a few more in Yorks/Lancs. So, if Iris had siblings, Yorks/Lancs seems the likeliest place for them to have been born.
Philip
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Greetings Philip - thanks so much for your response. LB my strongest paternalDNA match says that her Mum, Irish Ina, knew very little of the family history. Iris's Mum, Alice Maud(e)was apparently feckless - given to going between the Burrows and Mitchell names and we don't know if there are more children. Or whether Charles Burrows was a short lived relationship or, indeed, if that was Iris Ina's father's true name. It's what's on the birth certificate. Alice and Iris are on the 1939 register (Mitchell, then crossed out and Burrows put on top), living with a widower in Tilbury although there was apparently no relationship. She ultimately moved to Liverpool when she was old to be with one of the now-dead widower's sons and that's where she died. Alice and Iris also spent time in Devon (where the widower had other family) in Doddiscombleigh.
I think we have left every stone turned. We have been chasing every Charles Burrows high and low and having some goose chases. There is an option that he did exist and was a gypsy with no formal records. The gypsy/fairground links are very strong with DNA matches to the Masseys in Oxford (a Gamekeeper, married to Good, a gypsy)/ as well as links to Fairground families - Stocks, Halls and Bakers in East Anglia. The O'Connor and O'Regan Irish link must fit in with the traveller side I would think. Places are Launton, Oxford, Norfolk, Devon and S. Ireland. I have done a timeline for Alice in case that's of interest. It's easy to get despondent but our little group of (4) new-found relatives will not give u are hoping for a breakthrougg. If you think of anything, would be delighted but can understand it is a big challenge. Kind regards, Prue.
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What was Alice Maud Mitchells birthdate in 1939?
Do you know her origins?
Annette
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It has her date of birth on 1939 register as November 1904. She had her name on the 1939 register as 'Constable; which was the name of the widower whose home she was living in. That has been crossed out and 'Burrows' put in - ie the name of the alleged father of her child, Iris Ina. Her origins are the problem :We think she may have lied about her age.. But just not sure. Henry Constable had 2 previous wives but not those dates. Although we have the story of the gypsy background possibly which could fit in with other links. I will add the census entry. We have all these DNA links as pointers as above post but that's it.
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Thanks for posting that, Prue Heron. Certainly odd re. the birthdate?? People often lied about the year they were born but not the actual birthday - stated as born 11th November 1894 (not 1904) but written above 9th June 1882.
Annette
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Thank you for response Annette - the 04 was a typo... you are right... anything to confuse! Will go back to the drawing board. So near and yet so far.! Prue
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The surname was changed to BURROWS after an event which occurred around Nov 1969 in the Ongar district (DDR 11.11.69). The '6' is possibly a '4', I'm not sure. What information do you have that tells you this is your Alice?
Debra :)
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..... mother Alice Maud Burrows ("aka Mitchell" written on Cert)
So it actually says 'aka' or 'also known as' with no word 'formerly' there to indicate it is a maiden surname?
Debra :)
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Thanks for response Debra. Alice's Granddaughter, Lynne is my new found closest DNA link to my unknown father. All information is what was remembered by her deceased mother, Iris. Iris remembered going to Devon a few times to stay with someone called Olive. And that she was very close to the Constables (who she may have met in Devon). She eventually moved to live with widower Henry Constable in Tilbury until his death (and he left his inheritance to her) and then she moved to live near one of his sons in Newcastle where she died. If we can find Alice, Iris and Lynne's family; we should find my father along the way.
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Here is the birth certifice showing Charles Burrows and Alice Mitchell
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That's very interesting re the aka. And what on earth would precipitate that retrospective change on the register in 1969.... We have a little group of 5 of us new relatives trying to find the answers.. over a year now.. So at least I an add something new..
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The 1939 register was updated until 1991. She may have been applying for an aged pension, but not knowing what year she was born it is hard to tell. How old did they think she was when she died?
Your cert didn't attach.
Debra :)
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Sorry for delays... getting to grips with Rootschat. I phonesnapped the birth certificate so hope you can see now. Re the Mitchell aka - Alice visited the family who had emigrated to NZ in 1954 and wrote her family names (allegedly) in their baby book. Father John Mitchell. Mother Mary Ann Mitchell. Herself as Alice Maud Constable!
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Seems like I can't attach anything... I managed to shrink the 1939 entry but anything else is too big. :-(
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Debra, hope I'm replying to you. Just getting Alice's death date..
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Alice died April/May/June 1955 in Newcastle. Name on death certificate was Burrows. Probate was 7th June 1955
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Alice died April/May/June 1955 in Newcastle. Name on death certificate was Burrows. Probate was 7th June 1955
This is not adding up - this death was for a plain Alice, probate to an Eva Wilson, wife of Daniel Wilson, and she lived in Newcastle! Earlier in the thread you said she died in Liverpool so surely the Alice M Burrows bc.1883, death Sept.qtr.1958 Liverpool South must be her??
Annette
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Annette - so sorry! It is Newcastle - got my wires crossed. Humble pie being eaten here.
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Just wondering why her death would be as plain Alice when all other sightings of her have her as Alice M. or Alice Maud (and who was Eva Wilson)?
You say if we can find Alice, Iris and Lynne's family we should find your father along the way - so who was your father as nothing been said of him before?
Annette
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Hello Annette7 - so we don;t know where my father comes into the equation except that Lynne is 2nd cousin level. Her Mum born 1923. I was born in July 1947 (conceived cNovember 1946). Hope that makes sense. Lynne is the closest paternal relative so we are starting from there. Also we both link to the Stocks, Halls and Bakers (fairgrounds) and we have O'Connor and/or O'Regan linking in from Ireland.
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This is getting more bizarre by the moment - a tree on ancestry has Iris Ina Burrows born 23/2/1923 Norwood, dau. of Charles Burrows and Harriet Alice Mitchell, nee Russell which doesn't make sense since Iris' birth certificate shows her mothers maiden name as Mitchell and not Russell.
Sending you a PM.
Annette
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The probate notice is right - she died in that home stated on there and we are thinking that maybe they didn't bother to be accurate about a second name.... or maybe even know she had one.
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For others following this thread, Prue Heron has sent me a copy of the birth certificate of Iris Ina Burrows - born 21st February 1923 at 3 Addison Road, South Norwood, dau. of Charles Burrows, Greengrocer (Master) and Alice Burrows, nee Mitchell. Informant was the father Charles Burrows of same address who registered the birth on 4th April 1923.
3 Addison Road, South Norwood was a greengrocers in 1911 - have you viewed electoral rolls for the address to see how long Charles Burrows (and presumably Alice) was there? Can't see this available online.
Annette
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Iris remembered going to Devon a few times to stay with someone called Olive.
9 September 1921 - Norwood News - London, London, England
WEAR BLOOMERS. MR. S. G. EDRIDGE AND CYCLE PILLION RIDERS. "If you want to ride like that, you had better wear bloomers, you know. It is much better," Mr. S. G. Edridge clerk to Croydon magistrates, told Olive Burrows, a girl of about 16, of 3 Addison road, Beath Norwood at Folios Court on Tuesday.
Most of the rest is a bit of OCR nonsense but apparently she was wearing a skirt while riding pillion and it was covering the number plate.
Perhaps this is the Olive that Iris remembered, possibly Charles' daughter?
Debra :)
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Blimey!! As they say! What a find! And Olive is the other name that Alice mentioned a lot.! Be back - just want to share with the group. Thank you!
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So exciting... and opens up new possibilities... seems possible it wasn't a short relationship and one baby, Iris!. Was Olive, Alice's sister... this is a big leap forward - thank you so much... Good find!
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I didn;t know you could search by address on electoral roll. Will have a look...
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Have just replied to Prue via personal email and will try to post a synopsis of what I will type out for her later today as it is highly involved. I think I have identified just who Alice was but it will require a birth certificate to absolutely confirm.
Got pages of notes and got to get them all in some kind of order first - however, I do like a good mystery and will post a precis of it later today. I'm not being secretive just thorough and think I know who 'Olive' was too.
I agree - the electoral roll for 3 Addison Road, South Norwood for say 1920 to 1925 (at the very least) is required. It was certainly a Greengrocers in 1911 - Alice herself may not be listed 1920/1922 as I believe it was only around 1923 that women started being shown having just got the vote.
Watch this space...…
Annette
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Yay, I will put the headache pills away ;D
Debra :)
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Thanks Debra :)
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The probate notice is right - she died in that home stated on there and we are thinking that maybe they didn't bother to be accurate about a second name.... or maybe even know she had one.
Buried at Elswick Cemetery, 17 May 1955
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJN-V9FD-C?i=193&cat=828351
Register of Graves K 92
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1L-3S1B-V?i=203&cat=828351
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Thank you so much! ... and I see she didn't have 'Maud' on either of those either. Suspect staff didn't know. I am still on the electoral registers......
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The only time Alice is 'Alice Maude' is on will of Henry Edwin Constable, and when she is living with him in 1939 she shows as Alice M. On everything else she is plain Alice.
As mentioned earlier, when Alice signed a baby book she stated her parents were named John and Mary Ann Mitchell and that was the key to this.
Her parents were John Mitchell and Mary Ann Webber married 1869 Burrington, Devon. Alice (plus an older and younger sibling) were baptised 22/11/1885 Highweek, Devon - their birthdates were given but unfortunately looks like the vicar forgot to note Alice's as just says June ? 1882 (? transcribed on FindMyPast as '7' but looking at copy of original it has clearly been written in by a different hand and is definitely a question mark. Her birth was reg'd Sept.qtr.1882 South Molton (Devon) - mmn Webber. Would suggest purchasing the birth certificate to confirm the birthdate is indeed 9/6/1882 as on 1939 register. It was definitely June anyway.
Now starts getting complicated - on 31/10/1904 Highweek, Devon Alice Mitchell marries a Cyril Burrows and they move to Middlesex where a daughter Phoebe Olive Beatrice Burrows was born 25/3/1905 Acton. (This is the Olive previously mentioned in 1921 Newspaper). A son Cecil John Charles Burrows was born in 1910 Hanwell, who unfortunately died in 1914. These appear to be the only 2 children - when Cyril enlisted in 1914 the couple were still together but by 1921 they were clearly living apart. We know their daughter was with Alice at 3 Addison Road, South Norwood but from 1921 to 1930 Cyril was living in East Acton with his parents and a brother. By 1939 he is with a Sarah A. Mitchell (yes, Mitchell).
Alice had a brother William Henry Mitchell who married Cyril Burrow's sister Sarah Anne (yes, a brother and sister married a brother and sister) 12/10/1907 St. Dunstan, Acton. William Henry Mitchell died 1928 and his widow is living with Cyril Burrows in 1939 (quite possibly because they were both alone and not necessarily in a relationship.
Phoebe Olive Beatrice Burrows married in Devon in 1928 (home of her maternal grandparents) to a Charles E. George. They lived Newton Abbot but do not appear to have had any children. Knowing she was known as 'Olive' this is clearly the Olive that Lynne B's family remember in Devon. Cyril Burrows ultimately died in 1965 Witney, Oxfordshire - probate was to a firm of solicitors. Daughter Phoebe Olive George - born 25/8/1905 - died Apr.1993 West Oxfordshire.
Knowing Alice and her daughter were at 3 Addison Road from at least 1921 to 1923 we need to establish from electoral rolls who was registered as living at that address at that time. Father of Alice's daughter Iris Ina may have been a Charles, and a greengrocer (that address was a greengrocers in 1911 and probably still was in 1923) but I don't believe he was a 'Burrows' at all (although may well be wrong) and simply assumed that persona to register the birth thus ensuring that Iris Ina's birth did not look like an illegitimate one. So, Alice was indeed married to a Burrows but a Cyril not a Charles, who was definitely not a Greengrocer. The greengrocer living at 3 Addison Road must surely be the child's father.
Hope I've covered everything. Haven't listed all in my notes but easy to check all the facts.
Annette
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Thank you so much for all the research done.. we are busy perusing all this new information and taking it in! I am sending off for Alice's birth certificate in a moment. Transpires that you can't get the 1920s electoral roll online but I have the contact details of a person at the local museum where the records are held. If we can just nail the name of Iris' Dad now.... we'll be well on our way. Thanks so much for all the (totally unexpected) help. Will keep you posted, of course! It's getting exciting again. Our brick wall is tumbling down.! ;)
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the name Charles Burrows probably came easily to the grocer because there was a Charles Oliver Burrows at Kingston upon Thames who had a small chain of grocers shops and was a big(ish) wig in the grocers association.
Added, and I meant to say Annette, what a great piece of sleuthing. Lots of lessons there for me.
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Transpires that you can't get the 1920s electoral roll online but I have the contact details of a person at the local museum where the records are held.
Hope you do better than the info in the local directory (on ancestry)
Kelly's Directory of Croydon, South Norwood, Coulsdon, Purley 1923
Street Directory (image 85)
Addison road, South Norwood (S.E.25)
East Side
3 Burrows Chas. genl. stores
Also in the Commercial Directory.
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Kelly's Directory of Croydon, etc. 1926
Addison road, South Norwood (S.E.25)
East Side
3 Burrows Chas. genl. stores
A change in the 1927 directory.
3 Charman Walt. genl. stores
Ditto 1928.
Going back to 1919, Edmund Walter Neale was listed.
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Good to know that there was indeed a Charles Burrows living a 3 Addison Road - however, can only hope for a second initial on the electoral rolls. I don't think he is Charles Oliver Burrows, Grocer - this man married an Annie Lucy Gubbins in 1905 Kingston and had 2 daughters. His wife died June quarter 1933 Kingston and probate index shows administration granted to her husband Charles Oliver Burrows. The following year he remarried to a Sarah Fagence and he died in 1947.
Annette
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Not yet sure how to reply to individuals but Jon - thank you so much for Kelly's Directory information - a very big brick taken out of the wall there.! And Annette I had considered that COB as a contender (what a big coincidence that would have been re surnames!) - an upstanding pillar of the community. Hopefully we will get a middle name or initial when the electoral roll information comes through.
We really appreciate your helping us.
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There was another Charles Oliver BURROWS born in 1891 in Brentford district. His father was Charles BURROWS (a soldier according to Charles Jnr's marriage in 1916 to Edith HUNT) and from BMD indexes and census, his mother was Martha Maria GUM. This Charles was a ship store-keeper when he married.
Then there was Cyril's brother Charles who was registered as Henry Charles also in Brentford district in 1891. What happened to him?
Debra :)
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Then there was Cyril's brother Charles who was registered as Henry Charles also in Brentford district in 1891. What happened to him?
Debra :)
[/quote]
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4Z-BLZ Golf club maker
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Just come back to this to check that I gave you an update.
I received electoral roll information from Croydon Museum which showed a 'Charles Arthur Burrows' Grocer living at 3 Addison Road from 1921-23. And Alice Burrows registered in 1923. We are now left with wondering who this Charles Arthur Burrows was.
Alice's husband from whom she was separated was Cyril Burrows. Cyril had a brother named Charles and one called Arthur. I am tryng to follow these through to see if either could be our man but so far,
neither looks like a grocer. Or indeed, did Charles assume her name to add 'decency' to the birth certificate? (But if Charles had been resident at 3 Addison Road with Alice only arriving later, then we could assume that was his real name which he rented the property under).
Hope all this makes sense to anyone who hasn't lost interest! Prue
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Thank you for posting back Prue.
A couple of random thoughts I’m not sure will help, but perhaps helps show closer family connections Sarah the sister of Cyril who married William Mitchell had a daughter Doris Ivy, born 1909, she married Ernest C HALLETT, and see where she is in 1939
So, surely this means Cyril cannot have washed his hands of Olive.
Also, I note looking at the family of Charles BURROWS and Anness née CUTLER, that Edgar was also Edgar Charles.
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Thank you for posting back Prue.
A couple of random thoughts I’m not sure will help, but perhaps helps show closer family connections Sarah the sister of Cyril who married William Mitchell had a daughter Doris Ivy, born 1909, she married Ernest C HALLETT, and see where she is in 1939
So, surely this means Cyril cannot have washed his hands of Olive.
Also, I note looking at the family of Charles BURROWS and Anness née CUTLER, that Edgar was also Edgar Charles.
Thank you for response. Since the original conversations on here and Annette's finding of THE Alice Mitchell, we have found a relative who has carried out immense research into the family. At first, we thought it was the wrong Alice as he has her dying in Devon rather than Newcastle but so many other things add up. He was very keen that we did not publish any part of the document in case it was not 100% right as we have seen the problems this causes with online family trees. He has included the Doris you refer to and I hadn't really looked at her in detail until now! Can I add it as a pm on here? Prue
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Then there was Cyril's brother Charles who was registered as Henry Charles also in Brentford district in 1891. What happened to him?
Debra :)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4Z-BLZ Golf club maker
[/quote]
I found another thread that has this from 2011
My name is Graham Burrows from Durban South Africa. I know this thread is a couple of years old but I have been trying to find background information on my Grandfather Henry Charles Burrows and Google picked up the thread for me. He was a golf professional who immigrated to this country, probably in the late 1920's. I have always understood that his father was a Head Gardener in the UK somewhere but ground keeper sounds pretty good . We knew my Grandfather as Charles. He married Rosa Kathleen Coleman who died in the 1940's. He died ca 1962, and I would have guessed he was around 70 years old. He had three children, the eldest M*******, who I understand might still be alive in Australia, my father Robert Cyril (died 1974) and Joan (also deceased). Quite a lot of my family has gone back to the UK. My father was born in North Leyton (Essex) in 1916 (I have his birth certificate). A lot of this seems to fit in with what I have read in this thread, and he could possibly be the Charles b 1891 mentioned in your posting
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https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/54593-A-challenge/page3
Added, I’ve just read right to the end and see you have already found that thread, however I’ll leave this as it does tell us what happens to Henry Charles
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Then there was Cyril's brother Charles who was registered as Henry Charles also in Brentford district in 1891. What happened to him?
Debra :)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4Z-BLZ Golf club maker
I found another thread that has this from 2011
My name is Graham Burrows from Durban South Africa. I know this thread is a couple of years old but I have been trying to find background information on my Grandfather Henry Charles Burrows and Google picked up the thread for me. He was a golf professional who immigrated to this country, probably in the late 1920's. I have always understood that his father was a Head Gardener in the UK somewhere but ground keeper sounds pretty good . We knew my Grandfather as Charles. He married Rosa Kathleen Coleman who died in the 1940's. He died ca 1962, and I would have guessed he was around 70 years old. He had three children, the eldest M*******, who I understand might still be alive in Australia, my father Robert Cyril (died 1974) and Joan (also deceased). Quite a lot of my family has gone back to the UK. My father was born in North Leyton (Essex) in 1916 (I have his birth certificate). A lot of this seems to fit in with what I have read in this thread, and he could possibly be the Charles b 1891 mentioned in your posting
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https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/54593-A-challenge/page3
Added, I’ve just read right to the end and see you have already found that thread, however I’ll leave this as it does tell us what happens to Henry Charles
[/quote]
Brilliant thanks... this is where we found the relative who did all the research but, as I said, gave up on that avenue because of the death location of Alice Mitchell but now I think this is definitely our family and reading this thread again...even more so. Thanks for prompting me to revisit it.
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This excerpt from the original Charles Burrows forum entry you wre talking about, clearly shows that Henry Charles was known as 'Charles'.... is he the same 'Charles Arthury Burrows' of 3 Addison Road who lived with Alice Maud Burrows, nee Mitchell... and where does the Greengrocer bit come from.... onwards and upwards!
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Hoping everyone can read this.. just to give you an update. I have contacted a relative of Cyril and Charles Burrows (pretty sure these are the right family... well certain really!). They are going to provide a dna test which will show my new cousin Lynne's relationship to Cyril (should be her Gt Uncle) and Charles (should be her Granddad). The latter may not be so as he may not be the Charles Burrows on the birth certificate and living at 3 Addlestone Road in South Norwood as a Grocer, with Alice Burrows (nee Mitchell).
I can imagine that you lovely researchers don't hold the initial information in your memory and will have forgotten most of this story but, just in case you can...! I will keep you posted. We wouldn't be at this stage without you. Once we have determined Lynne's grandfather, we can find a link to mine (with a bit of luck!). Thanks everyone. Prue
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Hoping everyone can read this.. just to give you an update. I have contacted a relative of Cyril and Charles Burrows (pretty sure these are the right family... well certain really!). They are going to provide a dna test which will show my new cousin Lynne's relationship to Cyril (should be her Gt Uncle) and Charles (should be her Granddad). The latter may not be so as he may not be the Charles Burrows on the birth certificate and living at 3 Addlestone Road in South Norwood as a Grocer, with Alice Burrows (nee Mitchell).
I can imagine that you lovely researchers don't hold the initial information in your memory and will have forgotten most of this story but, just in case you can...! I will keep you posted. We wouldn't be at this stage without you. Once we have determined Lynne's grandfather, we can find a link to mine (with a bit of luck!). Thanks everyone. Prue
To anyone who was so helpful to us earlier on - to update you, the Burrows family dna test came back recently and at 178 cms means that LB my newfound cousin, is highly unlikely to be related to the Burrows family. (I have put another thread on the DNA forum which was very helpful with this). A Mitchell brother married a Burrows sister and Alice Mitchell married Cyril Burrrows. The dna test was given by a descendent of the M brother and B sister. I did not come up on the match at all which we would have anticipated if I had any Burrows dna. My new cousin has only 178 despite the double genes. So we think we have confirmed the Alice Mitchell GrandMum (found,thanks to you on here!) -but Iris Ina's father is probably not a Burrows... And on we go. I hope this isn't too confusng as you are not 'living it'. Will keep you posted. Prue
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I've been contacted by Prue - we have a DNA match! - so have joined in late to this thread.
It seems definite that the Burrows name under which Ina was registered was not connected to the Cyril Burrows family, if the DNA from their relatives doesn't match.
So perhaps the way to go is to focus the search on the Charles Arthur Burrows who WAS at the address, and - given the name isn't all that rare - try and pin down who he was?
Perhaps Alice Maud had a relationship with someone who - just coincidentally - was called Burrows, like her (ex) husband.
Have we already covered this, in case I've missed it in reading this thread?
Added: Yes, on re-reading I see that people have indeed been looking for another potential Burrows to match the general dealer at the birth address. ::)
But I still think this might now be the way to go
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For anyone who remembers this story from a while back and particularly those who helped us track down Alice Mitchell who was the Grandmother of my new-found DNA cousin in NZ - I thought you deserved to hear the end of the story. We finally got there after 3 years.
Nutshell: My 70th birthday present of a DNA test, shows that my father is not my bio father. I discover 2 close cousins - Lynne in NZ and Sharon in Dublin.
We know that Alice Mitchell (Lynne's Grandmother) lived in South Norwood with a daughter and had another daughter - Iris Ina (Lynne's Mum). She is not forthcoming about Iris's Dad so we have no idea). The Birth Cert showed Mother as Alice 'Burrows' her ex-husband and father as Charles 'Burrows' ) If we could find out who CB was, it would probably lead to my father. Rootschat did their best to help but met brick walls, as did we although they traced Alice Mitchell to a Devon family which proved right (by DNA test).
Roll forward about 2 years and we deduced from DNA records and statistics that Charles Burrows had lied about his name, assuming Alice's married name and he was, in fact, Charles George Massey. He had been living in Ealing with his wife and 3 daughters but abandoned them after a huge row (newspaper cutting to support) and, we guessed, moved to South Norwood to a Grocer's Shop and lived with Alice Burrows (nee Mitchell) where Iris (Lynne's Mum) was born.
All good so far but we needed a son!!! Another year went by. Then our wonderful DNA helper from FB discovered that Charles Massey's 3 girls all had him as father on their Birth Certificates and mother 'Marie O'Regan' - his deserted wife - (maiden name)...; BUT that they had had a 4th child, a boy, Nevitt Massey. For some reason or other, (oversight?) Marie O'Regan had put her first, widowed, name on his birth certificate. So the certificate read Father, Charles George Massey, Mother formerly Marie Wren. (A check proved that she had indeed been widowed young - husband Wren). Great shouts of celebration from the new cousins!
We found that Nevitt (RIP) had married in Windsor and had 3 sons and they had moved to Canada. I immediately found two and contacted one. Neither knew anything of their father's history - the family was estranged. One agreed to do a DNA test. More agony - with Covid and Christmas slowing Ancestry down... the wait was long. Finally, one morning, with all of us with our phones kept on, the shout went round. The DNA posted positive! I had 3 new half-brothers. Lynne had found her Grandfather (as had I!) and our new Irish cousin was from our O'Regan Grandmother's line.
There was loads more to come but it needs a book. Just to say that Nevitt was in Intelligence with the SOE, lost one eye and, somewhere along the way, met my Mum post war - a beautiful married mother of a 7 year old - and I was conceived.
Hope that answers the question for anyone who remembers the story. Thank you so much for helping us along the way.