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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Lorraine Katherine on Friday 28 June 19 21:25 BST (UK)
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Hello Rootschat
Please help.
This started out as:
"Trying to find an address Wimpole House, Wharton Road, Hammersmith in 1883 – believe occupant was John P Fleming and that he may have been a private investigator, does the house or road still exist as been unable to find on a map".
So far have found:
Charles Booth Survey
https://booth.lse.ac.uk/map/17/-0.2176/51.5002/100/0?marker=523819.0,179422.0
Look up Bolingbroke Road, Wharton Road is close by on the map
Wharton Road is now Lakeside Road
1878 LONDON ELECTORAL REGISTER
Professor Of Languages
Name: Capt Charles Francis D’Arbois
Publication Year: 1878
Address: Burlington House
Residence Place: Middlesex, England
Occupation: School
1883 IRISH TIMES
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0001683/18831204/068/0002
Militia Military Competitive and Promotion Examinations (Army and Auxiliary Forces).—Lieutenant-Colonel L. Hay Shaw (late Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers) and Captain Ch. D’Arbois (late French Engineers) prepare for above. Officers are received at any time. Apply Wimpole House, Wharton Road. West Kensington Park, W. 28 sent up for Militia Military Competition. 19 successful. -{Advt]
1890 LONDON ELECTORAL REGISTER
Name: Francis Charles D’Arbois
Year: 1890
County or Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham
Ward or Division/Constituency: Hammersmith
Street address: 64 Wharton Road
1890 MORNING POST
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000174/18900426/003/0002
MILITIA COMPETITIVE EXAMINATION September 1890 A captain late of the engineers is prepared to coach privately candidates for the above, highest references, average marks obtained by last 13 pupils, topography, military law, fortification, tactics, Address F R E 11 Wharton Road
1892 LONDON ELECTORAL REGISTER
Name: Francis D’Arbois
Year: 1892
County or Borough: Hammersmith and Fulham
Ward or Division/Constituency: Hammersmith
Street address: 11 Wharton Road, no No.64 exists
1894 Death
Name: Francis Charles D’arbois
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Registration Year: 1894
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 69
Registration district: Kensington
1911 Census
James Donald Hay Shaw
Captain Royal Marine Artillery
Portsmouth
1939 National Register
Commandant Hospital For Officers, Brighton
James Donald Hay Shaw totally disabled ex-officer
Please do you know anything further on the above.
Have not been able to find anything about the elusive private detective, if he even is a private detective or if Wimpole House was a mansion or just a named residential house?
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1881 Census
Are the two Captains at 11 Wharton Road or 64 Wharton Road
1891 Census
64 Wharton Road is uninhabited
11 Wharton Road Charles F W ‘Arbois, Army Tutor School
Wife Marin
Daughter Minnette
Servant Anne Oldfield
Could the two Captains be teaching espionage, spying, private detective work?
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What is the relationship between John Fleming and Charles D’Arbois?
Which one of those people are you researching, or it is solely the location of:
Wimpole House
Wharton Road
Hammersmith
that you are looking for?
What documentation do you have which infers that John Fleming was a private investigator?
Two Captains”? Are you saying John Fleming was a Captain too?
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What is the relationship between John Fleming and Charles D’Arbois?
Which one of those people are you researching, or it is solely the location of:
Wimpole House
Wharton Road
Hammersmith
that you are looking for?
What documentation do you have which infers that John Fleming was a private investigator?
Two Captains”? Are you saying John Fleming was a Captain too?
Thanks for your help.
Lieutenant-Colonel L. Hay Shaw (late Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers) sorry becomes Captain later
Captain Ch. D’Arbois (late French Engineers)
Relationship if any to John Fleming unknown, he may just have been renting a room
Have no documentary evidence about John Fleming living at Wimpole House in 1883, researching for a local history site just for the challenge and found yet more fascinating history, the more that is uncovered helps those researching in the future
The newspapers mention Wimpole House, Wharton Road, no house number so could be No.11 or No.64, no house name on 1891 census, trying to find No.11 or No.64 on 1881 census, why called Wimpole House?
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Sorry, I missed the mention of James Shaw in the 1911 census and 1939 register. Also, apologies in advance if I have missed or misunderstood anything else ..... but ......
Can I clarify please? In your opening post you say John Fleming is at this address in 1883. You also say you have no documentary evidence he is living there in 1883, which is contradictory.
Where did you get this from? What leads you to believe he was a private investigator? This date and occupation must have come from somewhere. :-\
If Wimpole House was some kind of army training institution there could be any number of men passing through at various times. Unless you have further information I don’t understand why you are proposing it has anything to do with espionage. Can you explain what leads you to suggest this?
Nice to try to help any future researchers, though maybe suggesting spying and espionage classes at Wimpole House might be misleading unless you have some documentation to back up the claims :)
Added: I am currently on ipad so not so easy to research, but I will try to do some digging later if no one has come to your assistance in the mean time.
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Hello thanks for your help.
Unfortunately no documentary evidence has been quoted, so have asked where
John P Fleming, living Wimpole House, Wharton House, private investigator
has come from?
If you're able to help please finding No.11 and No.64 Wharton Road on the 1881 census to see if John P Fleming is living there/his occupation or if being used by the military and if property is called Wimpole House that would be appreciated and time to close the case.
Found out so much just by looking up 'Wimpole House Wharton Road' on British Newspaper Archives then other research followed.
There are so many John Flemings/John P Flemings could be any one of them?
Best find from little evidence, 'great-grandfather (no name) lived next door to Bevans Inn on the green with his widowed aunt (last name given) - looked up Bevans Inn, no inn with that name, looked for Bevans family working in another named pub and found, with widowed aunt and niece living next door as family remembered - and with help the nephew/great-grandfather was found with widowed aunt still living by the pub in previous census.
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Occupant of 11 Wharton Road in 1881 was Spanish civil engineer Louis de Bejar and family.
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Occupant of 11 Wharton Road in 1881 was Spanish civil engineer Louis de Bejar and family.
Thank you, the rest of Wharton Road seems to have disappeared, any ideas how to find please for No.64 - looked either side of the image to see if even numbers were done after but no luck yet?
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No I couldn't see 64 in the 1881 census either.
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According to this OS map, Wharton Road did not exist in 1882*:
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/531500/181500/10/100910
The area seems to be undeveloped. Netherwood Road appears to be there though it is not named on that map. I am not sure if the dates of the maps are accurate, or how the development occurred so that your chap is living at an address there is 1883.
Even considering the possibility that Wimpole House may have been a large sole dwelling which was developed around, there don't appear to be any houses at all in that area on the 1882 map.
Have a look for yourself because I am unsure if I am reading the map correctly.
Looking through the other dated maps on old-maps.uk you can get an idea when Wharton Road appeared, though there is not enough detail to see any individual numbers or names of houses.
One suggestion is to look "up and down the street" where you have found the address on any census. You may be able to determine it's location through locating any landmarks. Looking at the numbers of residents may indicate the size of the dwelling.
*link does not seem to open on the 1882 map - so you might need to scroll down to locate the 1882 map and adjust zoom levels.
Added: this seems to be the same or similar to the second map posted below by Shaun as his reply #10, and his is much clearer.
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Wharton Road as surveyed in 1893-4 - in the centre of this map view: https://maps.nls.uk/view/101919825#zoom=4&lat=5797&lon=5933&layers=BT
Not there in 1874: https://maps.nls.uk/view/102345961#zoom=6&lat=3026&lon=9923&layers=BT
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Wharton Road as surveyed in 1893-4 - in the centre of this map view: https://maps.nls.uk/view/101919825#zoom=4&lat=5797&lon=5933&layers=BT
Not there in 1874: https://maps.nls.uk/view/102345961#zoom=6&lat=3026&lon=9923&layers=BT
I thought that the road just below the brickfield in the 1874 map (surveyed 1866 apparently) might be Netherwood Road.
There are some gaps in the housing along Wharton Road in the old maps. Looking along the street today, the houses look original with a strip of later builds in a section to the NE end. (Possibly due to bomb damage?) Style of the houses indicate residential use rather than being any kind of institution, however they may be large enough to have housed a (small) training establishment.
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This is 64 Wharton Road https://goo.gl/maps/qvwitN8Lq3aBggeJ6 now 64 Lakeside Road
Number is on the blue door.
Numbers on the map at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/523671/179458/13/101329
This is where No. 11 would have been https://goo.gl/maps/NzfNELQweKcUh6gF6
Stan
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Looking at the newspaper ads, the earliest address we have for Capt D'arbois and his military school is 47 Talbot Road in March/April 1882. He then moves to Colville Mansions, Powis Terrace, Talbot Road in April 1882, then to Wimpole House in late 1883.
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If you look for Charles D'arbois in the 1871 census, you'll find him in Prittlewell Essex, with wife Marion, 32 born London, and brother-in-law John Fleming,28 born London, a poulterer.
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This is 64 Wharton Road https://goo.gl/maps/qvwitN8Lq3aBggeJ6 now 64 Lakeside Road
Number is on the blue door.
Numbers on the map at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/523671/179458/13/101329
This is where No. 11 would have been https://goo.gl/maps/NzfNELQweKcUh6gF6
Stan
Very good Stan. I see that No 64 is substantially larger than the other houses. Not so No 11 though.
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Thank you all VERY much!
Case closed, except for John Fleming, need to hear back about where he comes from on documents.
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No I couldn't see 64 in the 1881 census either.
On the 1881 census for Wharton Road it does indicate building work going on
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John Fleming was the brother in law of d'Arblais per the 1871 census. But d'Arblais' wife was Marion Kelly. You may need to get the 1866 marriage certificate to help figure it out.
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John Fleming was the brother in law of d'Arblais per the 1871 census. But d'Arblais' wife was Marion Kelly. You may need to get the 1866 marriage certificate to help figure it out.
Sorry I can't call up the 1871 you are referring to, please could you give me some dates/places/references, thank you
Marion Kelly
d'Arblais
John Fleming
If d'Arblais was previously married would John Fleming still be his brother-in-law if his sister has died?
Or d'Arblais has a sister who married John Fleming
So is John a private investigator - or not?
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See reply #15
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Here's 1871 on familysearch: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFFP-YDV
Apologies for referring to d'Arbois as d'Arblais - adding to the confusion !
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'Poulterer', dealer in Poultry & Game...
Can you please tell us where the info. about being a 'Private Investigator' was found as I'm intrigued?
Annie
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If you look for Charles D'arbois in the 1871 census, you'll find him in Prittlewell Essex, with wife Marion, 32 born London, and brother-in-law John Fleming,28 born London, a poulterer.
Sorry just seen this post.
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Here's 1871 on familysearch: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFFP-YDV
Apologies for referring to d'Arbois as d'Arblais - adding to the confusion !
No probs!
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'Poulterer', dealer in Poultry & Game...
Can you please tell us where the info. about being a 'Private Investigator' was found as I'm intrigued?
Annie
Waiting to hear back where this idea came from / what documents on particularly being 1883 and not a census year
Otherwise been led on a wild goose chase, or in this case chicken chase!