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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Deb Clark Rennie on Saturday 06 July 19 08:40 BST (UK)
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I’m hoping maybe some fresh eyes on this might help me solve a family mystery.
My paternal Great Grandparents were both illegitimate and therefore we don’t know who their fathers were. My dad, myself and several of dads cousins have all done DNA in the hopes someone might pop up as a potential ancestor.
We all have a match to a lady called Dianne and I’ve been in touch with her daughter for some time now as she managers her mothers DNA. Dianne matches to all of us only we can’t work out how so we feel this is where one of our missing ancestors might be only trouble is I think Dianne’s grandfather is also illegitimate and Dianne’s daughter recently found some documents her mother had which confirms this I believe, so if I can work out more of who Dianne’s grandfather is it might help solve the mystery.
The only thing our family and Dianne’s seem to have in common is a military family and India. My Great Grandmother Daisy Wade was the illegitimate daughter of Isabella Wade she was born in Maida Vale London in 1890 the address on her birth certificate is where her great uncle resided and where Isabella was sent during her pregnancy. Isabella was born in India to Frederick and Harriet Wade ... Frederick being a colour sergeant with the 60th Royal Rifles. We don’t know if Daisy knew her father’s identity or not but when asked she said he was a soldier or she mentions a connection with India.
Dianne’s Grandfather was Alfred Saunders Francis and he married Ellen Woolner in 1898 in India he was with the Army Ordinance but died in India just after the birth of his son Albert Saunders Francis (Dianne’s father) in 1900 problem is I can’t find any surviving military records that give us any clues to Alfred, on his marriage to Ellen he gives father as Albert Francis which I don’t think is true. My thoughts were he was the illegitimate son of Eliza Francis born 1868 in Leiden and this is the birth record Dianne had among the papers (no father listed)she has along with a death certificate for a Felix Francis. At first I though oh maybe Felix is Eliza’s father but I found him on the census and according to his will he was unmarried and had no children. I also believe Eliza had a second son born in 1867 called Alfred Saunders Francis and I have his baptism record. I’ve looked and looked at this and I can not find Eliza and her boys on any census records so I’m starting to wonder if perhaps she lied about her surname. What I also noticed was on the 1871 census record for Felix Francis in Colchester Essex is just up from him as a cook is an Elizabeth Saunders ... so my head started to wonder if she was the boys mother and gave her name as Francis so her boys would have a surname of their potential father. Only thing is where are the boys in 1871 I can’t find either of them.
I know it all sounds rather confusing but I can’t work out where these boys are or for sure who Eliza Francis is if indeed she is Eliza Francis ... if I can figure this out it might help Dianne and I work out how we are related. Originally I thought her grandfather could be Daisy’s dad but I saw a DNA genealogist and she felt it wasn’t quite enough DNA shared so could be a sibling or another relative close to her grandfather we are looking for. I made a Francis family tree so I could explore all the possibilities which is on ancestry as well as my own.
I just need some fresh eyes to see who Eliza Francis is how she might be attached to Felix Francis and where were they during the census.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Deb
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I'll try to cut down & date-order this. I'll modify as I go.
YOUR Family.
WADE, DAISY ISABEL - 1890 D Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 555
Her mum being Isabella Wade
Is this Isabella in 1881 ? (Kingston, Surrey)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q277-YG6B
WADE, CHARLES EDWIN EDWEN 1874 D Quarter in KINGSTON Volume 02A Page 279
WADE, ALICE EDWEN 1874 D Quarter in KINGSTON Volume 02A Page 279
WADE, WILLIAM HENRY EDWIN 1876 D/Qtr in KINGSTON Volume 02A Page 312
Dianne's family:
Marriage 18 May 1898 @ Peshawar, Bengal, India
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJT-B8X
Ellen's re-marriage in 1902.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJ6-NB7?from=lynx1UIV8&treeref=MH7V-VJ3
Ellen (Maria) Woolner's baptism:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG8L-H45?from=lynx1UIV8&treeref=MH7V-VJ3
" My thoughts were he (Alfred Saunders Francis) was the illegitimate son of Eliza Francis born 1868 in Leiden (In the Netherlands)? and this is the birth record Dianne had among the papers (no father listed) she has along with a death certificate for a Felix Francis (any age/date/place on that)? "
Pauline
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Thank you ... I tried uploading the certificates for Alfred and Felix Francis but they are too large
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1. You should never post copies of complete certificates! Mainly due to Copyright Law.
It's also against RootsChat's guidelines for posting.
So, take a snippet of the relevant information (I use the Windows Snipping Tool) and post that.
2. Re-size your image if it's too large.
I use IrfanView for photos and images. I can resize to 50%, or 20%, or whatever, to get a manageable size.
P.S. Other software may be available ;D
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Tha is for the tip I only have an iPad so am trying to figure a way to do that
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Unless you are having trouble deciphering, then a transcription is easier to work from.
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I'll try to cut down & date-order this. I'll modify as I go.
YOUR Family.
WADE, DAISY ISABEL - 1890 D Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 555
Her mum being Isabella Wade
Is this Isabella in 1881 ? (Kingston, Surrey)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q277-YG6B
WADE, CHARLES EDWIN EDWEN 1874 D Quarter in KINGSTON Volume 02A Page 279
WADE, ALICE EDWEN 1874 D Quarter in KINGSTON Volume 02A Page 279
WADE, WILLIAM HENRY EDWIN 1876 D/Qtr in KINGSTON Volume 02A Page 312
Dianne's family:
Marriage 18 May 1898 @ Peshawar, Bengal, India
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGJT-B8X
Yes this is the right family ... Daisy was mostly raised by her grandparents.
Dianne’s father was born in 1899 in Madras son of Alfred Saunders Francis and Ellen Woolner. Our DNA match to Dianne is not via Woolner side and Dianne does not match to the Wades it she matches to all of Daisy’s descendants ... Daisy’s husband Ted Clark was also illegitimate but he’s from Rodborough and has no India connection that I know of so I tend to sway more towards Daisy’s potential father’s side.
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Tha is for the tip I only have an iPad so am trying to figure a way to do that
ADDED: 3. Never use an iPad! ;D ;D ;D
(I don't own/use any Apple products! ;))
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" My thoughts were he (Alfred Saunders Francis) was the illegitimate son of Eliza Francis born 1868 in Leiden (In the Netherlands)? and this is the birth record Dianne had among the papers (no father listed) she has along with a death certificate for a Felix Francis (any age/date/place on that)? "
FRANCIS, ALFRED SANDERS -
GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in LEXDEN & WINSTREE UNION Volume 04A Page 314
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FRANCIS, ALBERT SANDERS -
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in POPLAR UNION Volume 01C Page 620
This one is baptised as illegitimate son of Eliza FRANCIS
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Oops Lexdon ;D yes
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I think it’s possible Albert and Alfred are brothers both born to an Eliza and the name Saunders Francis or Sanders Francis.
I just can’t find them on the census records. I can’t find an Eliza Francis that fits it’s been giving me quite the brain drain for some time.
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" My thoughts were he (Alfred Saunders Francis) was the illegitimate son of Eliza Francis born 1868 in Leiden (In the Netherlands)? and this is the birth record Dianne had among the papers (no father listed) she has along with a death certificate for a Felix Francis (any age/date/place on that)? "
FRANCIS, ALFRED SANDERS -
GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in LEXDEN & WINSTREE UNION Volume 04A Page 314
This is the birth certificate that Dianne has among her papers. As they migrated to New Zealand it’s possible they needed documents to support their migration?
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Right, You've not answered when/where this FELIX Francis death cert was issued.
1871 census (an attorney from Colchester) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFFY-Q3N
1861 census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7HW-DN7
1851 a law student. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGVF-1P5
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Have either of you bought Felix’s will? (Died 1872)
Or the 1893 one of the brother Carrington FRANCIS
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Right, You've not answered when/where this FELIX Francis death cert was issued.
1871 census (an attorney from Colchester) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFFY-Q3N
1861 census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7HW-DN7
1851 a law student. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGVF-1P5
It’s says Felix Francis was 45 years old he was a solicitor and death registered 24th feb 1872 brother F Phillip Francis present Colchester Essex
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Have either of you bought Felix’s will? (Died 1872)
Or the 1893 one of the brother Carrington FRANCIS
No I haven’t I saw that Felix left it all to his brother Carrington so maybe Carringtons might hold some clues but I’ve never bought a will before how does one go about doing that.
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The bit you can see in the Probate Index just tells you Carrington was an executor. Not who were the beneficiaries.
Go to https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills.
They cost £10 and a link is emailed to you, then you download. Very satisfying! 😀
If Dianne’s family have his death certificate among their papers from some time ago there must be a reason.
It would be interesting to know when it was issued,
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How exactly. Is Alfred’s birth cert set out?
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The bit you can see in the Probate Index just tells you Carrington was an executor. Not who were the beneficiaries.
Go to https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills.
They cost £10 and a link is emailed to you, then you download. Very satisfying! 😀
If Dianne’s family have his death certificate among their papers from some time ago there must be a reason.
It would be interesting to know when it was issued,
I hadn’t thought of checking the date of issue .... I checked it’s august 1928 wonder if that coincides with their migration will check.
I didn’t know that about the wills I will email Dianne’s daughter Jennifer and recommend she perhaps order it. I also suggested she pay for some research to see what might be found on her Grandfather via Army Ordinance as I know vis my own Joseph Wade if they died in service quite often their records were destroyed but as I knew the regiment we found the muster rolls.
Blessings
Deb
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I’d hold off on paying a researcher until the rootschatters have had a good go.
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How exactly. Is Alfred’s birth cert set out?
OK, I’ve seen it on your tree
Alfred Sanders. No father, mother Eliza Francis signs with her mark , address Boxted.
So...she cannot possibly be closely related to Felix ..surely, given the level of education in that family.
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I hadn’t thought of checking the date of issue .... I checked it’s august 1928 wonder if that coincides with their migration will check.
Looking at shipping lists, the son of Alfred Saunders Francis and Ellen Woolner was Albert Saunders Francis. Born India 1899
He hyphenated it to Saunders-Francis
Two children born 1932 England and 1933 India
And in 1937 Albert’s wife is only 22. So, the death certificate of Felix was obtained long before he even married, and before migrating to NZ.
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How exactly. Is Alfred’s birth cert set out?
OK, I’ve seen it on your tree
Alfred Sanders. No father, mother Eliza Francis signs with her mark , address Boxted.
So...she cannot possibly be closely related to Felix ..surely, given the level of education in that family.
No I agree it makes no sense ... and who is she? There is no Eliza Francis that fits and I can’t find any of them together. And why does Dianne have Felix death certificate? I’ve been spinning my wheels on this for awhile which is why I wondered if Felix could have fathered one of the boys? And is Eliza ... Elizabeth Saunders? If only I could find Alfred and Albert on a census. Alfred was educated so where did he go to school? So frustrating. And Eliza gives no address on the birth certificate either.
Blessings
Deb
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There is another Indian connection.
Albert Saunders Francis b 1899 married in India to (Gertrude) Agnes CROFT. Abt 1914/15. Daughter of Alexander CROFT.
Edited to add...although it’s hard to see how she ended up in India. Her father is a house painter in Liverpool
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There is another Indian connection.
Albert Saunders Francis b 1899 married in India to (Gertrude) Agnes CROFT. Abt 1914/15. Daughter of Alexander CROFT.
Yes this is Alfred’s son and Dianne’s father
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I hadn’t thought of checking the date of issue .... I checked it’s august 1928 wonder if that coincides with their migration will check.
Looking at shipping lists, the son of Alfred Saunders Francis and Ellen Woolner was Albert Saunders Francis. Born India 1899
He hyphenated it to Saunders-Francis
Two children born 1932 England and 1933 India
And in 1937 Albert’s wife is only 22. So, the death certificate of Felix was obtained long before he even married, and before migrating to NZ.
I wondered if it was Albert was the one to order the death certificate perhaps he was looking for answers? I just don’t know I will ask Dianne’s daughter again if she knows why her mum has the certificate.
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FRANCIS, ALBERT SANDERS -
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in POPLAR UNION Volume 01C Page 620
This one is baptised as illegitimate son of Eliza FRANCIS
Yes that is why I think he is Alfred’s brother as it’s very similar
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When Alfred died (Dec 1900). He was Staff Sergeant in The Ordnance Department in Poonamalee.
So...which regiments were there then?
Added, and Store Sergeant at baptism of Albert. (Catholic Baptism)
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FRANCIS, ALBERT SANDERS -
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in POPLAR UNION Volume 01C Page 620
This one is baptised as illegitimate son of Eliza FRANCIS
FRANCIS, ALFRED SANDERS -
GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in LEXDEN & WINSTREE UNION Volume 04A Page 314
If we go with the idea that Eliza was a SAUNDERS/SANDERS and just borrowing the name FRANCIS then Albert may have died at Boxted in 1868.
Albert Francis SANDERS
Age: 14 months
Burial Date: 31 May 1868
Burial Place: Boxted, St Peter, Essex, England
May also just be a coincidence.
Debra :)
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Is this Eliza and Alfred in 1871?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRNQ-3WY
Class: RG10; Piece: 594; Folio: 99; Page: 24
Debra :)
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Is this Eliza and Alfred in 1871?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRNQ-3WY
Class: RG10; Piece: 594; Folio: 99; Page: 24
Debra :)
Well found. It certainly looks like them.
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Is this Eliza and Alfred in 1871?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRNQ-3WY
Class: RG10; Piece: 594; Folio: 99; Page: 24
Debra :)
Oh gosh! You’re a genius I’ve looked and looked it certainly does look like them back to the Colchester link ... who is Eliza? At least this gives an idea of her age.
Blessings
Deb
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FRANCIS, ALBERT SANDERS -
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in POPLAR UNION Volume 01C Page 620
This one is baptised as illegitimate son of Eliza FRANCIS
FRANCIS, ALFRED SANDERS -
GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in LEXDEN & WINSTREE UNION Volume 04A Page 314
If we go with the idea that Eliza was a SAUNDERS/SANDERS and just borrowing the name FRANCIS then Albert may have died at Boxted in 1868.
Albert Francis SANDERS
Age: 14 months
Burial Date: 31 May 1868
Burial Place: Boxted, St Peter, Essex, England
May also just be a coincidence.
Debra :)
Oh it could well be couldn’t it. So that could can any idea that he may have been Daisy’s father but it now helps me focus on working out who Eliza is as perhaps our ancestry is either to do with her or the father’s side of her son. If nothing else would be lovely for Dianne to get some answers.
Blessings
Deb
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When Alfred died (Dec 1900). He was Staff Sergeant in The Ordnance Department in Poonamalee.
So...which regiments were there then?
Added, and Store Sergeant at baptism of Albert. (Catholic Baptism)
I recall in a more recent message from Jenny (Dianne’s daughter) that her mother thought before Army Ordinance he may have been with a Bedford Regiment which I don’t know anything about.must look into that.
Deb
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Is this Eliza and Alfred in 1871?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRNQ-3WY
Class: RG10; Piece: 594; Folio: 99; Page: 24
Debra :)
This could also be a coincidence but trees with Felix Francis have his grandmother as Sarah Wallis which the surname of the person above Eliza in that census is Wallis?
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I think she is probably the eldest daughter of Eliza TOTHAM and Israel SAUNDERS. She is at home in Colchester in 1851 and in 1861 she is in the home of William GRIFFIN as a servant and also there as housekeeper is the person that I think is her grandmother, Eliza TOTHAM.
Debra :)
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Another possibility perhaps (birth year 2 years different from 1871 record)?
Birth:
FRANCIS, ELIZA no MMN recorded-
GRO Reference: 1845 J Quarter in COLCHESTER UNION Volume 12 Page 66
possible 1851 census:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGV6-T7C
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I think she is probably the eldest daughter of Eliza TOTHAM and Israel SAUNDERS. She is at home in Colchester in 1851 and in 1861 she is in the home of William GRIFFIN as a servant and also there as housekeeper is the person that I think is her grandmother, Eliza TOTHAM.
Debra :)
But Eliza is down as unmarried in that 1871. If she was pretending to be FRANCIS wouldn’t she be saying she was widowed?
I think more likely the father of the boys is Mr SA(U)NDERS
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Eliza Francis b.31/3/1846 (should be 1845), bp.5/9/1852 St. Botolph, Colchester, dau. of Mary Ann.
Mary Ann Francis b.11/4/1848, ditto ditto ditto
Mary Ann Francis shown as born Ardleigh on 1851 census:
Baptisms at Ardleigh
Mary Ann Francis bp.16/5/1823, dau. of John and Mary
Harriet Francis bp.1/10/1826 ditto
Frederick Francis, bp.4/8/1831, son of John and Mary
Mahala Francis, bp.14/4/1833, dau. ditto
John Francis bp.228/5/1835 son of ditto
James Francis bc.1837 ditto
David Francis bp.9/3/1841 ditto
John Francis married Mary Watcham 6/5/1823 Ardleigh
Annette
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Thank you so much everyone for your help and ideas it’s certainly difficult to work out especially if Eliza is covering her identity. It still is odd that Dianne’s father must have ordered the death certificate for Felix Francis, I also checked the date of the copy of the birth certificate which I re checked when that was issued and it looks like 22nd of August 1928. Perhaps Alfred’s son Albert ordered these when trying to work out his father’s identity. Or did he need them himself? I will try some of the names mentioned to re check against Dianne’s DNA. I know how frustrating it is for me not knowing the identity of 3 of my GG Grandfathers it must be even more frustrating for Dianne not knowing who her great grandparents were.