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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => Topic started by: zenobia37 on Sunday 07 July 19 15:52 BST (UK)
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Hi all
Does anyone have experience of requesting death certificates from the US, specifically Hudson Falls in New York State? I am considering requesting a certificate in the hope of finding out the decedent's maiden name and date and place of birth, but she died a widow and childless and I'm not optimistic about that information being recorded on the certificate. Does anyone know if it's likely to record that?
I have emailed the local city clerk's office for what I think is the right registration district, but I'm not certain they'll have it and an application to the state office will apparently take 8 months to be processed. It's all quite difficult to navigate.
Thanks,
Zen
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New York state death certificates typically have a maiden name and parents' names, but it depends on what the informant knew. I have seen it listed as Unknown.
I would try to go through the town if possible, as the state takes a very long time (I'm hearing more than 8 months these days). If you don't get a response from your e-mail to the town within a week or so, you might want to try calling during normal business hours.
If you want to give further information about her, I can take a look and see if I can find another source for any additional clues.
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Thanks very much, that gives me some hope!
The woman I'm looking at was known by the name Charlotte Potter but part of the problem is that she was inconsistent in what she claimed about her age and place of birth; that's what I'm trying to find. Also I can't find a record of her having ever married her 'husband' Newsome Scott Potter.
I can be fairly sure Charlotte was born in England. She claimed to have been born in Brighton in 1830 or Halesworth, Suffolk in 1820, at different points. She met Newsome, who was English, in around 1860 (not sure where) and they lived as a couple in Hohokus in about 1870 before returning to England for a while.
They later settled in Sandy Hill, Glen Falls, from 1880 to 1899. During that period Newsome put in a patent application for a machine and is recorded in various directories, but in 1899 they returned to England again, where Newsome died. Charlotte subsequently travelled back to Sandy Hill on the SS Umbria arriving in April 1899, and so it seems likely she died there.
I have now managed to find a possible burial record for her; if it is her, she died on 12th November 1904 at Sandy Hill and I think is buried at Union Cemetery, near Glen Falls.
I know its a long shot but my best bet of finding out who she really was seems to be the death record. However if you can suggest any other ideas I would be grateful for any ideas.
Thanks for your reply
Zen
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I have now managed to find a possible burial record for her; if it is her, she died on 12th November 1904 at Sandy Hill and I think is buried at Union Cemetery, near Glen Falls.
The Morning Star
November 14, 1904
pg. 4
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This would be the nephew Edward C. Smith along with the other nephews mentioned in the obit.
1880 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZN8-WLK
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Father of Edward Smith (above) Henry Smith buried in the same cemetery as Charlotte Potter -
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/165414655/charlott-potter
Union Cemetery Fort Edward, Washington County, New York.
Plot Section 4, Row 33
FIND A GRAVE
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/177799385/henry-smith#view-photo=184569190
Union Cemetery Fort Edward, Washington County, New York.
Plot Section 4 - Row 33
Mary Smith - 1829 - 1904 -
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/177998173/mary-ann-smith
Emma Smith -
Union Cemetery Fort Edward, Washington County, New York.
Plot Section 4 - Row 33
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/177791373
George D Smith - 1854 - 1912
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/70477133/george-d-smith
James H Smith 1848 - 1909
Union Cemetery Fort Edward, Washington County, New York.
Plot Section 10 - Row 89
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/177799636/james-h_-smith
daughter Lottie Clary - https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/40395523
Sandra
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1860 census Kingsbury, Washington, New York
Stephen Robins 30
Sarah Robins 27
R H Robins 6
Henry Smith 40 Mary A Smith 33
James Smith 12 Mariah Smith 10
Henry Smith 8 Geo D Smith 6
John H Smith 3 Emma Smith 8 months
One of the Smith births...............
Mariah Smith - mothers maiden name Sparks
GRO Reference: 1852 M Quarter in Bethnal Green Volume 01C Page 308
There was also a James Robert Smith - mothers maiden surname Sparks
GRO Reference: 1846 J Quarter in St James Clerkenwell Volume 03 Page 113
and Henry George Smith - mothers maiden surname Sparks
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in Taunton Volume 05C Page 449
Sandra
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Oh my gosh, thanks very much to you all, that's so interesting! I had been under the impression that Charlotte was very much on her own, not that she had family in the States, but it is totally possible that she had other family there with her. Maybe that's why she and Newsome went to live there in the first place, and/or why she returned there after his death. I'm not absolutely certain this is the same Charlotte but it does seem likely. Now I have a lot more to go on I will see whether I can tie it in with the information I have and establish more about her birth.
Thanks very much, I really appreciate it.
Zen
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Might not mean anything but there was a marriage in Clerkenwell - registered March 1845 of a Harry Smith and a Mary Ann Melvin - Clerkenwell - 3 - 68 - maybe worth looking at. (matches first birth of James Robert Smith - st James Clerkenwell )
Sandra
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but it is totally possible that she had other family there with her. Maybe that's why she and Newsome went to live there in the first place, and/or why she returned there after his death. I'm not absolutely certain this is the same Charlotte but it does seem likely.
Just want to confirm the proper relationships and not guess or assume.
Charlotte's obit only mentioned the names as her nephews & a niece. They could be her brother's children or they could be her sister's children.
Below is Mary A Smith's obit. She died earlier that same year. Besides the children, the obit mentions one sister, "Mrs. N.S. Potter" all of this place. So Mary & Charlotte were sisters. And the obit also confirms this is the right Charlotte, who was married to Newsome Scott Potter, - "Mrs. N.S. Potter".
The Morning Star
Febuary 27, 1904
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They later settled in Sandy Hill, Glen Falls, from 1880 to 1899. During that period Newsome put in a patent application for a machine and is recorded in various directories, but in 1899 they returned to England again, where Newsome died. Charlotte subsequently travelled back to Sandy Hill on the SS Umbria arriving in April 1899, and so it seems likely she died there.
Local gossip.
It appears Newsome & Charlotte must have been back in England in 1885. They sent their nephew John a gift.
Glen Falls Daily Times
Wednesday December 16, 1885
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1860 census Kingsbury, Washington, New York
Stephen Robins 30
Sarah Robins 27
R H Robins 6
Henry Smith 40 Mary A Smith 33
James Smith 12 Mariah Smith 10
Henry Smith 8 Geo D Smith 6
John H Smith 3 Emma Smith 8 months
One of the Smith births...............
Mariah Smith - mothers maiden name Sparks
GRO Reference: 1852 M Quarter in Bethnal Green Volume 01C Page 308
There was also a James Robert Smith - mothers maiden surname Sparks
GRO Reference: 1846 J Quarter in St James Clerkenwell Volume 03 Page 113
and Henry George Smith - mothers maiden surname Sparks
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in Taunton Volume 05C Page 449
Sandra
Bearing in mind some of the birth records for the Smith children - Food for thought ..............
1841 census Bethnal Green Middlesex
HO107 Piece 692 Book 10 Civil Parish Bethnal Green County: Middlesex Enumeration District 25 Folio 36 Page: 26 Line 10
Elizabeth Sparks 40
Elizabeth Sparks 15
Martha Sparks 13
Mary Sparks 11 born Middlesex Charlotte Sparks 9 born Middlesex
Thomas Sparks 4
Maria Sparks 14 Months.
Sandra
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1851 census Bethnal Green Middlesex. (Mary should be married by this point)
HO107 Piece 1541 Folio 180 Page 23
Martha Sales 94 born 1757 Bethnal Green, Middlesex.
Elizabeth Sparks 50 born 1801 Whitechapel, Middlesex.
Charlotte Sparks 21 born 1830 Whitechapel Middlesex. Grand-daughter.
Thomas Sparks 14 born 1837 Whitechapel, Middlesex.
Thomas Watkins 15 born 1836 Whitechapel, Middlesex.
Of course "Murphys Law" could be barking up the wrong tree :-\
Sandra
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Thanks all, I had a look at the newspaper a bit further too but I hadn't seen the entry about the gift from England. Clearly this is the right Charlotte which is such a huge step forward. I've been stuck on this 'brick wall' for several years until yesterday!
It's the Sparks name and the Middlesex connection that I'm less convinced about and I found another possibility in Suffolk yesterday which seems more plausible to me given that Charlotte also claimed to be from Suffolk so I'm going to look at that a bit further as well as the Sparks name. I agree the Sparks option seems to be the only one for a "Mariah", but it wouldn't be uncommon for that to have been misspelled as Maria in England at some point which opens up various other possibilities. Unfortunately the prevalence of the Smith name means there's a lot to look at. If I do crack it I will confirm.
I did get a quick response from the City Clerk who was able to confirm they didn't have the death certificate but suggested some other clerks to contact too, so I may yet resort to that.
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it seems that Charlotte and Mary Ann's maiden name may have been Cady. There is a photograph of Mary Ann on Ancestry under that name and baptisms in Suffolk that seem to tie up.
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Great - Fits with the June 1847 regsisted marriage of a Henry Smith and Mary Ann Cady. Blything volume 13page 627
Sandra
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Lovely to put a face to a name with a photograph. No positive sources for the births of the Smith children in England :-\
Don't think Mary Ann Cady was born in Yorkshire as per anc tree. There are two Halesworth, more likely to be the Suffolk one
Sandra
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The website for the Town of Kingsbury, in which the village of Hudson Falls (formerly Sandy Hill) is located, says that the town clerk in Kingsbury has the death records issued by Hudson Falls too. So that would be the office to contact to get a copy of Charlotte’s death certificate.
http://www.kingsburyny.gov/clerk.html
FYI, a Town in New York is equivalent to a township in most other states.
Steve
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Probably means there was more Smith family in the USA.
Smith's on a passenger list to New York on the G B Lamar 1855 - including Henry 36 years (son)- Mary Ann 28 years - James 6 years - Maria 4 years - Henry 2 years - and 2 names above Henry were Ann Smith aged 74 years (mother) and Ann Smith aged 34 years (daughter) - ???
There were other Smith listed below them - could they be more relatives ??? Those names were Wm Smith aged 32 years - Lucy aged 30 years - Mary Smith aged 4 years - John Smith aged 1 year - David inf - Ann Inf
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:27RH-6VS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939V-RQ7Q-K?i=177&cc=1849782
Sandra
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Same names - 1860 census Kingsbury, Washington, New York.
William Smith 38 born Eng.
Lucy Smith 36 born Eng.
Mary Smith 11 born Eng.
John Smith 7 born Eng.
Mariah Smith 6 born Eng.
James Smith 3 born NY
Eliza Smith 2 born NY
Hattie Smith 3 months. born NY.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCQP-1SW
and Henry Smith and family shown in reply 6 - living in the same place.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCQP-BHH
Sandra
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1870 census Kingsbury, Washington, New York. Lucy is widowed.
Lucy Smith 46 born Eng.
John Smith 17 born Eng. Works in paper mill.
Mary Smith 20 born Eng. Works in paper mill.
James Smith 14 born NY.
Hattie Smith 10 born NY.
Walter Smith 8 born NY.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M829-QLH
FIND A GRAVE
William Smith
Union Cemetery Fort Edward, Washington County, New York.
Plot Section 6 - Row 104
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/177993902/william-smith
1st June 1875 census Kingsbury, Washington, New York.
Lucy Smith 52
John Smith 22
James Smith 18
Hattie Smith 15
Walter Smith 12
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VNV7-PR7
Mary Smith/Greer - 1849 - 1920
Masonville Cemetery Masonville, Delaware County, New York.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/94428299
husband Donaldson Greer - 1850 - 1910
Masonville Cemetery Masonville, Delaware County, New York.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/94428136/donaldson-greer
Sandra
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1880 Kingsbury, Washington, New York. This shows the mother Ann Smith living with them.
Luce Smith 56 born Eng. Widowed.
John W. Smith 27
James E. Smith 24
Hattie Smith 20
Walter Smith 18
Ann Smith 99 born Eng. Widowed.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZN8-KYF
U.S. Federal Census - 1880 Schedules of Defective, Dependent, and Delinquent Classes - Ann Smith
Sandy Hill Washington New York Previous Residence Kingsbury, Washington.
Enumeration Date Jun 1880 Enumeration District 151 Schedule Type Deaf-Mutes.
1900 census Coleman Avenue Kingsbury, Washington, New York.
Lucy Smith 75
John W Smith 47
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MSG1-DT1
FIND A GRAVE
Lucy Finch Smith - 1824 - 1907
Union Cemetery Fort Edward, Washington County, New York.
Plot Section 6 - Row 104
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/177993848
Daughter Maria 1862 -1877
Union Cemetery Fort Edward, Washington County, New York.
Plot Section 6 - Row 104
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/177997565/maria-smith
FIND A GRAVE
Walter Smith 1862 - 5 November 1902
Union Cemetery Fort Edward, Washington County, New York.
Plot Section 6 - Row 104
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/178002321/walter-c_-smith
Sandra
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Back to the mother Ann Smith in 1860 Kingsbury, Washington, New York.
James Smith 53 born Eng. Day Labourer.
Mary Ann Smith 52 born Eng. Housekeeper.
Ann Smith 78
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MCQP-BQ4
1855 census Kingsbury, Washington, New York.
James Smith 47 born Eng. Labourer.
Mary A Smith 45 born Eng. Wife.
Ann Smith 33 born Eng. Sister.
1875 Kingsbury, Washington, New York.
James Smith 67 born Eng. Works in paper mill.
Mary Smith 65 born Eng.
Eliza Smith 17 born Washington 1858 . Niece.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VNV7-J18
1880 Kingsbury, Washington, New York.
James Smith 71 born Eng.
Mary A. Smith 70 born Eng.
Eliza Smith 20 born NY 1860.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MZN8-XSR
FIND A GRAVE
James Smith - 1808 - 1890
Union Cemetery Fort Edward, Washington County, New York.
Plot Section 6 - Row 104
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/177799573/james-smith
Mary A Smith - 1809 - 1891
Union Cemetery Fort Edward, Washington County, New York.
Plot Section 6 - Row 104
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/177998130/mary-a_-smith
Sandra
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Going back to the Blything Area of Suffolk - marriage registered December 1848 - Lucy Finch and William Smith - Volume 13 page 1009
Sandra
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Obit Lucy Finch Smith - The Post-Star Glens Falls, New York 10 Jun 1907, Mon - Page 4
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/33691941/mrs_lucy_smith_part_1/
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/33691946/lucy_smith_part_2/
Sandra