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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: kylemacca007 on Monday 08 July 19 17:18 BST (UK)
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Hi, i am currently trying to trace my family tree for the last year. I'm currently looking for my great grandfather. I'm trying to find something that would indicate his exact birth date or place.
Here's some key points i have found so far, i haven't included birth of children as I'm not sure if these will help me find what I'm after n Please also see the attachments.
Born between 11th March 1888-1890
Married 1912 - Occupation - Soldier, residing at The Barracks. (Sheffield)
I have also been able to find a few military records here's what i found...
Year of birth - 1889
Enlist date - 1/12/1910
Date of discharge - 12/2/19 (age 20)
Regtl No - 63470
Unit - Royal Field Artillery - Driver - Badge number B173101
Died at Ministry Of Pensions Hospital Chapel Alerton, Leeds.
10 June 1942 Age 53.
Cause of death - Carcinoma of lungs resulting from inhalation of nerve irritant gas inhaled on war service.
I believe some of his military records maybe part of the burnt records and therefore missing. I have applied to the MOD for his service records in WW2 with the Royal Defence Corps in Ilford. I'm hoping this might indicate a birth date or place of birth.
In the mean time i wounded if i posted the documents i have manged to find already if maybe someone can spot something that maybe i am missing?
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British Army World War Medal Rolls Index Card - Thomas McDonald
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Military Pension
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Sick and wounded list
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Discharge book
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Have you looked for Thomas McDonald on the 1939 Register which should give his date of birth?
JJ
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Hi Jen.
Sorry I should have mentioned that his dob on 1939 reg is 11th March 1888. Unfortunately 1888 is in consistent with other records. Also on the 1939 register his wife an mother in law also have in correct year of birth.
With his birthday being in March I've therefore been searching in Q1 & Q2 in 1888 & 1889 unfortunately this gives me a lot of results. I don't have any indication of where he could have possibly been born.
I was hoping from the military records I've found and posted on here there might be something missing that might indicate to me an area of birth or possibly where he may have joined.
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I've been discussing this on a local forum for the Sheffield region... I hope I'm allowed to post the link...
http://pub11.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=907514572&frmid=22&msgid=1154641&cmd=show
There I have posted more information and their have been a few people that have helped me out but hinted that I post on other site where people have more of an understanding on military documents.
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Who married to & father's name & occ. on marriage cert?
Names of children in order may be a clue too?
Annie
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Hi Annie.
If you can check the link in the post above for the Sheffield indexes forum I've posted there.
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I looked at the link but far too long to look for names of children which would be best on here to save time/effort.
Annie
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Thomas Married Emily Crawford on 25th December 1912 below is a list of the children they had together...
Violet Mary McDonald
B 1913 D 1972
Thomas H McDonald
B 1914 D 1914
Thomas D McDonald
B 1917 D 1917
William Henry McDonald
B 1919 D 1987
Alice McDonald
B 1921 D 1956
Irene Fay McDonald
B 1924 D 2005
Frederick C McDonald
B 1926 D 1936
Florence M McDonald
B 1928
Alan McDonald
B 1931 D 2000
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Can you please provide the name of his father as per marriage & names of wife's parents to see if there's possibly a naming pattern in place for at least a mother if he was born illegitimate?
Annie
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Emily Crawford-
Mother Elizabeth Jane Cave.
Father Charles Henry Crawford. (Deceased)
Thomas McDonald
Father James McDonald (Deceased) (Boot maker)
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I've scoured the military records for him and regrettably there are none I can find that give his date/place of birth. It has to be said that an attestation form did ask for the place of birth but not for the date, it asked only for the age of the man.
(The "discharge" book is a hospital record from December 1917 which may be related to the undated fragment of a sick list. It puts his years of service as 9 which would mean 1908 enlistment but such records are often, understandably, in error.)
He may well have been in the barracks in Sheffield in 1911, Hillsborough Barracks had an RFA Brigade there at the time. That would have a place of birth and an age.
MaxD
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Hi Max.
Thank you.
At the time of marriage he was residing at the barracks (assumed Hillsborough) and Emily lived at Dutton Road (About half a mile away) They married at St Johns Baptist church, which is positioned right in the middle. I have searched each page on the 1911 census for Hillsborough barracks but his name doesn't appear.
How else could i get information regarding his residence at the barracks?
Thanks
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If you have looked at the Hillsborough census for 1911 and he isn't there then you've done all you can regarding his residence there. If the joining in Dec 1910 is right, then a possibility is that on 2 April 1911 (census date) he may have been stationed elsewhere (needle/haystack) and went to Hillsborough for the first time after that date.
MaxD
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I don't have much military knowledge but Dave T on Sheffield indexes has been trying to help me out with this and here's what he posted on the forum if this helps anyone...
Combining information from Medal Cards, CWGC, Military Papers (FindMyPast) and the 1911 census we have found detailed info on two wen who signed up for the RFA in November/December 1910
RFA 63464 (just 6 numbers before your Thomas) was Sidney George Sains who died in WW1. His medal card shows he arrived in France on the same day as Thomas (16.8.14). From his number we can say he signed up within 5 days before Thomas, and most probably in the same place. Sidney was born in Burnham on Crouch, Essex and in the 1911 census was an RFA Gunner in Devon, so he had been posted quite quickly after signing up.
RFA 63502 was Thomas Robert Andrews and importantly his military papers survived. He signed up in LONDON on 29 Dec 1910 (so 28 days and 32 numbers later than your Thomas) and was posted only 2 days later as a Driver to the military establishment at Seaforth (Merseyside).He was born in Fulham and was discharged on 28th March 1911.He can be found at his home in Fulham on the 1911 census.
From this we can interpolate that Thomas McDonald signed up in London on
1.12.10 and was probably very quickly posted somewhere (Hillsborough?),
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The "near numbers" technique is well known and results can be quite persuasive. Dave T has missed one interesting fact. 63470 Thomas McDonald went overseas with 43 Brigade RFA. So did 63464 Sains and a 63472 Smith and 63483 Smith. These all went with the same RFA Brigade (I didn't look for others).
Worth inserting a caveat here for the purists. Service numbers were not unique and there was, for example, another RFA man 63470 by the name of Fletcher another 63464 by the name of Clough and another 63483 by the name of Oakes. However, by concentrating on men whose records suggest they were either already serving or had already served a term one can be relatively confident which one is referred to.
I would agree that the near numbers give two men who joined at about the same time and who may have joined at the same place.
What we have from this only is that Thomas McDonald may have been living in the south of England, joined in 1910 (which we knew) and was not in Hillsborough in 1911. We are no nearer finding his place of birth I'm afraid.
MaxD
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Max.
I agree this doesn't give us a place of birth, it was slightly relevant that he signed up the South of England as sometime between 1927 & 1928 the family moved to the Bethnal Green area where the youngest to children were born. These two things have slightly focused my search in those areas. First grandchild was born in 1931 in Lambeth London and Thomas and Emily where also living in the Daganham area in 1939, all within a relatively small area.
Unfortunately a search of births for Thomas McDonald within this region during Q1/Q2 of 1888/1889 provides a long list of results.
On the 1939 register his occupation is listed as Royal Defence Company 18437 Ilford. I found it was common for ex service men to join the TA and RDC during WW2. I have this week applied to the Army Personal Office is Glasgow in hope that they have some records of this. Failing a positive result i am now completely stuck for answers.
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I do hope you get something from the WW2 records.
What the scenario is - a man from (perhaps) the south of England, joins the RFA, is in Sheffield in 1912 and having met a young lady outside the barracks, marries her. Some service records from the war but none showing positive ID. Fairly common happening (similar to me - me from Kent, joins the RA in Kent, stationed in the Midlands, met wife and married in Midlands, lucky not to have gone to war)
MaxD
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Thanks Max.
It's been bugging me for a long time that we know so little of him, he fought in WW1 and in the end that cost him his life.
I was very sad to discover that he lay with his wife and mother in law in an unmarked grave in the city cemetery.
Nothing to show for his bravery.
Once I have confirmed details of a birth for him it's my intention to get something put in place at the grave to recognise the family and the sacrifice he made.
Thanks for sharing your story.
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I have recently found a record in the 1883-1942 Royal Artillery Attestation that gives Thomas's birth place as Edinburgh, Midlothian.
I have a question regarding Thomas regiment number 63470 RFA Driver.
Records show he enlisted in 1st December 1910.
Would he have enlisted to RFA in 1910 or another regiment?
Could he have joined the army in Scotland in another regiment and been posted in Sheffield? Would 63470 have been issued to him in 1910 enlistment (if not RFA) or given to him when he joined the RFA?
Thanks
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I have recently found a record in the 1883-1942 Royal Artillery Attestation that gives Thomas's birth place as Edinburgh, Midlothian.
Which of the many Thomas MDonalds in the register is the one you are referring to. I do see a Midlothian born 1844.
Is that the one?
MaxD
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Hi Max D
His birth year is 1889.
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This is by way of a mind clearing exercise:
The attestation record for 746477 Dvr T McDonald whose former number was 63470 is a re-engagement in 1922 at the age of 33 having already served 8 years 71 days in the RFA. He is living with wife Emily Crawford in Sheffield having married her in 1912. He is working as a riveter in 1922.
63470 would have been his original number. The number system changed in 1920/21 hence he has a new number on re-enlisting. He left that engagement in 1930. He was already serving in 1914 when war broke out and was in a pre-war regular brigade so seems to have joined up yet again sometime after 1930.
In a medical register of Dec 1917, he is recorded as having served 9 years (figures in the register are not accurate to the day!) which sort of adds up to having enlisted in about 1908/09 although the Silver War Badge record says 1910 which would be more accurate. He left in 1919.
He has pension records on Ancestry Fold 3 to which I dont have access. The ones that say Royal Fusiliers are almost certainly Ancestry mis-transcriptions). These may give more information. Mcdonald - Ancestry.com (top four).
My scenario:
Joins as a regular soldier in 1910, marries in 1912. Serves through the war to 1919. Moves to Sheffield and works as a riveter. Re-joins in 1922, serves to 1930. I don't see any "other regiment" involved.
MaxD
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Date of birth of this soldier was 18 March 1889 per the MoD FoI spreadsheet 4:
746477 MC DONALD T 1889-03-18
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Date of birth of this soldier was 18 March 1889 per the MoD FoI spreadsheet 4:
746477 MC DONALD T 1889-03-18
Thank you.
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This is by way of a mind clearing exercise:
The attestation record for 746477 Dvr T McDonald whose former number was 63470 is a re-engagement in 1922 at the age of 33 having already served 8 years 71 days in the RFA. He is living with wife Emily Crawford in Sheffield having married her in 1912. He is working as a riveter in 1922.
63470 would have been his original number. The number system changed in 1920/21 hence he has a new number on re-enlisting. He left that engagement in 1930. He was already serving in 1914 when war broke out and was in a pre-war regular brigade so seems to have joined up yet again sometime after 1930.
In a medical register of Dec 1917, he is recorded as having served 9 years (figures in the register are not accurate to the day!) which sort of adds up to having enlisted in about 1908/09 although the Silver War Badge record says 1910 which would be more accurate. He left in 1919.
He has pension records on Ancestry Fold 3 to which I dont have access. The ones that say Royal Fusiliers are almost certainly Ancestry mis-transcriptions). These may give more information. Mcdonald - Ancestry.com (top four).
My scenario:
Joins as a regular soldier in 1910, marries in 1912. Serves through the war to 1919. Moves to Sheffield and works as a riveter. Re-joins in 1922, serves to 1930. I don't see any "other regiment" involved.
MaxD
Hi Max.
I would definitely agree with every you have said. I've checked all the pension records as yes all say living in Sheffield and Regiment no is 63470 RFA. I believe there is only two records that show his new number post 1922 that's the Royal Artillery Attestation. And a transcript only record I believe Shaun has found that give Thomas's birthday as 18 March 89.
I am working with another family member to trace Thomas and his family. We believe we have find the correct family living in Edinburgh, Midlothian. We are trying to establish is Thomas join up in Scotland are elsewhere. Previous interaction on this thread suggested a possible sign up in the South of England. (looking at Soilders with similar reg numbers)
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Date of birth of this soldier was 18 March 1889 per the MoD FoI spreadsheet 4:
746477 MC DONALD T 1889-03-18
This is a list of all Thomas' McDonald b Edinburgh (City) 1888 - 1889
There's only 1 who would fit as a 'possible' which would cost £7.50 to view with left over credits but you could check census records prior as Thomas isn't a common name with a McDonald surname.
Hopefully finding him in an Edinburgh census 1891/1901 & comparing names of his children with those families (if any) parents names may help?
There's only 1 born 1889 which would match the 1 Sean posted & the ref. no. on SP (scotlandspeople) is quite low too for an early qtr birth i.e. March.
The others all have middle names (assuming yours had no middle name)?
Annie
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Hi Annie,
Thanks for your help.
I have not yet come across any records to suggest our Thomas has a middle name and therefore we have already checked out the record, you have referenced.
Thomas date of birth on the record is given as 28th January 1889.
Census checks on the family show them as living in St Giles in 1891 and 1901 living in Cannongate.
Thomas appears on the 1891 and 1901 census with the family. He is not with the family on the 1911 census. Given our Thomas joined the army in 1910 he could be in army residence in 1911 , that why i'm trying to figure out where he joined.
On his marriage certificate to my great grandmother in 1912 he listed his father James as deceased boot maker, however his the James in these records has a second marriage in 1929. I've found no evidence of this James ever been a boot maker.
Records also show a marriage for the Thomas in these records marrying in 1909. One year before joining the army and three years before our Thomas is married in Sheffield.
So i have gathered all this information in a separate family tree online, I'm just waiting for some more concrete evidence before i can be sure I'm on the right track. Other than name, farthers name and year of both I'm not sure i have a match.
I have also been analyzing my ancestry DNA results, on all other sides of my grandparents lines i have DNA matches matching my tree going back as far as 5th great grandparents, but adding in the records above still cant find any matches.
Thanks again for your help
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I had found the same census which I didn't think matched with James' occ. but also the naming of his children is not helping with possible family names.
Another possible avenue, especially if he was illegitimate?
CHISHOLM THOMAS MCDONALD 1889 (Thomas McDonald Chisolm)
684/1 36 Duddingston and Portobello (Edinburgh)
Scots women often used middle names as clues to the name of the father & very often although not always, the child was brought up by their fathers' surname or took on the fathers' surname later in life.
I haven't searched the census' for the above as I have only discovered it but the ref. no. is low, indicating an early in the year birth.
Annie
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Hi Annie,
I wasn't aware mothers did this, but now you mention it there are a lot of records on Scotland's people that list two obvious surnames. I just assumed the middle name was mothers maiden name but not that it indicated a potential fathers name. I'll do a bit more digging and see what i can find.
I looked at that particular record that you sent and the birth is given as 6th Feb.
Please see father and mother image attached.
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Unfortunately they're a married couple.
Surnames as middle names can also be an indicator of mothers' maiden names or g/mothers' maiden names i.e. an open mind is needed.
What other surnames are showing in matches trees back far enough for potential ancestors other than McDonald in & around the Edinburgh area?
You may want widen the window if he joined the forces younger than he should've been or if he was a lot older than his wife he may have shaved off a few years?
I recently helped someone find an ancestor whose age on army records was about 5 years out!
Annie
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Hi Annie,
Surnames that match this set of records in the Edinburgh area are:
Milne
Drury
Fee
I have retrospectively added these people as 3rd and 4th Great Grandparents in the tree linked to my DNA results. So far haven't found any obvious matches. Yet i have found at least one obvious match on all other sides.