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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: EllyReid on Tuesday 09 July 19 16:28 BST (UK)
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Hello Everyone
My first post here so please forgive if I am in the wrong place!
I have a relative last know in 1881 census at Brompton barracks. Spent years searching worldwide and nothing.
Recently I was advised to look at some records in TNA at kew which are not online. I am a pensioner living in Newcastle upon tyne in ill health so no chance of me getting there.
I wondered if someone might do this for me please?
I will provide the record references I was told to look at and everything else I know about this person and as I said in subject would pay a reasonable fee to cover costs and time
thank you
Elly
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Elly
Warm welcome to Rootschat.
Would you like to say who he was and perhaps where he was from and his age? Another pair (or more!) of eyes may find something missed so far.
MaxD
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Yes apologies
Baptised as JOHN THOMAS DUGGLEBY Hunmanby, Yorkshire Parish Register:Baptism 27.12.1858, John Thomas Duggleby son of John & Annie, Hunmanby, Saddler. Copy on file.
GRO: Births March 1859 John Thomas Duggleby registered in Bridlington. Volume 9D page 266.
Shown on 1861 census as residing at Bridlington St, Hunmanby son aged 2 years. Born Hunmanby.
1862 brother Frederick William born
1864 Sister Lucy Ann born
1867 Grandfather dies.
1869 Father dies aged 31.
Shown on 1871 census as residing at 37 Bridlington St, Hunmanby, grandson aged 12. Born Hunmanby (making year of birth 1859) With His grandmother, Brother & sister. His Mother is a servant in Hull at this census.
1873 July Mother marries Leonard Cape.
1873 Dec Grandmother dies.
Mother moves to GillinghamKent with new hubby - 2 further children.
Shown on 1881 census as THOMAS DUGGLEBY at Maidstone barracks, Maidstone, Kent. Private, aged 21, born Brenchley, Kent. Copy on file.
His Brother in 1881 Census: Frederick William Duggleby age 19, is at School of military engineering, Brompton barracks, Kent. William goes on to serve 20 years & can be traced to his death.
His Sister in 1881 census is in Plumstead, Kent. marries and can be traced to her death.
His Mother her new hubby and 2 new children in 1881 census are in Gillingham, Kent all can be traced to their deaths.
[PRO Search for a birth certificate for Thomas Duggleby born Brenchley in 1859 - 1861 could not find anything!!!]
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Shown on 1881 census as THOMAS DUGGLEBY at Maidstone barracks, Maidstone, Kent. Private, aged 21, born Brenchley, Kent. Copy on file.
[PRO Search for a birth certificate for Thomas Duggleby born Brenchley in 1859 - 1861 could not find anything!!!]
How does John Thomas birth reg Bridlington 1859 become, in 1881, plain Thomas born Brenchley Kent?
MaxD
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Only Duggleby record that fits!
I asked GRO to do a search for a birth for Thomas Duggleby or John Thomas Duggleby and all variant spellings registered in Brenchley 1860 and they turned up nothing!
No death record for JT or T between 1871 and 1881.
Duggleby/ Dugelby and other mispselling are so few approx 220 in 1881 census.
And Fits with his Mother, brother & sister being in Kent area.
My assumption was they went with Mother & new hubby after grandmother died
Also I have done a ONS for 30 years on Duggleby and misspells worldwide so can be fairly confident with my educated guess
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Should have added hoping any army records may provide proof if this is John Thomas I think it is.
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Born late 1858
John Thomas Duggleby 27 Dec 1858
parents John Smith Duggleby and Anne
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A John Duggleby sailed to Brisbane 1886 DOB abt 1858 assisted passage
On the electoral roll in the city of Kooyong Victoria a John T Duggleby 1910s unable to see as I haven't got overseas on Ancestry.
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A John Duggleby sailed to Brisbane 1886 DOB abt 1858 assisted passage
On the electoral roll in the city of Kooyong Victoria a John T Duggleby (minister) 1910s unable to see as I haven't got overseas on Ancestry.
That looks to be a John Taylor Dugglesby in Kooylong Victoria :-\
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Elly
Travel abroad does seem a possibility. I would hate you to waste your money as I find it difficult to know what records you have been advised to investigate (have investigated). There are precious few military records of that time that, if they are at Kew, are not also on line.http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-soldiers-up-to-1913/
MaxD
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Hi
thank you for looking these up. I have already done so and the Australia one is John Taylor Duggleby. I have full info on him.
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Hello max
thank you for the advice I have extensive information re overseas travelling Dugglebys including those transported to Australia, amongst early settlers in SA, USA, Mexico, India, Canada.
I have been advised this by a researcher who is very experienced in military records
According to the Nafziger Orders of Battle Collection finding aid (free online), as at 2 April 1881 there were two regiments stationed in Maidstone.
Prior to July 1881, Maidstone was the 46th Training Depot that trained recruits for the 50th (Queen’s Own) Regiment of Foot and the 97th (Earl of Ulster’s) Regiment of Foot. From July 1881 the regiments were merged to become the 1st & 2nd Battalions respectively of the Queen’s Own Royal West Kent Regiment and the 46th Training Depot was renamed the 50th Regimental District.
Rather than already being a trained soldier, at 21 in 1881 and being at the Depot, Thomas is likely to have recently enlisted and was undergoing training prior to posting to a line battalion. So following on from my previous post about the movements of the main body of the 50th & 97th Regiments of Foot and them being re-named as above, if he continued to serve and died in service much later, it isn’t surprising you cannot trace him after 1881.
Although by 1881 soldiers attested for a short service enlistment of 12yrs (typically 7yrs with the colours, with 5 with the army reserve, some signed on for a 2nd period so it was possible for a soldier to serve over 20yrs and even if he died in last few months of service his pension died with him and no record would be preserved, so if he didn’t leave the army before 1883, then theoretically you could be looking for death in service between 1882-1900. I found nothing in the GRO Indexes to various Overseas Deaths (or a Duggleby child’s birth in case he married abroad), and as most places he served were under British control and by 1882 they would have their own registration system, so any death would be recorded in the registration system for that country, e.g. if he died in India any record should be in the India Office collection at the British Library in London or if in Malta or Ireland any record will be their BMD records.
For at least part of his service it should be possible to trace him through battalion Muster Books and Pay Lists and although details are missing, if he became non-effective, sick, wounded, transferred, deserted or died in service he would appear in regimental/battalion casualty returns.
Casualty returns themselves don’t appear to have survived but there is an Index to casualty returns for both (catalogued under original regimental names) in the National Archives, Kew, unfortunately they are not online and I have no idea how complete they are.
WO 25/3394 Index to Casualty Returns: 50 Foot; circa 1850-1910
WO 25/3445 Index to Casualty Returns: 97 Foot; circa 1850-1910
Muster Books and Pay lists for the Depot only exist from 1882 to 1884 so may not include Thomas as basic training would normally only last a month or two. For the Regiments/battalions Musters of interest only exist up to 1888; all are in document series WO 16 War Office: Muster Books and Pay Lists, sub-series Infantry; sub-series 50th Foot, 97th Foot and Royal West Kent Regiment; again none are online.
WO 16/1810 Depot (West Kent) 1882-1884
WO 16/1802 50th Foot 01 January 1880 - 31 December 1882
WO 16/2054 97th Foot 01 January 1880 - 31 December 1882
WO 16/2055 97th Foot 01 January 1880 - 31 December 1882
Other than perhaps one those should labelled “Detachment”, I’ve no idea why the dates are duplicated.
Unless he was found not likely to become an efficient soldier or left the depot for some other reason, then he should appear in one of the above after April 1881. From then it’s a case of following the trail on through the dates.
WO 16/1803 1st Battalion West Kent Regiment, 01 January 1882 - 31 December 1884
WO 16/1804 1st Battalion West Kent Regiment Detachment, 01 January 1883 - 31 December 1884
WO 16/1805 1st Battalion West Kent Regiment, 01 January 1884 - 31 December 1886
WO 16/1806 1st Battalion West Kent Regiment, 01 January 1886 - 31 December 1888
WO 16/1807 2nd Battalion West Kent Regiment, 01 January 1882 - 31 December 1884
WO 16/1808 2nd Battalion West Kent Regiment, 01 January 1884 - 31 December 1886
WO 16/1809 2nd Battalion West Kent Regiment, 01 January 1886 - 31 December 1888
If you cannot get to Kew in person you would need to employ a researcher and for checking any of the above they would charge an hourly rate, but for someone to check the early books and then those the relevant battalion from there to Dec 1888 at the latest shouldn’t take someone who regularly attends Kew more than two hours.
The National Archives web site lists several via http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records%5Cdefault.htm > paying for research, you can trawl through those or in you use your web browser to search for – military research on line – you should quickly locate one who specialises in British military research and is listed on the NA’s site. Whatever you decide give them the above references to start with and ask for an estimate for checking them.
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Nothing (much) wrong with what you have been told there. The query
WO 16/2054 97th Foot 01 January 1880 - 31 December 1882
WO 16/2055 97th Foot 01 January 1880 - 31 December 1882 other than perhaps one those should labelled “Detachment”, I’ve no idea why the dates are duplicated. is easily explained, 2054 is 1879, 2055 is 1880.
You might like to ask your source which ones of the recommended possibilities will show the man's place and date of birth. I submit the answer should be - none. So you may find a Thomas or a John but is he yours?
Good luck, do let us know how it goes.
MaxD
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Hello Elly, this is a long shot, and you've probably covered it anyway in the last 30 years :o ;) but do you have the marriage certificates/images for the siblings of John/Thomas - might he be a witness on one of them? If so, it would give you a time and location after 1881.
Frederick William was married Q1 1885 in Frindsbury All Saints (RD Strood); and Lucy Ann was married Q1 1892 in Gillingham St Mary Magdalene (RD Medway). If you haven't got these, someone on the Kent board may do a look-up for you.
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Frederick William was married Q1 1885 in Frindsbury All Saints (RD Strood); and Lucy Ann was married Q1 1892 in Gillingham St Mary Magdalene (RD Medway). If you haven't got these, someone on the Kent board may do a look-up for you.
CityArk has parish registers you can browse for these churches
https://cityark.medway.gov.uk/
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Have marriage certificates for brother & sister and John Thomas is not named on either of them.
bu thank you all for your help and advice.
NOW! anyone willing to do a couple of hours work at TNA please?
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Thanks Rosie. Never fathomed their system but stuck with it today and got the images. Hussah. Anyway, John isn't a witness but Elly probably has that info already. His brother is recorded as a sapper which ties in with Royal Engineers, details of which Elly has as well. Ah well ???
EDIT: oops, sorry, posts crossed.
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Thanks Rosie. Never fathomed their system but stuck with it today and got the images.
I always have trouble since the system was changed.
NOW! anyone willing to do a couple of hours work at TNA please?
Just to add that I believe you can only order 12 at a time so would probably have to be done in more than one session especially if someone is trying to look for you at the same time as doing their own research. Hopefully someone will be able to help you but as far as I am aware not many people on here do Kew look ups.
Rosie
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I have sent a PM
MaxD
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replied to your DM thank you again for your help and advice.
kind regards
Elly