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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Horsley2016 on Thursday 11 July 19 12:59 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone.
I'm having one of those brick wall moments ??? with my 3rd Great Grandmother's history, and I've hit upon the same wall now for about 6 months, having got no further forward! So, I'm wishing and hoping somebody far more experienced/ detailed / knowledgable than I, may be able to help me shed light.
Her name is Mary Ann McDonald
She was born, according to records, in 'Pimlico, Middlesex' around 1851.
Her Mother was Margaret, herself born around 1821 in Ireland and a Dressmaker. She was a Carragher (you can imagine the variations with this name!) She married a Robinson, briefly in 1845.
Her Father was Henry Duncan McDonald, born in Scotland around 1823.[/li][/list]
I *think* I can locate Margaret and Mary on the 1851 Census living in Avery Farm Row, St Georges, Hanover Square. The place of birth, dates and occupation match but also she is listed as married but Father is not present, which ties in too with my belief, that he was in Cold Bath Fields, Clerkenwell, Middlesex as a Prisoner (Ships Carpenter.)
Margaret was a young widow (married a Robinson) when she married Henry, in Liverpool in June 1849. Mary Ann was their first child. By 1852 their next child was born back up in Liverpool and the family remain here.
I know a fair bit about Mary Ann's life - she married 3 times, lived briefly in New York, died 1st May 1904.... but her birth details are frustrating me! Especially as I can detail her siblings lives really well! All the subsequent Censuses lists Mary Ann as born in Middlesex, London or Pimlico consistently. I wonder if there's any chance she may have been born there but registered in Liverpool, given her Father being seemingly in Prison etc...
Thank you for even reading all of this mass of info. If anyone could shed any light I'd really appreciate it. Although I understand the Liverpool geography really well, London evades me.
Thanks, M
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ignore my reply I was confused
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is her sister Seraphina mother Carrier,Liverpool 1853
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Hi Radcliff.
Yes, this is her. She also had sisters; Sarah McDonald born 1852 - MMN Craddock, Martha Jane born 1857 MMN Caraher and Margaret Winifred MMN Carrier! Despite the spellings they have been proved the same family! ::)
M
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I have found the family in Everton ,Liverpool in 1871 without Mary Ann
did you notice Henry is a "Ships Carpenter" ? a Shipwright being in Liverpool would be obvious - but Pimlico ? why would a ships carpenter live in Pimlico - no ships there - so I have to ask - where did you get Pimlico from please ?? :) do you think Margaret and Mary Ann moved there to be near his prison ?
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Birth Registration
Mary Ann Mcdonald
Oct-Nov-Dec
1849
Liverpool
Lancashire
Volume 20
Page 268
Affiliate Line Number 83
.......................................
ADDED another Mary Ann Mcdonald born July august sept 1850 in Liverpool - the next one in Liverpool is 1858...so 2 possibles .
1850
Volume 20
page 323
Affiliate 33
................................................
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Mary Ann Mcdonald
Oct-Nov-Dec 1849
Liverpool
Volume 20 Page 268
.......................................
ADDED another Mary Ann Mcdonald born July august sept 1850 in Liverpool - the next one in Liverpool is 1858...so 2 possibles .
1850
Volume 20 page 323
Not those two evidently :(
1849 - mother's maiden name LAWLER
1850 - " " " " " O'DONNEL
Carol
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Thank you all.
Garstonite - thanks. In 1871 she is in New York with her first husband Edward Rogers we think. She definitely has 2 daughters in NY - Myra and Alice, and has a son Henry Patrick Rogers who we think was born in Lpool Jul 1869 (but on the Dec 1870 USA Census, he appears to be listed as born NY.) Edward dies of Yellow fever in 1876 but the family seem to be back in the UK then anyway.
the Pimlico link comes from the 1851 Belgrave district Census in London.
My gut feeling is a 'snapshot' of info I have is wrong somewhere. My frustration is that because of the MMN Carragher and such huge variations of spellings with that and McDonald, I can't locate anything like a 'Carragher' through GRO anywhere in the country over about a 5 year span! I think the nearest I could get was a Cradock in 1850 Liverpoo for a Mary McDonald. Which I suppose is a distinct possibility...
Thank you so much.
M
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Thank you all.
Garstonite - thanks. In 1871 she is in New York with her first husband Edward Rogers we think. She definitely has 2 daughters in NY - Myra and Alice, and has a son Henry Patrick Rogers who we think was born in Lpool Jul 1869 (but on the Dec 1870 USA Census, he appears to be listed as born NY.)
M
Henry Patrick Rogers birth Liverpool September quarter 1869
Baptism
22nd August 1869
Parents Edward and Mary Ann (MacDonald)
Godparents. Michael Smith and Sarah MacDonald
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Hi Radcliff.
Yes, this is her. She also had sisters; Sarah McDonald born 1852 - MMN Craddock, Martha Jane born 1857 MMN Caraher and Margaret Winifred MMN Carrier! Despite the spellings they have been proved the same family! ::)
M
I think there is also Catherine Flora b March 7th 1855 and baptised March 25th St Albans. No mother’s maiden name on baptism but GRO has a likely birth with mmn Caton :-\
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Also this one
Baptism St Albans
November 9th 1851 - born October 1st
Henry Duncan McDonald - Father Henry Duncan and Margaret
I haven’t found a birth yet.
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Baptism, 10 Feb 1850, at St Mary & St Michael, Commercial Road, Stepney
M'Donald, Maria Anna
daughter of Henrici Duncan + Margarite M'Donald
born 2 Feb 1850
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Oh you are good, Jon. :)
That’s super. I was going to suggest looking for a Catholic baptism after the Liverpool ones but I don’t know where they are available.
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but I don’t know where they are available.
England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms. On a different website. Luckily I am at the library!
A death for the Henry you found?
Name: MCDONALD, HENRY DUNCAN
Age at Death (in years): 4
GRO Reference: 1855 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 79
Actually it turns out that the Liverpool ones are on both main websites!
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Yes, I know what you mean :)
Can’t see a birth for Mary Ann either :-\
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No, I can't see a birth registration for Mary either.
Re the Henry in prison in 1851, there is a report in the newspapers in February 1851 about a Henry Duncan McDonald. Convicted at Westminster Police Court of assault. It says convicted in the full penalty of 5l., (£5), and in default committed to prison for two months.
Not a particularly nice story, but the curious thing is that he was a policeman, 59 (I guess his number) B Division.
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Wow!
I am so very grateful to those taking the time to help me. So. From the info provided I have been able to establish that HDM born 1851 and Catherine Flora, are of the same family, are the right parents and interestingly, are both baptised at St Albans RC (along with 2 other siblings) yet are buried at St Anthonys RC. I have yet to confirm the birth records on GRO but did find a new spelling of McDonald on HDM's baptism - McDonold!! On both burial records the address is... Queen Street - the same Queen Street that is on HDM & Margaret's marriage cert in June 1849... Which is good. But...obviously throws up further questions!
So the timeline I sort of have now is:
HDM and Margaret marry 3 June 1849 at St Nicholas Church, Liverpool - which is a CoE!! ??? HDM a 'Shipwright' Both families in Queen St, Liverpool. (Parents home?)
Mary Ann is born 2 Feb 1850 and baptised RC in Stepney. (Where did you find those records from? Thank you SO much!)
30 March 1851. The Census shows Margaret and Mary Ann at 5 House 7 Court, Avery Farm Row, St George Hanover Square, Middlesex, England. Margaret a Dressmaker from Ireland. Is married, but no husband present. Mary Ann listed as having been born 'Pimlico, London.'
The 1851 Census also throws up a Henry McDonald, a Ships Carpenter born Lochgilpead, Scotland who is a Prisoner at House of Correction, Cold Bath Fields, Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England.
Yet we know, on 1st Oct 1851, their son HDM is born in Liverpool and baptised RC.
** I'm tempted to think maybe the whole London thing is a red herring with Mary Ann. However, the new found baptism records for her and the fact that I can find her with her family up in Liverpool and over the decades Census consistently states either Middlesex/London as her place of birth, makes me believe she was born there and HDM and Margaret did spend time there. The 1851 Census for both of them, ties in too. ** ???
But why would they marry as CoE?!
Thank you everyone. It also helps to go over details when typing them!
M
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Hi
Mary Ann's baptism can be found on findmypast.
It's interesting that it was in Stepney. If she was born in Pimlico, then there were other places much nearer where she could have been baptized.
On both burial records the address is... Queen Street - the same Queen Street that is on HDM & Margaret's marriage cert in June 1849... Which is good. But...obviously throws up further questions!
Is it possible that, soon after the marriage, Henry and Margaret came down to east London, which would make more sense for a ship's carpenter than Pimlico. And that at some point afterwards he had a brief career change to be a policeman? Perhaps he didn't find work as easy to get as he hoped.
B Division apparently covered Chelsea. So they move across London.
Then, as soon as the unhappy affair in 1851 was over - including Henry's career in the police - they all went straight back up to Liverpool?
We'd have to take Henry junior's date of birth into account here, which was given as 1 October 1851.
Anyway, it's something to mull over! It's sending my head spinning!
Are we sure that Margaret Winifred, who we see in 1861, is the same daughter in 1871? :-\
There's a baptism at St Patrick Liverpool, 26 October 1862, of another Margaret, parents Henry and Margaret. Born 8 October.
John
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Well we know that HDM's Father, Malcolm, was an Army Officer and there is an unproven, but likely link, that HDM in 1841 was at St Martin in the Fields as a Fusilier Guard. So a move to a Policeman wasn't that far fetched an idea...
But it's interesting you have a newspaper article which lists him as a Policeman - the prison records I can see (through the census) list him as Ships Carpenter! Which newspaper was it?
The whole family certainly lived an 'interesting' life so any story is possible as to where they went and what they did!
I think I have the right Margaret Winifred - baptised at Our Lady of Reconciliation de la Salette 6 Jun 1860. Born 27 May 1860. In 1861 she's on the Census at 55 Hedley Street. In 1871 at 78a Robsart St. Her Sister Sarah is a cap maker which I can trace throughout and it lists HDM the Father, a Ships Carpenter and Margaret from Ireland... Margaret Winifred marries a James Maher at St Augustines in Aug 1882.
I know what you mean about head spinning! It's so very frustrating as it always seems to be my 'true' blood line is the most difficult to prove but all the aunts, uncles and cousins etc are much easier!
Thank you again for taking a look - very much appreciated!
M
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Hi
It's in the Morning Post, Monday 24 February 1851. Page 7, final column (6)
Brutal Assault by a Policeman
I think one sentence in there implies that HDM was married.
Warning! It involves injury to a pregnant woman.
BNA give you three free page views if you just register
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/account/register
John
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Thank you!
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I am wondering if this could be the other couple involved. The policeman was Hammill 134, whose wife was heavily pregnant. Looking for a Hammill who was in the police in 1851 finds..
Patrick Hammill, 27, wife Bridget, 27, three children including a baby. And they are in St George Hanover Square, just five census pages before Margaret and Mary McDonald! Piece 1477 folio 531 page 25.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGTJ-GLT
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I omitted the names of the sponsors on the baptism of Mary Ann in 1850.
They were, as recorded - Pat: Hamill, Brigitta Hamill ;D
So perhaps Henry was already in the police force in 1850?