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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wicklow => Topic started by: tmusabotf on Monday 31 December 07 17:59 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find out information on a William Bestal. other spellings are Bestel, Bestle from Avoca in Ireland, he married a Margaret Corcoran and they are my great grandparents. their children were called Margaret, Mary, Bridget, William, Edward, Frank and Jack (John).
They were born in Ireland and moved to a village near Glasgow, Scotland towards the end of 1800's i think
Any information would be very much appreciated as i have been getting nowhere for quite a while now
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I would gently adise you to start your own topic heading New topic created
Betsal, Bestall, Bestil, Bestel, Bestle in Avoca, Co Wicklow the first answer for you is on www.familysearch.com
William Law Bestall Birth: About 1796 Vale Of Avoca, , , Ireland the I would investigate the following then I would search for the other spelling
34. Maud Mary Bestall - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 17 SEP 1874 , Wicklow, Ireland
35. William Law Allen Bestall - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 13 DEC 1880 , Wicklow, Ireland
36. Norah Elizabeth <Bestale> - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 05 MAR 1872 Ovoca, Wicklow, Ireland
37. Richard Henry Bestall - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 24 NOV 1873 , Wicklow, Ireland
38. Catherine Vivian Bestall - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 07 SEP 1878 Templelyon, Wicklow, Ireland
39. Robert Fredrick Bestall - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 15 AUG 1873 , Wicklow, Ireland
40. Hilda Bestall - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 07 DEC 1877 Bed Cross, , Wicklow, Ireland
41. William Law Bestall - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 24 APR 1822 Dunganstown, Wicklow, Ireland
then look up Griffiths Valuation of Ireland 1848-1865Surname First Name Townland Parish County
Following are the exact matches:
Bestal William L. Templelyon Upper Redcross Wicklow
Bestal Sarah Kilmurry South Redcross Wicklow
you will sooner or later need a townland map of the civil parishes that interest you in Wicklow
Good luck, Jim
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forgot to say, does anyone have any information on a marriage between William Bestal, both died in Scotland and Margaret Corcoran of Avoca Wicklow, just wondering if they maybe got married in Dublin or Wicklow, don't know where to look, many thanks
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Many Thanks for replying and happy new year, I already had a wee look at family search.com. I was really trying to find out who William's parents were. Our family spell he name as Bestel or Bestle, there are even two different spellings on my mother's wedding certificate. However I have only recently found out that the spelling is Bestal on my great grandfather's death certificate. I have now found out that William Bestal was baptised in 1862 in Wicklow and his parents were William Bestal and Anne Cullen, if anyone can help me I would very much appreciate it. There is obviously some link to the Bestall/Bestal family but I can't piece that link together.
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Hi, hoping I’m using this correctly as I fairly new to tracing my family tree. I am the great gran daughter of Mary Bestall, grand daughter of William Bestall and Magaret Corcoran. I have managed to trace back to Anne Cullen and William Bestall also but not managed any further. There is many variants to the name bestall, bestel, bestle. My great grandmothers spelling is different on her birth certificate to her headstone. I’m not sure I can give you anymore information than what you have but I am happy to try.
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Anne Cullen and William Bestal (farmer) the parents of William Bestal born 1862 in Avoca Wicklow is as far back as I can get as well.
However I recently saw a marriage cert dated 1 Aug 1879 for Hannah Bestall daughter of William Bestall (farmer) She married Peter Ferres in the Rutland Presbyterian church in North Dublin. The record states she was living in Derbyshire when she got married. Hannah could be from a completely different family but perhaps she is Wm juniors sister. Perhaps the family came from Derbyshire and not Ireland or it could be that Hannah went to Derbyshire for work. (Needs checked)
Also there is a *William Bestill b1832* and Robert Bestill b1833 from Kent (merchant seamen - military service (i’m presuming it could be the Crimean War they partook in). Both ended up living in Wicklow by the looks of it but probably married in England (needs checked out ). However again it could be a different family but due to lack of records anything is possible. *Perhaps this is the William who married Anne Cullen*
Maybe some more Irish records will appear at some point or they could have been lost in the fire at the Dublin records office. I believe a lot of Wicklow records were destroyed and now dependent on parish records for some of them.
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/what-civil-records-are-on-line
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However I recently saw a marriage cert dated 1 Aug 1879 for Hannah Bestall daughter of William Bestall (farmer) She married Peter Ferres in the Rutland Presbyterian church in North Dublin. The record states she was living in Derbyshire when she got married. Hannah could be from a completely different family but perhaps she is Wm juniors sister. Perhaps the family came from Derbyshire and not Ireland or it could be that Hannah went to Derbyshire for work. (Needs checked)
Easily checked on 1901 census- Hannah Ferres born England-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Queen_s_Co_/Shaen/Ballydavis/1648581
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Thanks Hallmark, that’s the record I saw, if only the mothers names were on them then there would be no issue re proving they were brother and sister.
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Thanks Aghadowey, it’s possible Hannah is from the family I’m researching but I’m unabke to find who her mother was. If her number is Anne Cullen then that’s the proof I need
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The 1832 tithes have an entry
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/index.jsp
William Law Bestall Templelyon Dunganstown
Wicklow 1832 he has 43 acres but part bog and the lowest value per acres applied within that townland There are notes Miss Bestall appears to pay for Wodfow McCaul nearby homestead and Mrs Bestall pays for William Law Bestalls homestead
the same site has ~130 Cullen in the county covering with several in same parish as Bestall
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Thank you BallyaltikilliganG. There are two William Law Bestalls that I found One married Elizabeth French in 1873, so he is ruled out unless he’s a cousin etc.
The other died in 1867 but the civil records can pat be viewed yet online. It states he was 67 when he died meaning he was born circa 1800, his death is recorded in Rathdrum which is where my ancestors lived but I think his wife was called Catherine
It appears that there’s a total brick wall regarding William and Anne and that’s why I started looking elsewhere in England and Wales but as yet nothing again. That doesn’t mean there is nothing there are loads of records for William Bestall’s in England but In doing so I haven’t ruled out Ireland, the problem is the missing records and the records that can’t be viewed online yet I think.
Been looking for years and getting absolutely nowhere ( so many different spellings in the transcriptions of the surname isn’t helping either (a’s Interprepted as e’s and e’s interpreted as i’s) Also baptism records and birth certificates for the same people have different spellings as well. There’s at least 9 variations but mainly the difference is one L or two L’s.
To me Bestal and Bestall have got to be the correct as it appears these two are the most common ways to spell the name
Maybe one day I’ll find out but I’ve got nowhere in the past 15 years apart from last year when I found William and Anne due to find my past uploaded baptism certificates.
Thanks again
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Thank you BallyaltikilliganG. There are two William Law Bestalls that I found One married Elizabeth French in 1873, so he is ruled out unless he’s a cousin etc.
The other died in 1867 but the civil records can pat be viewed yet online. It states he was 67 when he died meaning he was born circa 1800, his death is recorded in Rathdrum which is where my ancestors lived but I think his wife was called Catherine
Thanks again
Erected by WILLIAM BESTALL Esq of Templelyon House | in memory of his son |
RICHARD FREDERICK BESTALL A.B.,T.C.D.L., R.C.S.I. | who departed September 21st
1856 | at the age of 28 years | also the above named | WILLIAM LAW BESTALL who
|died May the 30th 1867 | aged 67
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/wicklow/photos/tombstones/wicklow-town/target64.html
Alphabetical List of Landowners in 1870's - Names & Addresses Only
Bestall, Catherine xxxx Templelyon
Bestall, Eliza xxxx Wicklow
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/wicklow/censubs/landowners-wicklow-a-c.txt
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HEADSTONE INSCRIPTIONS
DERG PARISH CHURCH, LOWER MAIN ST., CASTLEDERG
(C OF I)
BESTALL
To the memory of Audley CALDWELL late of the Forttown who entered into life
eternal on the 14th of October 1859 aged 60 years also of Frederick LAW
youngest son of Margaret BESTALL who departed this life on 21st June 1860 aged
5 years also of his mother Margaret BESTALL eldest daughter of Audley CALDWELL
who exchanged mortality for life on the 19th of September 1861 aged 34 years
also James Audley second son of the late Audley CALDWELL, Esqr of Forttown who
died 28th September 1877 aged 47.
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Thanks hallmark, I can only presume William Law x2 and Audley Bestall were related in some way to my William Bestal/Bestall. Probably a common ancestor somewhere.
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https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Abestal~&collection_id=1584964
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Thanks Dathai, both you and hallmark have helped me before. The records in above link look like they are for a different strain of the Bestal/Bestall Family.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?collection=parish%20baptisms&keywordsplace=wicklow&keywordsplace_proximity=0&lastname=bestil&lastname_variants=true&sourcecategory=life%20events%20(bmds)&sourcecountry=ireland
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1888/10776/5930195.pdf
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I’ve had the scoring out checked and the consensus of opinion that came back was that his baptism name was initially recorded as Valentine and changed to Wm (William). A bit odd but I’ve seen that happening on other records (not helped by the slight creasing on the page)
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Back in 2007 it was suggested that you start a separate thread for your family, Bernie12, but unfortunately it wasn't done at that point and has not become intertwined with the Bestall family that the original poster, and others were looking for.
There is lots of information online (some available in the last few years) to sort out much of what has been posted here.
Bestall information also on this Macfarlane thread-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=272018.0
Dr. George Bestall m.(1796) Ann Law
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-277-1-3-431
Their son-
William Law Bestall (c1800-30 May 1867 Templelyon House) m.(1822) Catherine Manning (c1804-1889)
? William Law Bestall About 1796 Vale Of Avoca
? William Law Bestall Marriage: 24 APR 1822 Dunganstown, Wicklow, Ireland
Wicklow News-Letter and County Advertiser, 1 June 1867: May 30, at Templelyon house, Redcross, after a long and painful illness, William Law Bestall, Esq., aged 67 years.
1. William Law Bestall (c1821-19 Mar.1904 Templelyon), farmer, m.(1873 Rathmines, Dublin) Elizabeth Maria Ffrench
2. George Augustus Bestall (c1822-1902 Chicago), eldest son, m.(1847 Urney) Margaret Caldwell (c1827-19 Sept.1861 Forttown House, Caslederg)
3. Samuel Manning Bestall (c1823-1885 Gorey), solicitor, m. Margaret Fitzsimmons
4. Richard Frederick Bestall (c1828-21 Sept.1856)
5. Sarah Anne “Nannie” Bestall (c1833-1866 Dublin) m.(1859 Dublin) Charles Caldon/Caldow
6. Abraham Bestal (1835-1892) m.(1875) Jane Hall Bolton
7. Susanna Frances Bestall (1836-1908) m.(1857 Redcross) Dr. Stopford William Halpin
8. Kate Adelaide Bestall (1837-1917) m.(1861 Dublin) Dr. John Gay Ffrench
9. Dr. Robert McCausland Bestall (1840-1884) m. Mary Eleanor Nina Askins
10. Elizabeth Charlotte Bestall (1842-1931) m.(1880) Allen William French (d.1933)
11. Dr. Charles Albert Bestall (1845-1881)
12. Georgina Matilda/Maude Bestall (1847-1922) m.(1877 & 1878) Dr. Richard Henry Ffrench (c1849-1888)
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Yes the Liverpool family is our family. They are the siblings of my grandmother Charlotte Elizabeth. I did not however know of Audley Caldwell Bestall or Rebecca Margaret and some of the d.o.b's seem a little different. I did not know they were all in Liverpool although my grandmother I know married my grandfather Joseph Macfarlane and they lived there and it is where we all hail from. Rebecca Margaret must have been the child of the second marriage of Audley William B to Mary Campbell in 1883 I think.
The 'Liverpool' family-
George James Bestall (c1853 Creduff, Tyrone-8 July 1902 Chicago), son of George Augustus Bestall & Margaret Caldwell (see above), m.(1874 W. Derby) Annie Gray (c1845-J/M 1883 Liverpool) m.(1890 Philadelphia) Jane Caldwell, ?m.(3 Mar.1902 Chicago) Alma Bloomberg
Marriage Bonds & Allegations (1874) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F19G-L2T
All children mother’s maiden name Gray.
1. Charlotte Caldwell Elizabeth Bestall (2 Mar.1875 Liverpool-J/M 1875 Liverpool)
Birth notice: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLSW-HZTB
2. Sarah Georgina Bestall (A/J 1876 Liverpool-A/J 1876 Liverpool)
3. Audley Caldwell Bestall (J/S 1877 Liverpool-Sept.1877 Liverpool)
Burial https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J86K-QP1
4. Rebecca Margaret Bestall (11 Dec.1878 Liverpool-aft.1940) m. _ Campbell
1900 Census- Chicago: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MS7M-RB1 (to US 1890)
Bapt.1901 Chicago https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6SZQ-Q6V?i=89&cc=1452409 (Margaret Rebecca)
5. Frederick Bestall (J/M 1883 Liverpool-J/M 1883 Liverpool)
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Shazza092324. Is you’re Mary Bestall the one who married Thomas Winters, if so we are related and I personally know two of Mary’s children. I was speaking to one of them just 2 weeks ago. I have now found at least another 9 various spellings but the original is definitely either Bestal or Bestall.
Bestal is on my grandfather’s baptism cert but Bestall on his birth certificate (born in Wicklow 1893). If you’re Mary is the one who married Thomas Winters it means you’re Mary was my grandfather’s niece and my mother’s cousin. If so pleased to meet you over the web. I’ve recently had a new gravestone erected for William as the old one was worn out. I’ve also got an item which is engraved with the name Bestall. It’s absolutely worthless but adds to the history.
The majority of the way the name is spelled in Ireland is Bestal and Bestall, due to the style of writing a lot of transcriptions/interpretation of the spelling it’s clear to see that a good deal of the records have been interpreted incorrectly hence so many different spellings appearing in the records, not helped by the fact that (Wm Bestal and Margaret Corcoran) couldn't write and as well as incorrect transcriptions they also depended on the priest, minister and registrar etc spelling the name correctly. Even Willian’s town of birth has been transcribed incorrectly as Rathdown, it should be Rathdrum (I can see how that’s happened (style of writing again). Ive asked for it to be changed but as yet it hasn’t happened.
I presume you know about their other son Francis who won the military medal for bravery on the field during ww1.
Maybe one day we will get to the bottom of the lineage.
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Aghadowey, there is a separate page which I started. Unfortunately it didn’t get any further back, hallmark and dathai did manage to find some answers for me with regards to going forward 1890’- 1960 and it was great.
Unfortunately I’m still stuck with what and other members of my family are looking for re going back in time, we have searched many records and are getting absolutely no where. A lot of marriage records pre 1860 can’t be viewed yet, nor deaths- only the name but no details. My recent response was a reply to someone who innocently posted on this page the other day who is new to this site just like me way back.
I can modify my recent posts to show no text apart from a dot or I can ask the moderator to remove them completely if you want but that will leave hallmark, yourself, dathai with replies to posts which I will have removed resulting in it looking odd. I have no problem modifying or removing them but need to know quickly as I believe after a certain point modifying cant be done, therefore if I modify the recent ones it would be best if the three of you did the same.
It’s clear there’s no direct line link to Audley or William Law but they could be cousins (particularly with William Law also from Wicklow) and it appears Audley had relatives in Dublin. Someone at one point said they could see a connection but I’ve ruled it out myself as their mothers are different. In 2007 I hadn’t a clue how to start a new post but afterwards figured it out and was hoping someone who was posting here had some info at the time.
Unfortunately that brick wall still exists after 15 years of looking.
I’ve found some details of what could be a connection to my line in the 1600’s In Wicklow but because there are gaps I’m unable to link for definite. Therefore I’m now checking England and Wales in case the family were moving about but thats a very big task as so many Bestalls in many different towns in England. Difficult to pick which one (needle in a haystack).
With such an unusual name and 99% appear to be mainly in Wicklow and Tyrone there’s got to be a connection (common ancestor) somewhere
Apologies for posting on this page in 2007 but I thought it would be rude not to respond to someone just starting out.
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Aghadowey, there is a separate page which I started. Unfortunately it didn’t get any further back, hallmark and dathai did manage to find some answers for me with regards to going forward 1890’- 1960 and it was great.
Here's your other topic- it's too bad you didn't direct Shazza092324 to that topic to keep you family's posts together but too late now.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=798592.0
A lot of marriage records pre 1860 can’t be viewed yet, nor deaths- only the name but no details.
Do you mean Irish Genealogy civil records? registration of Catholic marriages didn't start until 1864. Hopefully more records will be added soon (there's at least one topic about that here on RC)
I can modify my recent posts to show no text apart from a dot or I can ask the moderator to remove them completely if you want but that will leave hallmark, yourself, dathai with replies to posts which I will have removed resulting in it looking odd. I have no problem modifying or removing them but need to know quickly as I believe after a certain point modifying cant be done, therefore if I modify the recent ones it would be best if the three of you did the same.
You can only modify your own posts within 24 hours. Moderators can split replies, etc. but this thread is now too jumbled to start doing that. Deleting information already posted or entire posts is not Rootschat policy unless the posts contain spam, abusive language, etc.
I can't see any links yet between your family and these Bestalls (well educated, property owners, etc.). Anything is possible and there may be a link much further back but difficult to find records to prove or disprove at this point.
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Death of Catherine (Manning) Bestall wife of William Law Bestall-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1889/06153/4758034.pdf
More on the descendants of William Law Bestall-
William Law Bestall (c1821-19 Mar.1904 Templelyon), farmer, m.(1873 Rathmines, Dublin) Elizabeth Maria Ffrench (alive 1911)
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Dunganstown_South/Templelyon_Upper/1814832
Wicklow News-Letter and County Advertiser, 2 Apr.1904: DEATHS. Bestall- March 29, 1904, at Templelyon, Redcross, County Wicklow, William Law Bestall, aged _ years.
1911- Elizabeth with son Digby
1. Richard Henry Bestall (1873 Templelyon-1879)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03163/2160357.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1879/06530/4881755.pdf
2. Sarah Bestall (1875)
3. Catherine Vivian Bestall (1878 Templelyon-aft.1901)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02944/2078636.pdf
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Louth/Westgate__Drogheda_Town/West_Street/1568032 (Vivian K. Bestall, governess)
4. William Law Allen Bestall (1880 Templelyon) m.(1911 Toronto) Georgina Florence Bestall (c1883 Co. Wexford), dau. of Abraham Bestall & Jane Hall Bolton
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02853/2045675.pdf
Marriage https://homepages.rootsweb.com/~maryc/tor1911new.htm William Law BESTALL, 30, constable, of 141 Gorevale, s/o William Law BESTALL, farmer (dead) & Elizabeth FRENCH, married Groegina Florence BESTALL, 26, of 141 Gorevale, d/o Georgina Florence BESTALL (sic), doctor (dead), & Jane Hall BOLTON, witn: Charles E. STANLEY of 738 Markham St. & E.L. MORROW of 939 Bathurst, 4 Oct 1911
5. Charles Albert Bestall (1882-1893 Templelyon), son of William
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02773/2018142.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1893/06012/4711406.pdf
6. Digby George Bestall (1884 Templelyon-aft.1955) m.(1905) Jane Greaves Woodroofe
7. (Robert) Frederick Bestall (1886 Templelyon-1954 Templelyon)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02594/1958304.pdf
1911- Frederick Bestall with brother Digby
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1955/04437/4159983.pdf
8. Henry Allen Bestall (1888 Templelyon-1974 B.C.) m. Mary Ann Brittain
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02497/1926325.pdf
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLB2-5Q8
9. Elizabeth Ethel Lillian “Elsie” Bestal (c1893) m.(1919 London) Walter T. Biscoe
Digby George Bestall (1884 Templelyon-aft.1955) m.(1905) Jane Greaves Woodroofe
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02704/1995757.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1905/10153/5694615.pdf
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Dunganstown_South/Templelyon__Upper/895853
1. William Law Henry Bestall (1906 Templelyon-1942)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1906/01731/1684400.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1942/04686/4249564.pdf
2. Vivian Maria Elizabeth Bestall (1908 Templelyon) m.(1927) Edward Johnson
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01646/1657558.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1927/09110/5295337.pdf
3. Haidaa Jane Greaves Bestall (1910 Templelyon) m.(1929) Charles Heavener
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01562/1630684.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1929/09070/5281544.pdf
4. Frederick Robert Bestall (1913 Templelyon-aft.1942)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1913/01454/1594087.pdf
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George Augustus Bestall (c1822-1902 Chicago), eldest son, m.(1847 Urney) Margaret Caldwell (c1827-19 Sept.1861 Forttown House, Caslederg), dau. of Audley Caldwell
Marriage https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGVD-VKMM
Londonderry Sentinel, 27 Feb.1847: On the 25th inst., at Urney Church, by the Rev. Mr. Rodgers, George, eldest son of William Law Bestall, Esq., Templelyon, county Wicklow, to Margaret, eldest daughter of Audley Caldwell, Esq., Castletown House, Strabane.
Londonderry Sentinel, 27 Sept.1861: September 19, at the Forttown House, Castlederg, Margaret, wife of Mr. George Bestall, aged 34 years.
To the memory of Audley CALDWELL late of the Forttown who entered into life eternal on the 14th of October 1859 aged 60 years also of Frederick LAW youngest son of Margaret BESTALL who departed this life on 21st June 1860 aged 5 years also of his mother Margaret BESTALL eldest daughter of Audley CALDWELL who exchanged mortality for life on the 19th of September 1861 aged 34 years also James Audley second son of the late Audley CALDWELL, Esqr of Forttown who died 28th September 1877 aged 47.
1. Charlotte Elizabeth Bestall (1847-27 June 1932) m.(1881 Victoria Terrace, Ballymacarrett, Belfast) Hugh Alexander Campbell (d.10 Apr.1921), draper, Ballynahinch. Raised in America?
Londonderry Sentinel, 27 Nov.1847: November 13th, at Castletown House, county Tyrone, the lady of George Bestall, Esq., of a daughter.
Marriage https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11006/8024505.pdf
2. Audley William John Bestall (1848/1850 Castlederg?-30 June 1920 Hillsborough) m.1 Mary Jane Caldwell; m.2 Mary Patterson Campbell
3. George James Bestall (c1853 Creduff, Tyrone-8 July 1902 Chicago) m.(1874 W. Derby) Annie Gray (c1845-J/M 1883 Liverpool) m.(1890 Philadelphia) Jane Caldwell, ?m.(3 Mar.1902 Chicago) Alma Bloomberg. Family already posted.
4. Frederick Law Bestall (c1855-21 June 1860)
Londonderry Sentinel, 29 June 1860: June 21, at Forthtown House, Castlederg, Frederick Law, the beloved child of George Bestall, Esq., aged 5 years and 4 months.
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Abraham Bestal (1835-1892) m.(1875) Jane Hall Bolton (d.1936 Eng.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1875/11212/8109723.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1892/06048/4723204.pdf
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Ballygarrett/Mangan_Lower/1795168
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Killenagh/Raheen_Park/686150
1. William Law Bestall (1877 Gorey-1939 Queens, NY) m.(1907 NY) Charlotte Lydia deLong
2. Catherine Evangeline Bestall (1879)
3. John Allen Bolton Bestall (1880-1968)
4. Georgina Florence Bestall (c1883 Co.Wexford) m.(1911 Toronto) William Law Allen Bestall
Dr. Robert McCausland Bestall (1840-1884) m. Mary Eleanor Nina Askins (c1851-1926). Could be other children.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Pembroke_East___Donnybrook/Claremount_Road/1284834
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1926/04986/4359814.pdf
1. Norah Elizabeth Bestall (1872)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03263/2196146.pdf
2. Robert Frederick Bestall (1873-1939), architect
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03175/2164598.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1939/04751/4272703.pdf
3. Maud Mary Bestall (1874-aft.1911)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1875/03116/2142841.pdf
4. Hilda Bestall (1877)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02967/2087022.pdf
5. Mary Bestall (c1877-1948)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1948/04556/4202769.pdf
6. Florence Bestall (1881-1955)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02831/2037990.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1955/04431/4157797.pdf
Note: the family tree posted is not complete but should sort out the family a bit more and correct previous questions & errors posted in this thread.
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Hello Aghadowey, I’m still able to modify most recent posts to a dot, let me know if you want that done. I've contacted the moderator asking them to remove my posts so that Audley’s board is clearer, as mentioned my recent posts on this board was because I didn’t want to appear rude but it is muddying the waters for Audley.
More than likely they are related via a common ancestor (particularly since both strains come from Rathdrum). There are official and shameful reasons why RC and others weren’t formally educated for a lengthy period of time (centuries), prior to that a lot of RC were educated in Irish Gaelic till that was banned.
I’ve also been told and have read that if a COI person married an RC person during the period of education being stopped for RC that the COI person was officially disowned (perhaps not lovingly disowned but definitely officially) and not only that their children were banned from being educated. I have no affiliation to either religion
In fact I have 2 ministers in my family born in the late 1700’s (one was a pilgrim minister who emigrated to America re missions), there is a painting of him in the 1800’s in a well known university. The other minister wasn’t a pilgrim but was the head minister of his parish. These ministers are linked to the Bestall family via other sources of marriage and are blood relations.
I’ve found many more mixed marriages for both sides of my family in Ireland and it is possible that is what happened re the Bestall’s of Wicklow in my family. However I still have to prove it which isn’t easy at the moment but will still continue to look.
Re RC marriages pre 1864 I’ve managed to find one yesterday in Wicklow dated 1855, looks like some are there but not all, they can be found in find my past. No doubt some will be in an unreadable state and others lost in the fire. I believe lots of Wicklow records were lost in the fire sadly.
I also have RC marriage records from other counties in Ireland pre 1864 with regards to my other side of the family. Hopefully more will be available soon and the link can be gotten
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Listening to too much gossip!
e.g.
Maynooth College was founded in 1795 as a seminary for the education of priests and by 1850 had become the largest seminary in the world.
The College was founded because it was urgently needed. In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries it had not been possible to educate Catholic priests in Ireland. Institutions had been established in Catholic Europe, where they had become concentrated in France. The French Revolution confiscated all of these in 1792 and 1793. In Ireland the Penal Code was being dismantled, and the British Government, at war with revolutionary France, was anxious to placate Irish Catholic dissatisfactions, and certainly did not wish to see ‘revolutionary’ priests returning from the continent. In consequence, a petition to Parliament by the Irish Catholic Bishops was successful, and ‘An Act for the better education of persons professing the Popish or Roman Catholic religion’ was passed in June 1795. It provided a modest grant to establish a college.
R.C's were educated!!
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Another...
Charles Gavan Duffy was born in Monaghan Town on the 12th April 1816. The son of a Catholic shopkeeper, his parents died when he was very young and he was raised by his uncle Father James Duffy, the Parish Priest of Castleblayney. Duffy was educated at St Malachy’s college in Belfast and was admitted to the Irish Bar in 1845.
What is omitted is that he attended the C of I school in Monaghan prior to college!!
Daniel O'Connell was a Barrister.....
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It’s not gossip, Priests were educated as the powers that Be didn’t want further uprisings since the one in the late 1600’s but it was difficult for poorer people to get that education due to costs and lack of facilities. I have saw the post before of a catholic being educated in an COI Trinity College, it appears to be a rare occurrence. The problem lies further back to the 1600’s and into the late 1700’s whereby atrocious laws existed.
I have no preference for either religion and I don’t know all the ins and outs of what went on but it is true RC in the main at that time were kept down by law and although these laws were later repealed it took years on end to sort things out properly. Poorer Presbyterians also faced problems with being educated.
Here are a few examples of such facts and laws which caused impact into the 1800’s
* no doubt this one applied to all children regardless of religion * - If you were a child in the early nineteenth century you were not able to go to a national school paid for by the government because they did not exist until the 1830's. Large numbers of children still went to school in the 1800's but in most cases they had to pay to attend so if you were poor or had a big family it would have been unlikely all children from a poor family if any were able to attend school at that time. Perhaps even being only able to afford educating one child.
* Exclusion of Catholics from most public offices (since 1607), Presbyterians were also barred from public office from 1707.
* Ban on intermarriage with Protestants; repealed 1778
* Exclusion from the legal professions and the judiciary; repealed (respectively) 1793 and 1829
**** Bar to Catholics and Protestant Dissenters entering Trinity College Dublin; repealed 1793.****
*** On a death by a Catholic, his legatee could benefit by conversion to the Church of Ireland; ***
*** Popery Act – Catholic inheritances of land were to be equally subdivided between all an owner's sons with the exception that if the eldest son and heir converted to Protestantism that he would become the one and only tenant of estate and portions for other children not to exceed one third of the estate. This "Gavelkind" system had previously been abolished by 1600.***
* Ban on converting from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism on pain of Praemunire: forfeiting all property estates and legacy to the monarch of the time and remaining in prison at the monarch's pleasure. In addition, forfeiting the monarch's protection. No injury however atrocious could have any action brought against it or any reparation for such.
*** Ban on Catholics inheriting Protestant land***
* Prohibition on Catholics owning a horse valued at over £5 (to keep horses suitable for military activity out of the majority's hands)
* Roman Catholic lay priests had to register to preach under the Registration Act 1704, but seminary priests and Bishops were not able to do so until 1778
* When allowed, new Catholic churches were to be built from wood, not stone, and away from main roads.
* 'No person of the popish religion shall publicly or in private houses teach school, or instruct youth in learning within this realm' upon pain of twenty pounds fine and three months in prison for every such offence. Repealed in 1782.[8]
* Any and all rewards not paid by the crown for alerting authorities of offences to be levied upon the Catholic populace within parish and county
Sorry this is detracting from Audley again but I’m trying to point out why there was a possible disinheriting/disowning of William Bestal who was probably born between 1800-1840, perhaps even born earlier and more than likely related to Audley as both from Rathdrum.
Strangely enough the Bestall ancestors I have found so far appear to have been quite poor but out of that poorness and with some of the family struggling to obtain higher education due to costs, sacrifices were made and we have currently well educated family members some of which are surgeons, one of which who carries out the most complex and dangerous type of surgery you can get. So although there has been episodes of non education, the brains still clearly exist
I’m not posting on this thread again as enough has been said and has detracted from minimac Original post
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Hi,
I have hopefully separated the two thread that had become mixed up into two correctly.
Other topics on the family here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=798592.0
and here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=274044.0
Regards
Sarah