RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Essnell on Tuesday 23 July 19 07:04 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I hope someone here may be able to help with this last name.
person:
Karin Neilssen (1) ....in Ships passenger list from Hamburg 1871 arrival port Hobart town, Tasmania. [Now part of Australia] eventually being in Rockhampton, Queensland, where she married, as below.
On this listing she is noted as Frau which I think means Mrs. in English.
(2) also My grandfather's Birth Certificate from Queensland Australia 1881. Mother Kate no mmn.
His sister 1883 her Certificate has Kate Neilssen as mmn
His brother 1885 his cert has Karin Nelson
(3) The marriage Cert. for Karin and her husband Carl 1879 has Karin Neilssen as her last name.
(4) Also on this particular Cert both sets of their parents are given .
Karin Neilssen's are Nils Larssen [father] and Christina Jensen [mother].
I have tried to find a birth cert for Karin as either Neilssen or Larssen but I am stumped by what I cannot read.
(6) My elderly Aunt has given me this information: Karin Neilssen came from Jenarp, Sweden. She apparently immigrated via Denmark and Germany.
The person she married in 1879 was Carl August Schmidt . He was from Copenhagen, Denmark. He immigrated in 1877 to Brisbane, eventually getting to Rockhampton, Queensland where he met and married Karin.
What I would like to understand is how she is Neilssen when neither of her parents are and how to interpret the Swedish documents.
Many thanks for any help here,
Essnell
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Neilssen == daughter of Niels/ Nils.
Would explain a lot
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Hello Essnell
It looks as if Karin was using a patronym, that is she is Using her father’s forename as the basis of her surname.
Familysearch.org has many useful wikis - here is one that may be helpful
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Scandinavia_Names?cid=bl-fsb-8280
In my experience you have to be very flexible with Scandinavian names. Karin could also be known as Nilsdatter/dotter. Or if her father had a byname (to distinguish him from the other Nils Larssons in the same village, or semi inherited from his father) then that may sometimes have been added to her name, but not always. If she married, she might sometimes be listed with her husband’s surname, sometimes with her own patronym ( or her husband’s or father’s byname). I found a family who had emigrated to the US had adopted the name of the hamlet the husband was born in. Surnames were fluid for some time after legislation requiring the adoption of surnames in the modern sense.
As the 19th century progressed, surnames became more stable, and those who emigrated to an English speaking country mostly settled on one surname on or after arrival. This would not necessarily be the same surname as other siblings.
On the bright side, images of Danish parish records are free online and census records going back to the late 18th century are increasingly available and indexed.
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Here is a link to a wiki re Swedish research - go up a level and you will find links for the other Scandinavian countries
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Sweden_Genealogy
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Duplicate post:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o38/
Ian
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Same situation in Shetland into the 18th century.
Skoosh.
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Hi
When was Karin born?
I assume you have found Carl August in Denmark.
Ian
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Hi Everyone and thankyou for all the responses.
Re the duplicate post I tried posting a day or so earlier but could not find it in the list of "started by" so assumed it never was posted.
Now as far as I am aware Karin was born in 1857 in Jenarp or Jonarp Sweden.
Carl August Schmidt born in Copenhagen Denmark. I have not found his birth information. I have spent quite some time on him and it was all the wrong family. The one I found was way too young and the marriage in 1879 did not gel ..
I do have this ... His immigration details.
passenger no: 331
Surname: Schmidt
Given Name: Carl August
Town: Glostrup
State: Danemark
Standing: Arbeiter
Sex : M
Age: 22
Destination: Rockhampton
Ship Name: Charles Dickens
Year : 1878.
I think that the ship left in 1877 and arrived in Australia early 1878.
The above is off the passenger list on FindMyPast.
From the above information he would have been born in 1856.
On the marriage certificate for Karin and Carl their ages are 23 for Carl and 22 for Karin.
Their first son Edmund was born in 1881 and their ages are Carl 25yrs and Karin24yrs.... [they have one deceased male child] all on Edmund's Birth Cert which I have just purchased.
Their marriage was in the town of Rockhampton, Queensland, Australia.1879.
I think I have given all relevant information that is off records here.
thanks for any help. i shall look into thse links provided.
regards
Essnell
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Hi
I found a Karin Nilsson and a Carl August Schmidt on the same Charles Dickens ship sailing from Hamburg on 6th Nov 1878 to Queensland. It looks as though they met on the boat over.
Karin Nilsson age 21 - page 227 - nr 317
Carl August Schmidt age 22 - page 229 - nr 402
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o3a/
Ian
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This looks to be Carl August's birth record in Garnison Parish in Copenhagen nr 63:
http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=73915685
Ian
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Hi Jamcat95,
;D :)
Wonderful !!! Thank you so much I can get the info for the Charles Dickens here from Qld Customs House. The Charles Dickens voyage ended in Moreton Bay.
Karin's name never came up so great find .. yes they would have met on the ship. 2-3 mths on a sea voyage.
The other find is the Birth Record which is totally WOW. Can I ask - Is his mother Anna Olsen ? Because they have used jensen on doc here in Australia. so just checking. It looks like the previous word is the same on other entries on the page and the "o" is a capital. Is it in German or Danish?
So Karin was born 1857 in Sweden in Jenarp or Jonarp. I have no idea where that would be.
Thanks so much and I am really really happy finding these.
Essnell
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Cheers.
I am trying to locate her here in Sweden. But am having a bit of trouble in doing so.
Ian
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Could this be the place?
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Genarp_Parish,_Malm%C3%B6hus,_Sweden_Genealogy
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Yes it probably is. I have looked there but I haven't been able to find her.
Ian
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There is also Hjärnarp pronounced roughly "yairnarp" which also could be a possibility.
Ian
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Hi Jamcat95 amd PaulineJ,
Thank you for looking --- if ou are having trouble i have no hope.
Genarp sounds a real possibility. so close to what i was handed "Jenarp" I would say that this is a phonetic spelling here in Queensland in auast. It happend so often.
also the other one Hj.... .
both are an improvement on what i have which leads no where.
thankyou both
I have found Karin on the immigration lists here as an Assisted Immigrant, last name is Nilsson . I would say that is what she would have used in Sweden.
I shall have another try . let you know the outcome.
thanks again you are just fantastic to help.
Essnell.
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Hi Jamcat95 and PaulineJ,
Tried anc'stry , my 'eritage and family 1st to no avail. Best results were using Genarp
Essnell
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Here is Karen Nilsson from the Danish Emigration records:
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and Carl August Schmidt:
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I haven't had much luck in finding her at all so I'll post the links to the Parishes in question:
Genarp:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o3l/
Hjärnarp:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o3m/
Ian
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Also this database for the south of Sweden which I must add does not have all records:
http://ddss.nu/
Ian
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Hi Jamcat95,
How great is this? You have done a marvelous job and thank you so much. I now have the best evidence of their coming from these places. So I am really really pleased.
It is a bit of a love story in the end. The ship docked in Rockhampton and they married there.
They had a son in 1879 - Harry William Schmidt - I would say "Henry" in reality. Unfortunately he died in 1881.
I will keep all the links to archives etc and check periodically for Karin. That would be the Icing on the cake.. but not for now.
One day I will tackle her mother and father.
Thanks Ian
Essnell
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The other find is the Birth Record which is totally WOW. Can I ask - Is his mother Anna Olsen ? Because they have used jensen on doc here in Australia. so just checking. It looks like the previous word is the same on other entries on the page and the "o" is a capital. Is it in German or Danish?
Hi
Do you have his parents' names?
Ian
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I'm not sure if there is any extra info of the departures from Hamburg.
https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/hamburgpl_full/
I can see a Karren Lassen departing that year. some of those records do have a home/street address.
No sub at the moment
Pauline
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Hi Jamcar95,
Yes< I do have his parents. they were given as:-
Carl Wilhelm Schmidt and Anna Jensen
On the birth Cert you found for him in copenhagen the father is exactly right.
Hi mother has Anna as the given name and I think the Last name is Olsen. Am I right on this. Would the word preceding this one be "formerly" or what would be used for that.
Even so I think that this is actually his record.
thanks again
Essnell
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Hi PaulineJ,
Thankyou for looking into the Hamburg Achives.
I followed the link but the details given do not fit anything related to Karin. So I don't think any of them are her.
Essnell
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It says Anna née Olsen.
Ian
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Hi Essnell
Could you also look up on Ancestry the following 5 Karna emigrants:
All from "Sweden, Emigrants Registered in Church Books, 1783-1991"
Karna Nilsson going to Köpenhamn Danmark
Karna Nilsdotter going to Bornholm Danmark
Karna Nilsdotter going to Köpenhamn Danmark
Karna Nilsdotter going to Danmark
Karna Nilsdotter going to Danmark
Thank you.
Ian
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Also, where did you get Karen's parents' names from.
Ian
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Carl August and family in the 1870 Copenhagen Census:
http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=11861485
Ian
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Carl August and family in the 1860 Copenhagen Census:
http://ao.sa.dk/ao/data.ashx?bid=248700
Ian
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HI Jamcar95,
You have been busy again.. thankyou..
I shall look up those Karna immigrations shortly. It is just mid morning here. I will let you know what I find.
I got karin's parents' names off the marriage certificate for Karin and Carl from Queensland, Australia. I purchased the Certificate. it would have information only as they supplied and then recorded by, in this case, the Minister who performed the marriage. They were married in the Primitive Methodist Church.
i have been wondering lately if Carl August had any family, so those Census records are another great find by you. I have yet to look at them. Thank you again.
I will post the info on Karna later
Cheers
Essnell
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Hi Jamcat95,
i have done the searching. I am not able to specify a particular part of Denmark for arrival Just Danmark
for Karna Nilsson 8 records [6 arrival Denmark 1 arrival Kopenhamn 1 arrival Bornholm]
for Karna Nilsdotter there are 16 records. :-
[6 arrival Denmark 6 arrival Kopenhamn 3 arrival Bornholm]
Under Karna Nilsson there are two Karin one is married one is not.
This unmarried one left from Kronoberg, Agunnayrd year 1874 on 21st December to Danmark - no other place recorded. She was born in 1853 which makes her 21 yrs old unmarried and traveling alone.
I am not sure what you expected to find but I hope the above is helpful. I have add the links to the results below
https://www.ancestry.com.au/search/collections/swedishemigrantindex/?name=Karna_Nilsson&birth=1858&arrival=_denmark_5071&arrival_x=_1-0&departure=1870_sweden_5216&departure_x=5-0-0&f-Self-MaritalStatus=Unmarried&gender=f&_phtarg=Bpo2167%2CBpo2168
https://www.ancestry.com.au/search/collections/swedishemigrantindex/?name=Karna_Nilsdotter&birth=1858&arrival=_denmark_5071&arrival_x=_1-0&departure=1870_sweden_5216&departure_x=5-0-0&f-Self-MaritalStatus=Unmarried&gender=f
I have examined both Census recs and those are simply great. he has a family!!
thanks
Essnell
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Hi
Thanks for that.
I was hoping that the Parish was recorded. I have a feeling that the given names are incorrect. I might be wrong but I just cannot find a link to them. The place name Jenarp is an odd one. Is it a Parish or a village/farm. There is a Gonarp and a Jonarp in Näsum Parish. I have looked there without success.
I also wonder how her surname was, I mean, was she a daughter of a Nils or just used her father's surname Nilsson. I have seen a father's christian and surname swapped before meaning that he may well have been a Lars Nilsson.
I believe also that her christian name might well have been Karna and she changed it to Karen when she left for Australia.
Can you post all their children's names please, it might help a little.
Ian
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Hi Jamcar95
Children of Carl August Schmidt and Karin Neilssen [[Spelling as used mostly here]
Harry William Schmidt born 1879 Rockhampton, Qld. Australia. Mother's name Karen Neilssen
died 1880 as Henry William Schmidt mother Karen Neilsen.
Edmund Wilhelm Schmidt born 1881 Rockhampton, Queensland, Australia. Mother's name Kate
Agnes Gertrude Schmidt born 1883 Rockhampton, Queensland, Australia. Mothers name Kate Neilssen
August Henry {Edgar} Schmidt born 1885 Emerald, Queensland, Australia .
Mother's name Karin Nelson.
I can supply the Queensland Registration Nos if required.
To family Karin was known as Kate.
Hope this is of some help.
Going back to those Karna records there are place names that they left from would these help.
And which ones would you need to see?
thanks again
Essnell.
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Hi again JAmcar95,
Missed this in reply; I was given the name Jenarp by my elderly Grand Aunt. It is also on their son's Birth Certificate [Edmund Wilhelm Schmidt]. i have no idea of where it is or if it is a farm, Parish, Town or what.
On the marriage certificate for Carl and Karin karin's birth place is given and Jonarp.
what I can do is get one of the other children's birth certificate and see what that says.
I will let you know asap. It can be got online as a pdf photocopy.
Essnell
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HI Jamcat95,
does this help any.... i have looked up the place on google as Jenarp comes up as Genarp.
Now given these people came here 150 yrs ago it has occurred to me that places may have changed so looked up Jenarp as in 1870's name comes up as Jernarp which is then renamed to
Hjä́rnap the Pastorat [parish] is Hjärnarp och Tästarp ..
The whole thing was in Swedish, so I am hoping I have got it right.
Regards
Essnell
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Hi
Jenarp is pronounced "yearnarp" in Swedish. Genarp is also pronounced "yearnarp". So I am really believe she came from Genarp, but I cannot find her.
Ian
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Hi Jamcat95,
I have just downloaded the birth cert for Harry William born December 1879 .His mother's name is Karen formerly Neilssen and her place of origin is still Jenarp which I believe should have been spelt Genarp.
Now the "formerly" wording is not on Edmund's certificate.
I am wondering if , for some reason, she had decided to just up and leave and used whatever name she thought sounded Ok.
I have been looking for the parents Nils Larssen and Christina Jensen but not getting anywhere.
Did Sweden have census recs of a sort between 1855 and 1875, that might show something!?
Please do not fret over the Census just curious .
Thanks again for all the lookups and what has been found.
Cheers Essnell
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Hi
At last I have found her. All I can say for now is that the was illegitimate and had also an illegitimate child herself which died very young. I am on holiday at the moment and don't have access to a computer. I will post my findings in a couple of days.
I had to start again re-thinking that she may have been illegitimate and she was.
Ian
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Hi Jamcat95,
Wow! Absolutely brilliant.
I cannot say how good this is. Enjoy your holiday you deserve It .. Post when you get back.
Essnell
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Hi
1857 6 Aug - Karna's (Karen) Birth - Genarp Parish - nr 46:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o4g/
1871 - Household Examination Book - Genarp Parish - Karen - nr 22:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o4h/
Nils Larsson is on row 18.
1874 - Household Examination Book - Västra Alstad Parish - Karen - nr 12:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o4i/
1875 - Household Examination Book - Malmö St Petri Parish - Karen - nr 22:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o4j/
1877 - Household Examination Book - Kropps Parish - Karen - nr 19:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o4k/
1878 - Household Examination Book - Bjuvs Parish - Karen - nr 2:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o4l/
"Certificate to Australia dated 23 Aug 1878" is recorded.
1878 - Household Examination Book - Bjuvs Parish - Karen - nr 24:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o4m/
"Australia" is recorded.
Ian
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Christine Westerdahl (Jönsdotter):
1824 22 Nov - Christine Jönsdotter - Skurups Parish - Father Jöns Westerdahl:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o4n/
1880 - Household Examination Book - Genarp Parish - Christine - nr 22:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o4o/
At top is divorced Lars Nilsson.
Ian
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Karna Nilsdotter and Olof:
1877 9 Mar - Illegitimate - Birth Olof - Kropps Parish - nr 5:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o4p/
1877 18 Apr - Death Olof - Kropps Parish - nr 14:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o4q/
Recorded: "Cause of death concealed. Body found 6 May dead in chest".
Ian
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Hi Jamcat95.
What a sad and awful life she had up until she left.
Thank you so much for persevering and finding these records. I now have a person and a life behind the name.
I never knew Karin[Karna] . She died long before I was born.
Seems she met another man and it seems she lived with him. Yet to find a marriage but she died using his surname which is not usual here in Australia.
I have just found the new marriage, 1908 in Brisbane, 11 yrs before Carl August died.
Now to see if she divorced him or WHAT?
Thank you so much for all you have done. I am very appreciative of your time and effort.
Essnell
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Cheers and you're welcome. I can be a wee bit stubborn at times.
I assume you are from Australia, if so, you don't happen to watch the Ashes cricket by any chance?
I am just waiting for day 3 to start and a whole day of cricket in front of me.
Ian
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Hi
Yes I am from Australia and I do follow the cricket. I watch the tests at times, depends on whether I have family around. We have a summer series here between the states and one that has teams from the major cities BBL ie Big Bash League. those are usually day/night events like 20/20and are really exciting. The guys playing those really slog the ball in an attempt to send it out of the oval and into the stands or wherever.
The spectators then try to catch it. Seems to be a issue. don't know if they get anything or not for doing so.
I like Australia to win but if they do not play well and get beaten ..such is life.
Being an Aussie is a bit of a two edged thing for me as most of my immediate past family are all from England or Ireland with a smattering of this Danish Swedish line. So I get a bit torn between the two.
Enjoy the cricket
Thanks again for all you have found. After putting all this in perspective I will consider the next way to go.
Essnell
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Hello Jamcat95,
Hope you see this post. I am after some help with the following: Post no#42 that you made part of below
Christine Westerdahl (Jönsdotter):
1824 22 Nov - Christine Jönsdotter - Skurups Parish - Father Jöns Westerdahl:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o4n/
I am having some trouble actually making complete sense of all the names it contains
I have Christina Jönsdotter who is also Christina Westerdahal her father being Jons Westerdahal. There are also these persons:
Anna Rassminsdotter
Elena Jappal Dotter
Pigan Mastta Jönsdotter
They are numbered as in No2 or no3 and referred to Can you explain what was recorded.
I suspect they might be relatives or godparents etc.
sorry to be a pest. It has me very curious.
Thanks Jamcat95 or anyone else who might help with this bit.
Essnell
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Hi,
No problems.
Translation:
November 22 born and christened 23.
Blacksmith Jöns Westerdahl and his wife Hanna Rasmusdotter's daughter from house Nr2 Sandåkra named Christina.
Schoolmaster's wife Elna Jeppesdotter from Nr1 Sandåkra Näs.
Witnesses: Farmer Lars Mårtensson at Nr15 Sandåkra, Blacksmith journeyman Nils Ahlström at Nr2 - Farm-maid Mätta Jönsdotter from Nr3. Farm-maid Anna Rasmusdotter from Nr1.
Mother 23 years old.
Ian
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Hi,
Thanks Ian, that is really great. Didn't get it all that clear but it was a tad blured. Now I know the whole story.
Here in Australia I have found that she married again in 1908 but Carl August did not die till 1919.
Karin died quite some time after Carl and was buried with her new name Eggert.
Thus there is still a bit more to find out.
Thankyou again
Cheers
Essnell.
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Cheers Essnell,
Anymore queries?...... just ask away.
Ian
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Hi Essnell,
I am from Sweden and I have further info as to your relative Karin Nilsson born 1857 in Genarp.
Paul
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Hi Paul,
I don't quite know what to say here. I never expected to get any further information on any of what is in this thread. Jamcat95 has been a tremendous help and I am really grateful to him. Thank you for contacting me.
As time has passed a little I have begun to wonder about other's who may be in Sweden.
Did you see my reply on your first post?
Karna has been so difficult to track down so I am quite surprised by of this.
I am going to PM you.
Kind regards
Essnell
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Hi again,
My name is Paul Krill and I was born in Malmo a city in Skåne which is the southmost province in Sweden. My mothers mother and her husband were both born about 15 km from Genarp.
The real background for my contact is that I had a DNA-test and found to my surprise that I have quite som matches in Australia. I also have a genealogy friend and relative who made the same experience. When we then found out that Karna - a past relative of us - emigrated to Australia 1878, we began to search for her. I googled on something (?) and stumbled across Rootschat and your search for the background of Karna. This seemed as a real luck stroke.
Karna was as you know the daughter of man with the first name Nils - thus the family name Nilsdotter. Karna is the local version of the Swedish name Karin in Skåne. When she emigrated she altered her name to Karin Nilsson. I have then read your comment that she was called Kate within the family in Australia.
I will be most glad to share details as to Karna incuding her larger Swedish family - incuding parts of the family tree). (If I will be successful with sending this message to you.
By the way: I used the word "follower" as a translation of the Swedish "efterföljare".
Best regards
Paul