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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Broderer on Wednesday 31 July 19 19:33 BST (UK)

Title: Family members
Post by: Broderer on Wednesday 31 July 19 19:33 BST (UK)
Iím searching for any information about the Matthews/Kennard family from Hurstpierpoint in Sussex. My lovely grandfather was a Kennard.
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Treetotal on Wednesday 31 July 19 20:24 BST (UK)
Hi and welcome to RootsChat, it's a good idea to tell us what you know about the family that you are researching, such as dates and places of birth, death and marriage if known.
Carole
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Liz_in_Sussex on Wednesday 31 July 19 20:53 BST (UK)
Welcome from me too!

There's a marriage between Henry William Kennard and Mercy Matthews in Clayton in 1883 - could this be them?

Clayton is the next parish along from Hurst (and very beautiful too!).

Liz
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Broderer on Wednesday 31 July 19 21:34 BST (UK)
Yes, Henry & Mercy Kennard were my great grandparents, parents of my grandfather Albert Edward. I would like to find more about Albertís siblings, Maud, Philip, Hilda & Eva.
It would be brilliant if I could find any more descendants, possibly some who are still alive.
Ann
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: crisane on Wednesday 31 July 19 21:45 BST (UK)
1891 Piece 793 Folio 58 age 13
Gate House north Hurstpierpoint
Henry Kennard    29 Carpenter Chailey Sussex
Mercy Kennard 32 St Johns, Sussex,
Maud Kennard 7 St Johns, Sussex,
Philip Kennard 6 St Johns, Sussex,
Albert Kennard 4 Hurstpierpoint
Hilda Kennard 1 Hurstpierpoint
Eva Kennard 6 months Hurstpierpoint
Elizabeth Penfold 16 geberal servant

Mercy becomes Mary in the 1901 and 1911 censuses.
Philip Arthur worked for the railways. and died age 88 Oct 1972 (born 14 October 1884) Philip

In 1911 Henry was an Inn keeper at the Sportmans Inn Hurstpierpoint Sussex
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: avm228 on Wednesday 31 July 19 21:48 BST (UK)
Fleshing out with dates, places of birth registration:

Maud Mildred Kennard mmn Matthews, Dec qtr 1883 Cuckfield
Philip Arthur Kennard mmn Matthews, Dec qtr 1884 Cuckfield
Albert William Kennard mmn Matthews, Dec qtr 1886 Cuckfield
Henry Howard Kennard mmn Matthews, Jun qtr 1888 Cuckfield [died same quarter]
Hilda Kennard mmn Matthews, Sep qtr 1889 Cuckfield
Eva Nora Kennard mmn Matthews, Dec qtr 1890 Cuckfield
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: avm228 on Wednesday 31 July 19 21:52 BST (UK)
Eva Kennard married Frank Whitington, Mar qtr 1920 Cuckfield.

Likely death as Eva Nora Whitington, Sep qtr 1977 Worthing (birthdate 17 Oct 1890).
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Treetotal on Wednesday 31 July 19 22:42 BST (UK)
Philip Arthur Kennard married Rebecca Holland in Brighton in 1912 and he died in Worthing in 1972.
In 1901 age 16, his occupation was  Carter Boy on a Farm.
In 1939 his occupation was Chimney Sweep.
Carol
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: crisane on Thursday 01 August 19 02:20 BST (UK)
Hilda Kennard
Baptised    1 Sept 1889
at Hurstperpoint, Sussex,
Father - Henry Kennard
Mother - Mercy
FHL Film 2147084

have to e careful with Hilda because there is another Hilda Kennard baptised 9 Nov 1890 Sompting, Sussex daughter of Edward and Deretta Kennard.
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Broderer on Thursday 01 August 19 09:05 BST (UK)
Iím rather confused now because one account says that Philip Kennard worked on the railways & another says that he was a chimney sweep. I suppose he could have been doing both jobs.
Ann
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 01 August 19 14:02 BST (UK)
1915 Trade Directories show Philip Arthur Kennard worked on the Railways, May in Newhaven and December in Hay.

1930 Trade Directories and again in 1939 show his occupation as Chimney Sweep in Anstye.

Carol
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 01 August 19 15:06 BST (UK)
There is also this:

 in the UK, Naval Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1972

 Naval Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1972

Name:   Philip A Kennard
Medal or Award:   Victory Medal, British War Medal
Service Year:   1914-1920
Service Location:   Europe
Campaign or Service:   World War I
Service Number:   6713/Ts

Carol
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Broderer on Thursday 01 August 19 15:16 BST (UK)
Hello Carol,
I wonder if this is the same Philip Kennard. I have a record of someone with that name being awarded medals in WW1 but have never been able to prove that it was him.
Regards
Ann
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 01 August 19 15:21 BST (UK)
Unfortunately there are no other Military records for him  ::)

There is also this:

Name:   Albert William Kennard
Military Year:   1914-1920
Rank:   Private
Medal Awarded:   British War Medal and Victory Medal
Regiment or Corps:   Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex) Regiment
Regimental Number:   PW/4948
Previous Units:   PW/4948, 26th Middx. Pte.

Again...there were no enlistment papers for him that I could find, over 60% of WW1 records were destroyed in the WW2 Blitz  ::)

Neither can have served abroad as they weren't awarded the 14/15 Star.

Both have middle names listed and whilst there are other Philips and Alberts with the same surname and without middle names, there doesn't seem to be births for the same year and location as these two brothers.

There is, however, an Albert W. Kennard born 1884 in Uckfield, Sussex.

Carol
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Broderer on Thursday 01 August 19 16:40 BST (UK)
Hello again Carol
There was always some mystery in the family about this. I was led to believe that Albert William died as a baby & my grandad was called Albert after him but was given Edward as a middle name. However, I have an army issue prayer book with the name Albert W Kennard in the front inside cover. Grandad was always very vague about it when I mentioned his family to him. Iíll probably never know the true story on that one.
Ann
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 01 August 19 16:50 BST (UK)
Hello again Carol
There was always some mystery in the family about this. I was led to believe that Albert William died as a baby & my grandad was called Albert after him but was given Edward as a middle name. However, I have an army issue prayer book with the name Albert W Kennard in the front inside cover. Grandad was always very vague about it when I mentioned his family to him. Iíll probably never know the true story on that one.
Ann

How odd.

It looks tolerably clear that Albert William Kennard didn't die as a baby.

Birth reg Dec qtr 1886 Cuckfield: Albert William Kennard mmn Matthews
Aged 4 in 1891 - with parents.
Aged 14 in 1901 - with parents.

Then the 1911 index shows an Albert "Eward" Kennard a couple of years younger - is that him in disguise?

Do you have his marriage and death details?
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 01 August 19 16:51 BST (UK)
Hi Ann...maybe he is getting mixed up with Henry Howard who was born and died in 1888. I would take that as proof that he did in fact enlist.

Carol
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Broderer on Thursday 01 August 19 17:12 BST (UK)
Hello again
Grandad served in WW1 with the Queens Regiment based in Guildford, Surrey & saw service in Afghanistan. He was in the Khyber pass & I know this is correct because I have photos of him there.
He married Amy Ethel Constable about 1915 & died about 1980. Sorry, I havenít got the exact dates to hand.
Iíve just looked out his medals & he hasnít got the 2 you mentioned for Albert William.
This is all very weird.
He talked about Hilda & Gretch, his sisters but whether Gretch was a nickname for Maud or Eva, I havenít a clue. He never talked about his brothers.
Ann
 
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 01 August 19 17:14 BST (UK)
Albert Edward Kennard married Amy Ethel Constable, Jun qtr 1914 West Ham.

12 April 1904 at St Paul's, Stratford - naming his father as William Kennard.
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 01 August 19 17:18 BST (UK)
Do you know (even vaguely) where he died c1980?
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 01 August 19 17:29 BST (UK)
I see he was using the name Albert W Kennard (b 1886) just before the war when listed with Amy.
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: avm228 on Thursday 01 August 19 17:32 BST (UK)
I see he was using the name Albert W Kennard (b 1886) just before the war when listed with Amy.

Presumably therefore this is his death registration?

Albert Kennard b 5 September 1886 - Mar qtr 1980 Surrey SW vol17 p1479.
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Broderer on Thursday 01 August 19 17:53 BST (UK)
I know exactly where he died. The Royal Surrey County Hospital, Guildford. I was heartbroken as he was my father figure all my life. I had seen him just a couple of days before he died because I lived along the road from his house. Mum had just given him his Sunday lunch & when she went back to collect his plates, he had fallen & was unconscious. He never regained consciousness. I still miss him a lot.
Ann
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 01 August 19 18:02 BST (UK)
Albert Edward Kennard married Amy Ethel Constable, Jun qtr 1914 West Ham.

12 April 1904 at St Paul's, Stratford - naming his father as William Kennard.

This transcription has Albertís surname Hennard father Henry

Amy Ethel Constable , S, father William Constable, baker
Residence   119 Crownfield
Marriage date   12 Apr 1914 Place   Stratford, St Paul County   Essex
Spouse Albert Edward   Hennard
Spouse's marital status   B
Spouse's residence   Slade Villas New Road Comelsdale Lynchase
Spouse's father    Henry Hennard, farmer
Essex Record Office
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 01 August 19 18:23 BST (UK)


Grandad served in WW1 with the Queens Regiment based in Guildford, Surrey & saw service in Afghanistan.

He was in the Khyber pass & I know this is correct because I have photos of him there

Iíve just looked out his medals & he hasnít got the 2 you mentioned for Albert William.

This is all very weird.


Medals were impressed with the name of the recipient and usually included some or all of the following:

service number, rank,
first name or initial,
surname and military unit (Regiment or Corps). This was either on the rim of the medal or in the case of a star, on the reverse.

Could you tell us what is on Albertís medals
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 01 August 19 20:12 BST (UK)
I see he was using the name Albert W Kennard (b 1886) just before the war when listed with Amy.

Trying to establish if Albert Edward was Albert William there are these Electoral register entries

192O - 1935
address The Bungalow  Critchmere
Albert Edward Kennard
Amy Ethel Kennard in 1936/37  their address 22 Critchmere Hill
same address 1938/39 also with them Jack Edward Kennard

Mr Jack Edward Kennard Age:   93
Birth Date:   1917
Death Date:   23 Mar 2010

Jack E Kennard
Registration Quarter:   -Mar 1917
Registration district:   Farnham
Mother's Maiden Name:   Constable
Volume Number:   2a Page Number:   245

1945 - 49
address Higher Coombe Lodge Grayswood Hill
Albert W Kennard
Amy E Kennard

Surrey, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1962
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 01 August 19 20:35 BST (UK)
I have just noticed that another child B M Kennard  born 1922 mn Constable she appears to have married a Nixon in 1941

B M Nixon is with Albert W & Amy E Kennard 1945 - 1949 address Higher Coombe Lodge
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Broderer on Thursday 01 August 19 22:12 BST (UK)
Yes, most of this information is right. B Kennard was my Mum and she & I lived in Higher Coombe Lodge with my grandparents after my Dad left us & returned to Canada. The dates are not quite right. We moved there about 1943 and left about 1954. Grandad was employed as caretaker to the WRNís establishment there & the house went with the job.
Ann
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Broderer on Friday 02 August 19 10:05 BST (UK)
Albert & Amy moved to Higher Coombe Lodge in 1940. I discovered this last night when I was looking through my Granís birthday book.
Ann
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Ladyhawk on Friday 02 August 19 10:05 BST (UK)

The dates are not quite right. We moved there about 1943 and left about 1954. Grandad was employed as caretaker to the WRNís establishment there & the house went with the job.

I didn't check all the ER dates for the Kennard's

Registers were not published during the latter years of World War 1 (1916Ė1917) or World War 2 (1940Ė1944)

Albert W & Amy E Kennard are at that address in 1956 and from 1956 onwards
there is an
Albert Kennard (no middle initial) & Amy E Kennard living at 12 Parsons Green

Do you have his birth certificate stating his middle name?

Quote
Albert William Kennard mmn Matthews, Dec qtr 1886 Cuckfield

You have his medals  - I asked about them (reply 24)

Is his name written in full or initials?

I don't think we'll know why the change of his middle name from William-Edward-William



Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Treetotal on Friday 02 August 19 10:24 BST (UK)
Unfortunately there are no other Military records for him  ::)

There is also this:

Name:   Albert William Kennard
Military Year:   1914-1920
Rank:   Private
Medal Awarded:   British War Medal and Victory Medal
Regiment or Corps:   Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex) Regiment
Regimental Number:   PW/4948
Previous Units:   PW/4948, 26th Middx. Pte.

Again...there were no enlistment papers for him that I could find, over 60% of WW1 records were destroyed in the WW2 Blitz  ::)

Carol

If you look for a name on the edge of the medals you have as Ladyhawk has suggested then it will confirm whether this record is your relative.

Carol
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Treetotal on Friday 02 August 19 10:38 BST (UK)
Here are pictures and information on the medals awarded at the end of  WW1 :

http://www.greatwar.co.uk/medals/ww1-campaign-medals.htm

Carol
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Broderer on Friday 02 August 19 15:09 BST (UK)
Hello Carol
Have just got Grandadís medals out and the following is what I have found.
He does have the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. Details round the rim of each medal
242479 Pte A Kennard The Queenís R or 4 Queenís R L R
His other medal has India on one side and what looks like a palace or fortress with mountains in the back round. There is a bar on the ribbon which reads Afghanistan N.W.I 1919. Details round the rim
242479 Pte A Kennard Queenís R L R
Ann
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Ladyhawk on Friday 02 August 19 20:43 BST (UK)

Have just got Grandadís medals out and the following is what I have found.

He does have the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. Details round the rim of each medal
242479 Pte A Kennard The Queenís R or 4 Queenís R L R

His other medal has India on one side and what looks like a palace or fortress with mountains in the back round.
There is a bar on the ribbon which reads Afghanistan N.W.I 1919. Details round the rim
242479 Pte A Kennard Queenís R L R
Ann

How wonderful that you have his medals - Iíve had a look on Anc and his army record
nor his medal card for his BWM or VM do not appear

Is this the Afghanistan medal you have
https://www.bandgcoins.co.uk/product/george-v-india-general-service-medal-clasp-afghanistan-n-w-f-1919/

Edit

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_General_Service_Medal_(1909)

The reverse depicts Jamrud Fort at the Khyber Pass with the word ĎIndiaí below between a wreath of oak and olive branches

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Anglo-Afghan_War
The Third Anglo-Afghan War also known as the Third Afghan War, the British-Afghan war of 1919 and in Afghanistan as the War of Independence, began on 6 May 1919 when the Emirate of Afghanistan invaded British India and ended with an armistice on 8 August 1919.
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Broderer on Friday 02 August 19 21:31 BST (UK)
Yes, that is it exactly. Thank you for doing so much research for me. I really appreciate it.
Still havenít been able to sort out the A E or A W Kennard. I have my Granís birthday book & for the 5th September it says A W Kennard. That was Grandadís birthday but why would she put A W Kennard & not Albert or Bert as she called him. Very strange.
Ann
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Treetotal on Friday 02 August 19 22:26 BST (UK)
Great work Ladyhawk....I too searched for any matching medal cards and couldn't find any information that matched the details given, but information on soldiers who fought in WW1 can be patchy unfortunately.
I have been searching this afternoon under both names  and can't add any more than I have already found. I don't think The mystery Over the name change will never be explained.
Carol
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: crisane on Saturday 03 August 19 00:12 BST (UK)
Medal Roll Index card
Albert Kennard
Regiment or Corps:    Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment
Regimental Number - T/242479

It says Stamped -  - IND - GS . AFN. NWFF. 1919. (ROLL 16682 - 25)
Then handwritten with a line through it
 IGS/India/Queens R/1 50} issued in India
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: crisane on Saturday 03 August 19 00:20 BST (UK)
 UK, WWI Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920
Albert Kennard
Military Year 1914-1920
Rank Private
Medal Awarded - British War Medal and Victory Medal
Regiment or Corps - Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment
Regimental Number - T/242479
Previous Units - 1/4th RWS. T/242479 Pte

Very unlikely to be a service record for him as 60% plus of WW1 service records were destroyed by bombing/fre and water damage in WW11
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Treetotal on Saturday 03 August 19 10:13 BST (UK)
How strange:
From Freebmd:

Kennard    Albert William        Cuckfield    2b   160    
Births Jun 1887   
Kennard    Albert Frank        Kingsbridge    5b   207
Births Sep 1887   
KENNARD    Albert Edward        Hastings    2b   21    
KENNARD    Albert Victor        Bath    5c   577   
Births Dec 1887 
Kennard    Albert Ernest        Leicester    7a   277   

Carol
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: avm228 on Saturday 03 August 19 10:17 BST (UK)
How strange:
From Freebmd:

Kennard    Albert William        Cuckfield    2b   160    
Births Jun 1887   
Kennard    Albert Frank        Kingsbridge    5b   207
Births Sep 1887   
KENNARD    Albert Edward        Hastings    2b   21    
KENNARD    Albert Victor        Bath    5c   577   
Births Dec 1887 
Kennard    Albert Ernest        Leicester    7a   277   

Carol

Separate people.  I think the Hastings one died very young.

Honestly I think this ďmysteryĒ is just a case of preferring a different middle name for a while, nothing more dramatic than that.  Itís highly unlikely any record will exist explaining why.
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 03 August 19 14:44 BST (UK)

Medal Roll Index card
Albert Kennard
Regiment or Corps:    Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment
Regimental Number - T/242479

It says Stamped -  - IND - GS . AFN. NWFF. 1919. (ROLL 16682 - 25)

Then handwritten with a line through it
 IGS/India/Queens R/1 50} issued in India


 UK, WWI Service Medal and Award Rolls, 1914-1920
Albert Kennard
Military Year 1914-1920
Rank Private
Medal Awarded - British War Medal and Victory Medal
Regiment or Corps - Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment
Regimental Number - T/242479
Previous Units - 1/4th RWS. T/242479 Pte

Very unlikely to be a service record for him as 60% plus of WW1 service records were destroyed by bombing/fre and water damage in WW11

Well found Crisane - where did you find them? Edit - I can see now it was on Anc*y
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 03 August 19 14:58 BST (UK)
Ann - this maybe of interest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Battalion,_Queen%27s_Royal_Regiment_(West_Surrey)
snippet from above
The 4th Battalion, Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surrey) (4th Queen's) was a volunteer unit of the British Army from 1859 to 1961.
Beginning from small independent units recruited in the South London suburbs, it was attached to the Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surrey) and served in the Second Boer War, World War I and Third Anglo-Afghan War.
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Treetotal on Saturday 03 August 19 15:10 BST (UK)
Yes...well done Crisane...I couldn't find it either, missed it too.
Carol
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Treetotal on Saturday 03 August 19 15:14 BST (UK)
Albert Edward Kennard married Amy Ethel Constable, Jun qtr 1914 West Ham.

12 April 1904 at St Paul's, Stratford - naming his father as William Kennard.

This transcription has Albertís surname Hennard father Henry

Amy Ethel Constable , S, father William Constable, baker
Residence   119 Crownfield
Marriage date   12 Apr 1914 Place   Stratford, St Paul County   Essex
Spouse Albert Edward   Hennard
Spouse's marital status   B
Spouse's residence   Slade Villas New Road Comelsdale Lynchase
Spouse's father    Henry Hennard, farmer
Essex Record Office


One tree shows Albert's Father as  Henry William

Carol
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 03 August 19 15:33 BST (UK)
Albert Edward Kennard married Amy Ethel Constable, Jun qtr 1914 West Ham.

12 April 1904 at St Paul's, Stratford - naming his father as William Kennard.

This transcription has Albertís surname Hennard father Henry

Amy Ethel Constable , S, father William Constable, baker
Residence   119 Crownfield
Marriage date   12 Apr 1914 Place   Stratford, St Paul County   Essex
Spouse Albert Edward   Hennard
Spouse's marital status   B
Spouse's residence   Slade Villas New Road Comelsdale Lynchase
Spouse's father    Henry Hennard, farmer
Essex Record Office

One tree shows Albert's Father as  Henry William


Yes his name was Henry William he married Mercy Matthews

England Marriages 1538-1973

Henry William KENNARD age 21 Father Philip Kennard
Marriage year   1883  Marriage place   Clayton
Spouse Mercy MATTHEWS age 24 father  Thomas Matthews
Residence   Clayton, Sussex, England
Title: Re: Family members
Post by: Broderer on Saturday 03 August 19 22:11 BST (UK)
Thank you for everyoneís help.
I have just looked at my grandadís birth certificate & it says that his name was Albert William but on his marriage certificate it says Albert Edward & his age as 24 as of 12th April 1914, their wedding day. He would have been 25 on September 5th but the years are wrong. Iím none the wiser & as you say, a mystery which Iíll probably never solve.
Ann