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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Deb Clark Rennie on Thursday 01 August 19 14:48 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I’m helping my brother in law with his family tree. I’m working on the Williss branch in his tree his ancestor being John Williss. The only census he appears on is 1841 along with his wife Elizabeth. He’s listed as a publican and farmer and the address says near the churches. I also find him on the poll book and electoral registers under Rugeley it says house and occupier Talbot Inn and Farm. I’m fairly sure I have his death as 1849 and his wife Elizabeth is a widow on the 1851 census and she is listed as Innkeeper/farmer 92 acres. Later on I find her son John as innkeeper and when he dies his widow Eliza as Innkeeper of the Mosley Inn.
What I’m trying to find out is there two Talbot Inn’s. One seems to remain today but there is also seems to be another one that was the scene of a murder by the Rugeley poisoner but that one had a name change to the Shrew. I’m just trying to work out which one John Williss senior might have been Innkeeper of in the 1840’s. As most of the baptism and marriage records are only transcripts they don’t help much.
Any help would be appreciated.
Blessings
Deb
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Sorry I cant help with that but on John/Elizabeths 1st childs Bapt, HARRIET 16 May 1824, John is a Gardener and their abode is Hagley.
Same for JOHN 19 Dec 1825
By JANE 06 Aug 1828 he is a Innkeeper (Jane buried 01 Apr 1829 age 8 mths)
FRANCIS 25 Jul 1830, Innkeeper (buried 09 May 1832 age 1 and a half)
FRANCIS 17 Oct 1838, Publican (buried 23 Jan 1839 age 4 mths)
JOHN was buried 18 Apr 1849 age 57 and Daug Harriet 11 Sep 1848 age 24
+ Elizabeth 28 Nov 1855 age 56
Gosh how sad that John 1825 was the only one to survive and marry.
Trish :)
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JOHN Willis Bapt 15 Jan 1792, St Peter, Abbots Morton, Worcestershire to JOHN/MARY
Siblings;
EDWARD 12 May 1794
AMELIA 18 Jul 1803
DINAH 07 Dec 1806
John WILLIS married Mary SHEPEARD 26 Oct 1791 same Church
2 possible Burials for JOHN;
09 Nov 1810 Yeoman
31 Aug 1823 age 58 (1765)
MARY likely buried 14 Jul 1846 age 75 (1771)
All on FreeREG under Willis/Williss
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Hi, I lived in Rugeley for several years and I believe the Shrewsbury Arms was once called the Talbot. It was once a coaching inn. Palmer the poisoner did commit murder there. St. Augustines Church is a walk away. The other Talbot is/was in Brereton just out of Rugeley on the way to Lichfield, from memory I think there was also a church nearby.
The above probably doesn't help you though. The Shrew is in the centre of town now and the Talbot a bit further out.
Added: The church in Brereton is called St. Michaels. On Main Road the same road as the Talbot.
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Sorry I cant help with that but on John/Elizabeths 1st childs Bapt, HARRIET 16 May 1824, John is a Gardener and their abode is Hagley.
Same for JOHN 19 Dec 1825
By JANE 06 Aug 1828 he is a Innkeeper (Jane buried 01 Apr 1829 age 8 mths)
FRANCIS 25 Jul 1830, Innkeeper (buried 09 May 1832 age 1 and a half)
FRANCIS 17 Oct 1838, Publican (buried 23 Jan 1839 age 4 mths)
JOHN was buried 18 Apr 1849 age 57 and Daug Harriet 11 Sep 1848 age 24
+ Elizabeth 28 Nov 1855 age 56
Gosh how sad that John 1825 was the only one to survive and marry.
Trish :)
Gosh thanks for that ... I had found Harriet but not the others that is sad that only John survived ... lucky for my brother in law or he wouldn’t be here!
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Hi, I lived in Rugeley for several years and I believe the Shrewsbury Arms was once called the Talbot. It was once a coaching inn. Palmer the poisoner did commit murder there. St. Augustines Church is a walk away. The other Talbot is/was in Brereton just out of Rugeley on the way to Lichfield, from memory I think there was also a church nearby.
The above probably doesn't help you though. The Shrew is in the centre of town now and the Talbot a bit further out.
Added: The church in Brereton is called St. Michaels. On Main Road the same road as the Talbot.
That does help as it does show there was two called the Talbot and I’m thinking if there was a farm as well perhaps it’s more likely the Williss family were out of town? On future census they are on Armitage road and Wolsey.
Funnily enough I was just reading about the poising and two of the surnames mention are Bamford and Cheshire. John juniors mother was a Bamford and after her father died her mother remarried into the Cheshire family.
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Well I'm familiar with Wolseley Road because I used to live there ;D further down that road going towards town is St. Augustines Church on the corner.
Armitage Road is interesting because it's nearer to Brereton. I'm wondering if it would that Talbot where the farm would be because it was a little further out.
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Well I'm familiar with Wolseley Road because I used to live there ;D further down that road going towards town is St. Augustines Church on the corner.
Armitage Road is interesting because it's nearer to Brereton. I'm wondering if it would that Talbot where the farm would be because it was a little further out.
Well fancy that :D from your description then it’s looking more likely that the Talbot Inn mentioned in connection with John Williss is probably the one out of town. I googled the Wolesley Inn and it seems there is also a Wolesley Tavern still there today.
Plus I check the address of the Talbot still there and this is the address - so Brereton one could be more than likely.
Talbot Inn
187 Main Road
Brereton
WS15 1EE
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I think so too.
Happy hunting!
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My brother in law’s great grandmother was Ella Williss her father was Henry - John Juniors son.
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I think so too.
Happy hunting!
Thanks for that I will tell him he needs to go have a cider there on his next trip back to the UK his parents live in Newent Gloucestershire but he migrated to Australia but goes back regularly.
Blessings
Deb
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Plus I check the address of the Talbot still there and this is the address - so Brereton one could be more than likely.
Talbot Inn
187 Main Road
Brereton
WS15 1EE
Not any longer see Street View https://goo.gl/maps/cCBUB9LM4yDbUsjh7
Stan
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Deb, I've had a cider in there, many moons ago.
Cheers!
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From the many articles in old newspapers, it appears that one of the one of the victims, Mr Cook, died at the Talbot Arms Hotel, not the Talbot Inn where the Williss family were. Whether or not he was poisoned there, I can't tell. It seems he poisoned many people in various public houses.
However, the murders did destroy the Williss' business. In 1855, two bodies were exhumed for an inquest, and as the Talbot Inn was close to the church graveyard where they were buried, so the coroner had the bodies sent there, thinking that there were a great many outbuildings they could use. However, the bodies were sent into the Inn itself.
John Williss ran an ad in the Staffordshire Sentinel and Commercial & General Advertiser in Jan and Feb (maybe longer) stating :
John Williss, Landlord of the Talbot Inn, Rugeley, in this County respectfully informs his friends and the public in general, that, since the performance of the surgical operatio s chich recently took place there, such thorough and effectual painting, papering, cleansing, ventilation, and other means of purification have been adopted, and no offensive trace thereof can possibly remain etc etc. The rest of the article is naming inspectors that expressed satisfaction. The letter was dated Rugeley, 10th January, 1856.
Digging in much newer papers, in 1995 a newspaper (Lichfield Mercury) ran a historical look at "Old Rugeley" in parts over a few weeks, taken from a publication written back in the time, and it appears that the Talbot Arms Hotel became the Shrewsbury Arms, and is now (in 1995) the Shrew Kafe Bar. They also state the Talbot Inn business failed because people wouldn't go back. The description might help you place it:
Soon after you leave the railway station and have crossed the bridge by the flour mill, and left Mrs Palmer's house and the two churches in the background, you come to the Talbot Inn, now a noted building and almost ruined from the circumstances of the bodies of Mrs William and Walter Palmer having been opened there. The poor landlord is dreadfully distressed at having lost his business and passes the day with his hands in his pockets, roaming about the large stable yard at the back of the house, or to relating to the one or two friends, who still drink their ale with him, the history of his misfortunes.
There are ads in 1856 where John Williss is selling off livestock and farming implements, and then in Staffordshire Advertiser 14 March 1857 there is an ad for an auction for the sale of ale barrels, brewing and dairy utensils, household furniture and other effects belonging to Mr John Williss, "who is leaving".
Hope that helps!
PS During the inquest, one of the barmaids at the Talbot Inn was questioned as she claimed to have seen William Palmer bring a drink of some sort to a different victim (Mrs. Mills?) at the Talbot Inn, but as the inquest was on Ann and Walter Palmer, it didn't appear to be followed up on (at least at this inquest).
I highly recommend you go to a library with free access to the old newspapers, as there a lot on the Williss family besides the murder bit, such as wedding notices etc.
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Goodness! Thank you so much for all that information my brother in law Tim will be very excited by your find. I did wonder about the chamber maid mentioned on the inquest with her last name Mills. Ella Williss married a Frederick Mills who is Tim’s Great Grandfather.
We are all in Australia so getting to the library will be a bit difficult but perhaps when he’s over next to visit his parents he might be able to do that.
Again thank you!
Blessings
Deb
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Deb, I've had a cider in there, many moons ago.
Cheers!
;D cider is my brother in law’s favourite
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I did wonder about the chamber maid mentioned on the inquest with her last name Mills. Ella Williss married a Frederick Mills who is Tim’s Great Grandfather.
I will double-check the Mills name.... I read too many articles with too many names, and I was relying on my (unreliable) memory for the Mills name. Will let you know when I find it!
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Okay, found it!
Cheltenham Chronicle 20 May 1856
Lavinia Burnes, waitress at the Talbot Inn, Rugeley, gave evidence of the illness of Elizabeth Mills after partaking of the broth sent by Palmer for Cook, etc etc. She was crossed-examined but nothing material was elicited.
I am attaching a small snippet from an extremely long article with more on Elizabeth Mills. It is a bit confusing with all the "he said, she said," but shows the two names of Talbot Arms and Talbot Inn.
It seems that William Palmer had brought some broth for his victim Cook, and Elizabeth, the waitress at the Talbot Arms Hotel must have taken a bit for herself before serving it, and became ill.
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Wow! Thank you so much, Tim had heard of the Rugeley poisoner but had no idea his family were on the scene.
Fantastic thank you!
Deb
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So reading through the article was Mr Cook poisoned at the Talbot Inn? It mentions both the Arms and the Inn. I’m assuming it was the Arms?
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Oh .. ok I think I see now the evidence being given is from the girl from the Inn talking about the girl from the Arms that was sick.
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I just read a different article on the same thing, and it says that Lavinia was a co-worker of Elizabeth, at the Talbot Arms, so the reporters themselves are mixing up the two establishment names. It would make more sense though, from a witness point of view, that they worked at the same place.
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I just read a different article on the same thing, and it says that Lavinia was a co-worker of Elizabeth, at the Talbot Arms, so the reporters themselves are mixing up the two establishment names. It would make more sense though, from a witness point of view, that they worked at the same place.
Yes that would make sense but at least solves the mystery of the Talbot Inn :D
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Deb, being in Australia you can access British Library Newspapers online through the National Library. You'll need a library card (free).
https://www.nla.gov.au/getalibrarycard/
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Deb, being in Australia you can access British Library Newspapers online through the National Library. You'll need a library card (free).
https://www.nla.gov.au/getalibrarycard/
I highly recommend doing that!
Also.... John Williss of Talbot Inn was one of the jurors that found William Palmer guilty!
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Deb, being in Australia you can access British Library Newspapers online through the National Library. You'll need a library card (free).
https://www.nla.gov.au/getalibrarycard/
I highly recommend doing that!
Also.... John Williss of Talbot Inn was one of the jurors that found William Palmer guilty!
Oh Blimey! Bet he was cranky at him for ruining his business! I will look into the library card.
I tried to upload a photo of Frederick Mills and his Williss cousins in Henry Williss back yard but it was too big will see if my husband can make it smaller for me as I only have iPad.
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One more question ... I have John (juniors) wife Eliza in 1891 as Beer retailer an grocer at the Moseley Inn ... is that more likely to be the tavern or the Inn of today ;D
https://www.vintageinn.co.uk/restaurants/midlands/thewolseleyarmswolseleybridge/gallery
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Census
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Although it looks like Mosely, it is the Mossley Inn. The address would work out to be 109 Armitage, and if you look further down that census page, you will see the addresses change from Armitage to Mossley.
In the 1901 census, the inn was owned/run by George Clements, Inn Keeper and Pub, 109 Armitage Rd, Mossley Inn (written much more clearly).
As a side note, the son-in-law Frank Critchley is listed in an 1895 article entitled "Receiving Orders". I don't know if that means his business went into receivership, or what. At that time, he was "trading" as Critchley & Willis. The article lists some of his prior addresses (and mentions a Henry Willis), but nothing about the Inn, or Armitage. If Frank is important to your tree, I can expand on the addresses given.
This doesn't answer your question as to what the definition of "inn" was back then, but it looks like at least part of it was a pub!
Google is showing a Mossley Tavern at 95 Armitage.... not sure if the road was renumbered or not, so it could be the Mossley Inn vanished, and a new pub appeared.
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I can’t seem to find anything on the history of the Moseley Tavern so it’s hard to tell if it’s the same as the Inn from 1891. I haven’t looked too much at Critchley side yet I had started with John Willis senior trying to work him out I did note that Elizabeth Williss née Bamford has several family members staying with her on 1851 census one if them a William Williss brother in law from Abbots Morton, Worcestershire, England so I’m thinking now the Williss family may have originated elsewhere? I have enjoyed looking at someone else’s tree after looking at my own for 4 years it’s fun to discover something new. Really appreciated the help and the information connecting the dots.
Henry Williss was a grocer he also lost his son James Henry Williss to WW1.
I also need to see if the Elizabeth Mills mentioned is in anyway related.
Thank you again for your help
Blessings
Deb
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This thread has become very interesting overnight! If you Google St. Augustines Church Rugeley it tells you that two of Palmers victims are buried there. It's a beautiful church and my children were baptised there. It's a short walk to the Shrew, back in the day we occasionally went there, it was joked at the time that Palmer had killed in the ladies toilets. I don't have any idea if there was any truth in that but we found the upstairs toilets a bit creepy and never went alone ;D. I believe Palmer lived over the road.
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Hi Deb,
Quote from you;
Elizabeth Williss née Bamford has several family members staying with her on 1851 census one if them a William Williss brother in law from Abbots Morton, Worcestershire.
I gave you Johns likely Baptism in my earlier posting as I had already worked out the Abbots Norton connection.
Trish :)
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1841 Census
Halesowen, Shropshire
William UNDERHILL, 35, Farmer
Denna Underhill, 35******
Mary Underhill, 11
Amelia Underhill,9
Anne Underhill, 6
Mary WILLIS, 65****
All NOT born in County except for Ann age 6
1851 Census is DIana Underhill is born c 1806, Abbots Morton, Worcestershire
I cant find a Marriage but by pob that is Dinah Willis bapt 1806 (earlier info) and her Mother Mary who was buried 1846.
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I’m sure my brother in law will be checking out the area on his next trip back to the UK which will be next year and hopefully enjoy a cider somewhere in Rugeley ;D
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Hi Deb,
Quote from you;
Elizabeth Williss née Bamford has several family members staying with her on 1851 census one if them a William Williss brother in law from Abbots Morton, Worcestershire.
I gave you Johns likely Baptism in my earlier posting as I had already worked out the Abbots Norton connection.
Trish :)
Thanks Trish I did go back and re read through what you had found and added them to the tree this afternoon ;)
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I found this today which seals the deal
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The publican of the Talbot Inn complained bitterly that it had ruined his trade and eventually the inn closed down. Later, before its demolition, the building was taken over by the army and used as a store for the equipment used in the army training exercises that took place on Cannock Chase during the latter part of the Nineteenth Century.
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There is a full account of the inquest of Walter and Ann Palmer here including quite a bit of what John Williss had to say about the effects on his business. Even gives a description of him
http://staffscc.net/wppalmer/?page_id=121
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Excellent! The Anson Rd is odd, as two censuses and the newspapers all said Armitage, but that's just a minor blip!
Well done!
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Excellent! The Anson Rd is odd, as two censuses and the newspapers all said Armitage, but that's just a minor blip!
Well done!
I guess that could be wrong as well if it was from a newspaper account but it seems it no longer exists according to that. There’s a whole section on John Williss and it begins like this.
THE LANDLORD OF THE TALBOT INN AT RUGELEY
Mr. John Williss, the landlord of the Talbot Inn, where the bodies of Mrs. William Palmer and Walter were opened, is a stout, jolly-looking man, who is trying to appear unhappy and who talks of ruin, because commercial travellers have of late taken a dislike to his house. We found him sitting in his bar, with a fat child between his knees, and sighing and drinking ale by turns, whilst his wife – a pretty little woman, with a baby in her arms, was endeavouring to reason him out of his despondency.
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That was very interesting to read :)
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Wow, I didn't know there had been a Talbot Inn on Anson Street.
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The Anson Rd is odd, as two censuses and the newspapers all said Armitage, but that's just a minor blip!
The "minor blip" is my memory! I was mixing up the address for Mossley/Moseley Inn with the Talbot!
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Great description of the Williss family! Almost better than a photograph. :)
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The Anson Rd is odd, as two censuses and the newspapers all said Armitage, but that's just a minor blip!
The "minor blip" is my memory! I was mixing up the address for Mossley/Moseley Inn with the Talbot!
Oh ok so it could have been where the newspaper article said it was? Not knowing the area I’ve no idea :D
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Great description of the Williss family! Almost better than a photograph. :)
I know! How lucky is my brother in law ... not so lucky for John Williss but great for family history.
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This is such an interesting thread!
The road junction at the bottom of Anson Street is where it meets with Wolseley Road, Station Road and Market Street where the Shrew is. St.Augustines is just into Station Road and over the road from the church is Church Croft where Palmers childhood home was, although it's no longer there. From that you can see it's all in a confined area.
Apparently the Mossley Tavern was built around 1850(I googled) it doesn't say if it was previously Mossley Inn.
The Trent Mersey Canal runs behind the pub and also the church. I'm trying to 'sell' Rugeley here, it's a lovely place ;D
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This is such an interesting thread!
The road junction at the bottom of Anson Street is where it meets with Wolseley Road, Station Road and Market Street where the Shrew is. St.Augustines is just into Station Road and over the road from the church is Church Croft where Palmers childhood home was, although it's no longer there. From that you can see it's all in a confined area.
Apparently the Mossley Tavern was built around 1850(I googled) it doesn't say if it was previously Mossley Inn.
I will be sure to ask Tim when he goes back to see his parents next year to go have a cider perhaps at the Shrew and send me the photos. I hope I can get back again one day too and will have to go see it for myself. I love the picture it painted of John’s wife Eliza .. little but strong and positive by the sounds. I’ve been trying to work her out as she appears on the 1851 census living with the Willis family as a cousin and barmaid but so far I’ve not seen how she’s related.
St Augustine will also have to be seen as so many baptisms seem to be there ... Tim loves old churches too.
Blessings
Deb
The Trent Mersey Canal runs behind the pub and also the church. I'm trying to 'sell' Rugeley here, it's a lovely place ;D
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What a fascinating and, in parts, amusing story. Thank you for the insight into your family's history.
Judy
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What a fascinating and, in parts, amusing story. Thank you for the insight into your family's history.
Judy
I’ve certainly appreciated the help to sort out the mystery of the Talbot Inn ;D
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I have found this most interesting threat. In 1826 my 6x Great grandad died having been the licencee for the Talbot Inn. His name was John Wallis and wife Mary Wallis. From the census I think Mary was still here in 1841 with their grandson Henry Wallis (baptised name was German Henry). In John's Will he left all estates and property to Mary and his children. This is as far as I am only to go back at the moment. John was born about 1776 in Derby. From here all my grandad have own beer houses and pubs up to 1940's. Would be interesting to know if the Williss family in this thread is a name change, or where theye came from.
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Could possibly different Talbot Inn is there one in Derbyshire? This one was in Staffordshire.
Blessings
Deb
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Hi Deb, it is definitely the one in Rugeley.
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I must admit I don’t know much about the earlier generations mostly focused on John Williss (1826-1879) and his wife Eliza and off memory he was the son of John and Elizabeth Williss née Bamford. Would be interested to know more. Is your tree on ancestry?
Blessings
Deb
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I found a few trees with John Wallis from Derbyshire I’m not sure it’s same family. What records have you found connecting them to the Talbot?
Blessings
Deb
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Sorry to join this conversation a couple of years after the last post, but I live just outside Rugeley and I've been doing a bit of local history research, which involves The Talbot Inn.
In 1839 a woman called Christina Collins was murdered on a canal boat, her body was found in the canal at Brindley Bank, just outside Rugeley. Her body was taken to the (you guessed it) Talbot Inn. Initially, I was sure that this must mean the Talbot Arms in Market Street, still existing, now known as The Shrew.
But it seems that, unbelievably, there were indeed 2 hostelries known as "The Talbot", within Rugeley, about quarter of a mile of each other. The Arms, as above, was in Market Street; the Inn was on the corner of Wolseley Road and Anson Street, now the site of a 3 story 1960s cuboid apartment block. They're both listed in the 1830 Pigot's Directory.
The Inn seems to have been a magnet for dead bodies... Collins in 1839 and the disinterred victims of Palmer a decade and a half later.
Not only did the Willis's business suffer from the stigma of the Palmer murders, the Arms was also renamed The Shrewsbury Arms as a direct result. Indeed, I'm sure I've read somewhere that the entire Town of Rugeley petitioned Parliament, unsuccessfully, to rename itself.
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And just to further clarify, the references at the start of this thread to there being a Talbot Inn on the Main Road at Brereton (a couple of miles West of the town centre, but now considered very much to be part of Rugeley) are, of course also correct. Why only have two when you can, even more confusingly have three? Also in Brereton and in the centre of Rugeley, two Red Lions.
The Talbots (aka the Earls Of Shrewsbury) were big land & colliery owners in the area. There have never been any lions though.
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Goodness me! Sounds like a fun place to stay! Probably just as well it no longer exists. Worthy of a Hollywood script.