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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: ccmmgr on Monday 05 August 19 17:23 BST (UK)
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Bore da lovely people,
I'm having trouble and would appreciate your help finding a marriage record for Owen Owens (1788-1851) to Catherine (?) (1784-1849). Owen Owens farmed at Castell, Nantgwynant parish of Beddgelert. I believe he was born there. There's an 1805 record of him serving in the Napoleonic Wars so there's a possibility that he met his spouse elsewhere, however the family seem to keep things close to Beddgelert given the choice.
There may be earlier children given the dates, but the earliest enumerated in the 1841 census is Griffith Owens (abt 1820), followed by Henry (1822-1891), Hugh (1824-1869), Anne (1827), Jane (1829).
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I note that on the 1841 Owen is recorded as 'not born county'. All others in the household are born in the county. Does his Napoleonic record give any clue to his birth place?
Gadget
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I note that on the 1841 Owen is recorded as 'not born county'. All others in the household are born in the county. Does his Napoleonic record give any clue to his birth place?
Gadget
Napoleonic record states birthplace as Beddgelert :(
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Just looking at a Will/Bond 185 naming ?son Hugh in the Nat Library - haven't read it yet though. Have you got it?
Gadget
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Hugh is Owen Owen's executor. It's a bond between him and William Roberts of Ty Issa for £160.
Gadget
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Just looking at a Will/Bond 185 naming ?son Hugh in the Nat Library - haven't read it yet though. Have you got it?
Gadget
Yes have had a quick look today luckily, thank you! It states he died intestate, don't think there were many clues in there even though it was illuminating about the farm. Thanks for the transcript of Ty Issa as I'd struggled to read that. I have made good progress with Hugh and the other children but I was in Beddgelert a couple of days ago and Owen and Catherine's gravestone unlocked a few things for me. Frustrating to be stuck with their marriage though!
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Have you got any baptisms of the children? I've only just started to look. It could be that they were non-conformist :-\
Also, have you looked for baptisms for Catherine with blank surname?
I'll have another look later this evening.
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Have you got any baptisms of the children? I've only just started to look. It could be that they were non-conformist :-\
Also, have you looked for baptisms for Catherine with blank surname?
I'll have another look later this evening.
I have found baptismal records for the children on FindMyPast but these won't let me view the original record which is frustrating as there may be clues in there. Thank you so much for your help so far.
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In 1851 the enumerator incorrectly records him as Owen Owans, lists the farm incorrectly as Castall rather than Castell and lists him as being from Carnarvon... Finding Owen Owens in Carnarvon might be like finding a needle in a hay stack though!
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Not as bad as looking for William Williams! I did quite a few of the Caernarvonshire BMDs for the North Wales BMD and there were so many Williams :)
As far as I can remember, either the registrars or the clergy weren't keen on us transcribing their records :-\
Will start looking again.
Gadget
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Not as bad as looking for William Williams! I did quite a few of the Caernarvonshire BMDs for the North Wales BMD and there were so many Williams :)
As far as I can remember, either the registrars or the clergy weren't keen on us transcribing their records :-\
Will start looking again.
Gadget
Oh crikey! Thank you so much for your hard work. Very sorry to hear that the clergy/registrars weren't receptive - let's hope that changes in future.
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I think most of them came around in the end!
I've tried both parish and non-c records but still can't find a possible marriage. Could they have married later as widow/widower?
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Thank you so much for looking. It is possible that they married later, as going on the parish baptismal records I think it is likely that they were together from at least 1813 - so Owen would have been 26 and Catherine 30 but that assumes that all of their children were born in the parish.
The following children were all registered at Beddgelert to Owen Owens and Catherine (wish I could look at the original entries):
Owens David 1814 — 1814 Wales Births & Baptisms 1541-1907 Caernarvonshire, Wales
Owens Anne 1817 — 1817 Wales Births & Baptisms 1541-1907 Caernarvonshire, Wales
Owens Henry 1822 — 1822 Wales Births & Baptisms 1541-1907 Caernarvonshire, Wales
Owens Hugh 1824 — 1824 Wales Births & Baptisms 1541-1907 Caernarvonshire, Wales
Owens Anne 1827 — 1827 Wales Births & Baptisms 1541-1907 Caernarvonshire, Wales
Owens Jane 1829 — 1829 Wales Births & Baptisms 1541-1907 Caernarvonshire, Wales
Looking on the 1841 census there is no sign of David or Anne but a Griffiths has appeared who wasn't baptised in Beddgelert (can't find a record for his birth either but that's another conundrum to be unpicked at a later time)
Owen Owens Male 53 1788 -
Catherine Owens Female 57 1784 Caernarvonshire, Wales
Griffithes Owens Male 21 1820 Caernarvonshire, Wales
Henry Owens Male 19 1822 Caernarvonshire, Wales
Hugh Owens Male 16 1825 Caernarvonshire, Wales
Ann Owens Female 14 1827 Caernarvonshire, Wales
Jane Owens Female 12 1829 Caernarvonshire, Wales
Catherine passed away in 1849 and by 1851 it's just Hugh and Jane at home with their dad and a couple of farm hands.
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I assume, like me, you don't live in Wales anymore?
Caernarfonshire Records Office have them (as would Aberystwyth):
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/CAE_PR
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Griffith Owen is one of the family. There's a long history of his wife's family from 1902, when she died aged 84
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3838721/3838735/92/
His wife was Margaret Williams, daughter of Robert & Catherine Williams, ultimately of Cae'rpontbren. She married Griffith, son of Owen Owen, Y Castell, Nantgwynant when aged 27. Griffith then got the post of servant to Mrs MInshull of PLasgwynant and they lived in the Lodge for 40 years, had 9 children (8 survived)
She was one of 15.
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1861 at the Lodge. All b Beddgelert except Margaret, from Llanfrothen
Griffith Owen 41
Margaret Owen 41
Owen Owen 11
Job Owen 10
Catherine Owen 8
Robert Owen 7
Laura Owen 6
Griffith Owen 4
Henry Owen 1
RG9, 4327, 65, 13
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Griffith Owen baptism,1819,Beddgelert is on FreeReg
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o5h/
Roger
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Hi
The original boundary of Beddgelert Parish and the Caernarvonshire/Merioneth boundary was the river Glaslyn which passes thro' Beddgelert. In the early Censuses, part of current Beddgelert Parish appear under Caernarvonshire, and part under Merionethshire (part to the East/South East of the river including the hamlet of Nantmor and the Nantmor valley). In 1841 Censuses on Ancestry you find Districts of Beddgelert 1-5 under Caernarvonshire and Districts 6-7 under Merionethshire. The Merionethshire section was a detached part of the Parish of Llanfair cum Harlech. So in 1841 Census for parishes in Caernarvonshire, someone born in Beddgelert/Merionethshire would be shown as being 'not from County'.
There are 2 essays, in Welsh, written c. 1900, which have a lot of information about people who had lived in Beddgelert.
Emyr
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There is an online tree
Owen Richard Owens b. 1788 Caernarvonshire. Parents Richard Owen (1758-1847) and Margaret Isaac (b 1763).
Spouse Catherine (b. 1784)
I'm not sure this is all correct as it has him dying July 1861. It could be a typo - 61 rather than 51
Gadget
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Another tree has Catherine's mn as Parry.
Gadget
and one has his father as Owen Maurice - so semi-patronymic
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Following from my last post, it is possible that we are dealing with a patronymic-surname -semi patronymic shift in last names .
My ancestors in the Penllyn parishes were entered variously during this period, depending on the whim/style of the vicar or the parish clerk.
I spent ages working out that part of my tree and it wasn't until a younger brother married post-1837 that I was able to verify my findings.
So maybe look for Maurice or even Richard as last names in addition to Owen(s).
Gadget
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Griffith Owen is one of the family. There's a long history of his wife's family from 1902, when she died aged 84
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3838721/3838735/92/
His wife was Margaret Williams, daughter of Robert & Catherine Williams, ultimately of Cae'rpontbren. She married Griffith, son of Owen Owen, Y Castell, Nantgwynant when aged 27. Griffith then got the post of servant to Mrs MInshull of PLasgwynant and they lived in the Lodge for 40 years, had 9 children (8 survived)
She was one of 15.
Ah Mabel this is incredible, diolch yn fawr iawn! I wish my Welsh were better than it is but will have a go in any case, what a wonderful document, thank you for looking and sharing.
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Griffith Owen baptism,1819,Beddgelert is on FreeReg
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o5h/
Roger
Thank you Roger, very helpful! :D
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Hi
The original boundary of Beddgelert Parish and the Caernarvonshire/Merioneth boundary was the river Glaslyn which passes thro' Beddgelert. In the early Censuses, part of current Beddgelert Parish appear under Caernarvonshire, and part under Merionethshire (part to the East/South East of the river including the hamlet of Nantmor and the Nantmor valley). In 1841 Censuses on Ancestry you find Districts of Beddgelert 1-5 under Caernarvonshire and Districts 6-7 under Merionethshire. The Merionethshire section was a detached part of the Parish of Llanfair cum Harlech. So in 1841 Census for parishes in Caernarvonshire, someone born in Beddgelert/Merionethshire would be shown as being 'not from County'.
There are 2 essays, in Welsh, written c. 1900, which have a lot of information about people who had lived in Beddgelert.
Emyr
Thank you so much, Emyr. I had a sense of this when going through the records but very useful to have it confirmed. I would love to see those essays. Even though my Welsh is appallingly scant I would like to have a go at reading what I can if they're available to view online at all.
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Following from my last post, it is possible that we are dealing with a patronymic-surname -semi patronymic shift in last names .
My ancestors in the Penllyn parishes were entered variously during this period, depending on the whim/style of the vicar or the parish clerk.
I spent ages working out that part of my tree and it wasn't until a younger brother married post-1837 that I was able to verify my findings.
So maybe look for Maurice or even Richard as last names in addition to Owen(s).
Gadget
Thanks very much for the tip. There does appear to be a bit of this going on in the tree, and then the dropping of the 's' from 'Owens' just to make things more confusing in the mid-century. I am always a little loath to look at other trees even though they can be so useful as I have been led down the wrong path by mistakes in others' research a few times!
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There's another piece on the history of the Gwynant Valley which confirms that Harry Owen, who established the Pen y Gwryd hotel as the Victorian tourist attraction in the area, is the son of Owen Owen y Castell
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There's another piece on the history of the Gwynant Valley which confirms that Harry Owen, who established the Pen y Gwryd hotel as the Victorian tourist attraction in the area, is the son of Owen Owen y Castell
Hi Mabel, thank you so much - yes I am aware of Henry (Harry) Owen :D maintained quite the legend for generations to come!
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Hi
I forgot to say that the essays are at the Bangor University Archives. I would not expect them to be online.
Emyr