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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Berkshire => Topic started by: Delius on Friday 09 August 19 13:03 BST (UK)
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Hi, first post so apologies if this is more long-winded than it should be.
My late father was adopted in 1947 at the age of 2. Knowing that his Christian names were not changed upon adoption (thanks to a court document from the adoption hearing) and his district of birth, I have been able to locate his birth certificate:
DoB : 13th June 1945
Name : Terence James Poole
Mother : Evelyn May Poole, née Roberts
Father : Not named
Address : Bell Street, Whitchurch, Hants.
The only wedding I could find (FreeBMD) within a sensible timeframe, between an Evelyn Roberts and a Poole was 21st July 1938 in Newbury (hence posting in Berkshire) which is not far from Whitchurch. I ordered the marriage certificate, and it turns out the name on there is Evelyn MARY Roberts, rather than May.
So first question is whether 'May' on the Birth record could be a transcription error (since it is typed and was presumably handwritten originally). If it is I have a further piece of information on this Evelyn, from the 1939 survey, namely a birth date in 1918.
Second question is how I go about finding any history for Evelyn; I've found a birth in Ashby (de la Z) and a death up in the Black Country that match ages roughly. The latter could perhaps make sense as my father, despite being born in Whitchurch, was adopted in Walsall.
Lots more questions of course but any advice welcome at this stage; have I hit a dead-end?
Thanks in advance.
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Sounds feasible. Mary and May can be interchangeable and easily mistranscribed. Presumably Mr. Poole was out of the picture at the time the baby was conceived. Perhaps away fighting. Also worth considering whether your biological grandfather may have been in the services, perhaps not English.
Have you considered taking a DNA test to try to identify your biological grandparents?
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Sounds feasible. Mary and May can be interchangeable and easily mistranscribed. Presumably Mr. Poole was out of the picture at the time the baby was conceived. Perhaps away fighting. Also worth considering whether your biological grandfather may have been in the services, perhaps not English.
Have you considered taking a DNA test to try to identify your biological grandparents?
Another point is that I haven't located a death record for William Henry Poole (born circa 1912), so don't know if she might have been already widowed.
But either way, yes I did a DNA test six months ago. The summary came back as 26% Iberian, or thereabouts. I know these tests don't work in such a way that it actually means the father was Spanish/Portuguese, but it was certainly an interesting result!
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
Have you looked for Evelyn May Poole on the 1939 Register to see if she's with Mr Poole?
JJ
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Check the CWGC website to see if William Henry Poole was killed in the war.
Don't spend too much time wondering about the ethnicity side of DNA. The useful information is in the matches. Who did you test with?
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What details were recorded for Evelyn's dad on the marriage certificate?
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Hi
I agree with Cracyln a DNA test is the way to go.
The death in Walsall may well be Evelyn M Willey born 1916 in Walsall 1939 who went on to marry a Mr Poole.
There is also a family tree for the birth in A de la Z complete with photos but with a different husband.
There is another possible son of that Roberts Poole marriage in the area born 1939 ,I'd take a look at him and where he ended up.
It looks like he died Brian William Poole 3 10 1939 in Milton Keynes Mar 2000
As for William H Poole ,it looks like he remarries at Newbury Sep 1947 to Violet V Webb
She died in North East Hampshire in 1999.
So it looks like the couple were divorced.
Ciderdrinker
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
Have you looked for Evelyn May Poole on the 1939 Register to see if she's with Mr Poole?
Thanks :)
Yes I found her on the 1939 register. It had her living with her widowed mother-in-law, an Arthur Poole and [censored]. She's shown as married at this time so I presume her husband is among the censored records.
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Check the CWGC website to see if William Henry Poole was killed in the war.
Don't spend too much time wondering about the ethnicity side of DNA. The useful information is in the matches. Who did you test with?
Test was with MyHeritage.
I've seen a "Paternal DNA ancestry test" available, I'm not sure if that's a better way to go on this one or if that's basically just going to come back telling me about ancestors 10k years ago :D
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Lincoln Echo 9 Nov 1945 ....divorce Muriel Campbell SPENCER...George SPENCER, Lincoln Gardens Scunthorpe..........Evelyn May POOLE...
Freebdm SPENCER - GRIMES marriage 1935......
edited to add -
FreeBDM Scunthorpe SepQ 1946 3b / 1175
POOLE Evelyn M marr. SPENCER George
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What details were recorded for Evelyn's dad on the marriage certificate?
Walter Roberts of Newbury.
If it sounds safe-ish to presume Evelyn 'May' and Evelyn Mary are the same person I'll pursue that some more (I only received the marriage certificate yesterday).
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Hi
The death in Walsall may well be Evelyn M Willey born 1916 in Walsall 1939 who went on to marry a Mr Poole.
There is also a family tree for the birth in A de la Z complete with photos but with a different husband.
There is another possible son of that Roberts Poole marriage in the area born 1939 ,I'd take a look at him and where he ended up.
It looks like he died Brian William Poole 3 10 1939 in Milton Keynes Mar 2000
As for William H Poole ,it looks like he remarries at Newbury Sep 1947 to Violet V Webb
She died in North East Hampshire in 1999.
So it looks like the couple were divorced.
Very interesting, thanks so much for the insight.
The Black Country death I mentioned was in Cannock, an Evelyn Roberts (this was part of a theory about her getting divorced, going to live with family and reverting to maiden name, though I have no idea if the latter was even a thing back then).
Great find on the other stuff -again, thanks a lot.
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WW1 Service record for husband of Eleanor Poole -
William Henry Poole
Eleanor Poole (Warren) Spouse
William Henry Poole Child date of birth - 10.2.12, Newbury
Edith Dora Poole
JJ
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Death of the above William Henry -
William Henry Poole
Birth Date - 10 Feb 1912
Registration Date - Nov 1992
Registration district - Surrey North-western
Vol 17 Page 804
JJ
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There is this birth reg for an Evelyn M Roberts (not far from Newbury):
Births Jun 1919
Roberts Evelyn M mothers maiden name Milson Wantage 2c 465
Possible marriage for her parents:
Marriages Dec 1913
Roberts Walter Milsom Wantage 2c 768
Milsom Ann Roberts Wantage 2c 768
other possible children born to this couple:
Births Dec 1914
Roberts Oliver C Milsom Wantage 2c 564
Possible death 1915:
Deaths Mar 1915
Roberts Oliver C aged 0 Wantage 2c 531
Births Jun 1916
Roberts Grace Milsom Wantage 2c 575
Possible death 1916:
Deaths Jun 1916
Roberts Grace aged 0 Wantage 2c 364
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You should also upload your MyHeritage results to FTDNA and to gedmatch to get access to more matches. Testing at AncestryDNA and 23andme would also give you access to many more matches. You cannot upload to those two sites.
If your father takes a Y-DNA test then that may help you to narrow down a surname group for his paternal line. You would need to use this in combination with autosomal test results to find the actual parent. To get matches on a Y-DNA test he would need to use FTDNA.
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remarriage for Evelyn??? (under both names):
Marriages Dec 1946
Kebby Frederick H Poole Kingsclere 6b 746
Kebby Frederick H Roberts Kingsclere 6b 746
Poole Evelyn M Kebby Kingsclere 6b 746
Roberts Evelyn M Kebby Kingsclere 6b 746
Possible death:
Kebby Evelyn May born 1919 died1989 England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007 Henley, Oxfordshire, England
2 possible children born to Evelyn and Frederick Kebby
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What details were recorded for Evelyn's dad on the marriage certificate?
Walter Roberts of Newbury.
If it sounds safe-ish to presume Evelyn 'May' and Evelyn Mary are the same person I'll pursue that some more (I only received the marriage certificate yesterday).
Free search of the 1939 show a Walter Roberts (1883) living in Newbury with Annie E Roberts (1892)
Possible parents of Evelyn May.
What was Evelyn's father's occupation on the marriage cert that you have?
JJ
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Anyone able to look at the birth date recorded for Evelyn M Kebby on the death record in 1989? Hoping it's 25th March 1919
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Anyone able to look at the birth date recorded for Evelyn M Kebby on the death record in 1989? Hoping it's 25th March 1919
Evelyn May Kebby
Death Age - 70
Birth Date - 25 Mar 1919
Registration Date - May 1989
Henley, Oxfordshire
Vol 20 Page 2347
JJ
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Thanks JJ, because Evelyn Poole 's birth was 25th Mar 1918 in the 1939 register and I now think that that should have been recorded as 1919 which would fit with the birth and second marriage that I have already posted
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Thanks JJ, because Evelyn Poole 's birth was 25th Mar 1918 in the 1939 register and I now think that that should have been recorded as 1919 which would fit with the birth and second marriage that I have already posted
Looks very promising :)
JJ
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Interestingly, there is an Eliza Roberts (born 1876) and a George Roberts (born 1871) living in Bell Street Kingsclere and Whitchurch RD Hampshire in 1939, wonder if they are related to Evelyn somehow.
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What was Evelyn's father's occupation on the marriage cert that you have?
JJ
It was 'Hay Tyer' :)
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I'll endeavour to reply to everyone's input separately - when I get time, there's a lot to work through here! But in the meantime - huge thanks. I was pleased at how far I'd managed to get just from the basic information that my dad was adopted - but in a matter of hours I have so much more to work with. What a fine bunch of folk! :D
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You have a court document from the adoption hearing for Terence James Poole, at 1947.
How is mother recorded on this document. Is mother named.....does mother sign this document.
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Please can you post the following details from the marriage certificate:
1. Age and address of Evelyn
2. Where the marriage took place
3. Date of marriage
4. Witnesses to the mariage
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You have a court document from the adoption hearing for Terence James Poole, at 1947.
How is mother recorded on this document. Is mother named.....does mother sign this document.
'Poole' and his mother are not mentioned. It's the hearing at which his adoption to the people I knew as my grandparents was confirmed. So it just says (slight paraphrase) : It having been proven to the satisfaction of the Judge that the child was born on 13/06/45 and is identical with Terence James entered in the Register of Births in Kingsclere and Whitchurch... and the entry shall be marked 'adopted'.
My luck was in the relative rarity of the Christian name and the fact that searches can be carried out online without a surname.
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Please can you post the following details from the marriage certificate:
1. Age and address of Evelyn
2. Where the marriage took place
3. Date of marriage
4. Witnesses to the mariage
1. Age 20, Address: Chockton Cottages, Stroud Green, Newbury
2. The Register Office, Newbury
3. 21st July 1938
4. ED Chandler / E Poole (I'm guessing this is Eleanor Poole)
Thus far it all seems to tie in with the 1919 Evelyn you were mentioning...?
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Regarding the witnesses, the ED Chandler could be Edith Dora Poole b.25 Jun 1913, a sister of William Henry Poole, as per their father's Service record. Edith's marriage -
Edith D Poole
q4 1936, Newbury, Berks
Spouse - Stanley J Chandler
Volume 2c Page 796
Was hoping the ED Chandler was a relative of Evelyn, so no help there ???
JJ
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Regarding the witnesses, the ED Chandler could be Edith Dora Poole b.25 Jun 1913, a sister of William Henry Poole, as per their father's Service record.
Was hoping the ED Chandler was a relative of Evelyn, so no help there
JJ you've been hugely helpful, as has candrjm.
Your help has got me to the point where I believe I may have identified and tracked-down a couple of living siblings of my father! I need to order a couple of birth certificates now to rule out errors.
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Pleased we have all been of help to you. If you need any further help then please don't hesitate to ask as there are many people on this site that have a wealth of knowledge and are only too happy to share with others. :)
Happy hunting!
JJ
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Where is this enquiry going in researching Evelyn May POOLE?
What outcome are you now looking for?
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Part quote from JJ on page 2:
Free search of the 1939 show a Walter Roberts (1883) living in Newbury with Annie E Roberts (1892)
Possible parents of Evelyn May.
I think that we can rule that couple out as Evelyn's parents
Marriages Sep Q 1917
Roberts Walter West Henley 3a 2149
West Annie E Roberts Henley 3a 2149
No birth registration for an Evelyn Roberts with mothers maiden name West found
possible birth of a daughter:
Births Sep 1919
Roberts Nancy MMN West Henley 3a 1519
1939 address (for the above couple): Priors Court Cottages Chieveley
Walter Roberts died 22nd July 1967 in Newbury probate records his address as 3 Priors Court Cottages Chieveley
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=roberts&yearOfDeath=1967&page=32#calendar
Newspaper obituary records he died 22nd July 1967 at Arlington Grange Nursing Home Newbury, left widow Annie Ellen, daughter Nancy and grandchildren
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Free search of the 1939 show a Walter Roberts (1883) living in Newbury with Annie E Roberts (1892)
Possible parents of Evelyn May.
I think that we can rule that couple out as Evelyn's parents
Yes I looked up the 1939 record and came to the same conclusion. Mother looks to be Ann Milsom (marriages 1913 referenced above). Which may be
Births Sep 1891 - Milsom, Ann - Highworth 5a 30
I can't see another obvious candidate at this point, anyway.
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Where is this enquiry going in researching Evelyn May POOLE?
What outcome are you now looking for?
Good question!
I started the process just wanting to know the history on my father's side, as I have for the past 25 years - who his birth parents were and perhaps get an idea of why he was adopted. Now there are possible siblings of his in the picture, it's quite exciting to be honest. I was up pretty late last night doing research. 8)
But at this precise moment I'm interested in working backwards to explore her background.
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A possibility perhaps!
Death:
Deaths Mar Q 1922
Wantage 2c 446
Roberts Ann aged 30
Burial:
30th March 1922
West Hendred Holy Trinity
Ann Roberts aged 30
Burials of the children of Walter and Ann Roberts as posted before:
Burial:
26th April 1916
West Hendred Holy Trinity
Grace Roberts aged 5 days
Burial:
15th Feb 1915
West Hendred Holy Trinity
Oliver Cromwell Roberts aged 4 months
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A possibility perhaps!
That fits with the 1891 birthdate.
Just can't believe how sad some of the stories that come to light from days past are - in this case, a woman loses two children in infancy and then dies aged 30 with her daughter aged only 4.
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Have you considered the information at reply #9.
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Hi Delius,
You may have already seen this but just in case you haven't:
There is a record in the 1939 register for a Walter Roberts born 1891 living in Wantage R.D. Berkshire which looks a likely candidate for Evelyn's father. (not allowed to post the details)
Possible birth reg:
ROBERTS, WALTER MMN HAINKS <<<<<<<<
GRO Reference: 1891 December Quarter in WANTAGE Volume 02C Page 295
<<<<<<<<<<MMN possibly mistranscribed should read Haines
Possible marriage for parents:
Marriages Sep 1872
HAINES Louisa Wantage 2c 533
Roberts William Wantage 2c 533
This looks like the same Walter in:
1901 census:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS3P-QWB
and in the 1911 census: (father is recorded as a Thatcher so possibly Walter learnt the trade from him)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7L8-CJD
Possible death reg for Walter: (possibly moved to Oxford to live with or be nearer to Evelyn and family)
Deaths Mar 1968
ROBERTS WALTER aged 76 OXFORD 6B 1429
Chris
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Have you considered the information at reply #9.
Hi, I have thanks but various other evidence has drawn me in a different direction from that.