RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: PatsyAnnKelly on Saturday 10 August 19 18:19 BST (UK)
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Hello Again
I hope that it is not too much of an imposition to ask for the help of this great group again? I received such a huge amount of assistance before that it was possible to complete the thread and make contact with living family members.
This time my query is linked, in that the above named was the son of a Violet Harvie Sweet who in 1910/1911 was being divorced by her then husband Frank Turner citing Sidney Rowe as co-respondent. Subsequently Violet and Sydney were said ( in the divorce papers) to be cohabiting in Auckland under the name of Harvey/Harvey. Violet gave birth to a son Winton Herbert Ryan in 1911 some 5 or 6 months after the divorce was finalised. The father's name was not recorded on his birth certificate so I am uncertain whether he was the child of Sidney Rowe ( who may also have been calling himself Ryan) or of her husband Frank Turner. He went by the name Ryan all his life although in 1935 he changed it to Turner by Deed Poll. He never used the surname Turner even in what became a distinguished military career, so it is a mystery as to why he changed it.
In 1914 she gave birth to a second son, Edwin William Ryan and on the birth certificate the father was recorded as Sydney (presumably Ryan).
Violet and Sidney/Sydney Rowe/Ryan were together until at least 1915 as on his WW1 military attestation papers he gave her name and address as his wife. They must have separated, as in 1917 Sidney married someone else, and in 1918 Violet married a Daniel Ryan about whom I can find nothing. She later divorced him and married an Edwards.
They all seem to have stayed in and around Auckland for a considerable time.
As I am researching from the UK I cannot access the voters records so can't find where Violet and Sydney were living from 1911 until 1916 and what names they went under. At least one of the children must have attended school and I wonder what name was used . Where the name Ryan appeared from in 1911 and 1914 well before a Daniel Ryan featured I do not know. All I do know from the previous research into the Rowe family is that they used aliases from time to time so it may have been standard behaviour for them. Sydney/Sidney had a brother named Mark Daniel Rowe, and brothers William and Herbert whose names were used as middle names by the two boys leading me to think they may both have been Sidney's.
It seems that Winton and Edwin did not keep in contact with each other probably from the time they went into the Army in WW2
Any help or advice would again be very much appreciated.
Best wishes
PatsyAnn
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Link to previous thread ( Sidney ROWE ) > >
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=813873.0
~ Lu
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....
This time my query is linked, in that the above named was the son of a Violet Harvie Sweet who in 1910/1911 was being divorced by her then husband Frank Turner citing Sidney Rowe as co-respondent.
Subsequently Violet and Sydney were said ( in the divorce papers) to be cohabiting in Auckland under the name of Harvey/Harvey.
Just for clarification regarding the divorce mentioned above, the NZ Marriage index has the following listing >
Frank TURNER
Violet Sweet HARVIE
Year: 1903
[Note: The bride's surname is recorded as "HARVIE" : ]
~ Lu
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..... and in 1918 Violet married a Daniel Ryan about whom I can find nothing. She later divorced him and married an Edwards.
Hi ... do you not have a copy of the 1918 marriage of Violet to Daniel RYAN ???
~ Lu
Edited to add : Can find no marriage to an "EDWARDS" ? The next recorded NZ marriage for Violet Sweet RYAN is in 1931 to Henry Ernest ARMSTRONG.
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1919 Violet Sweet Ryan and Daniel Ryan, 46 Commercial Road, Grey Lynn, Auckland.
Daniel is a Saddler
1928 Violet Sweet Ryan, married, 26 Graham Street, Auckland Central. No Daniel.
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Hi All
Thanks for the info.
No I do not have a copy of the marriage cert between Violet Sweet and Daniel Ryan but thank you for the info. relating to him I just knew that they married in 1918.
I knew nothing about him other than that she married him. I am really puzzled that she seemed to give her sons the surname Ryan well before Daniel Ryan was with her, whilst she was living with Sydney Rowe in Auckland from 1911, together as Mr and Mrs Harvey ( albeit her maiden name was Harvie not Harvey) and giving the name Sydney as the father of Edwin.
Re the Edwards that was my error. Yes it should have been Armstrong.
PatsyAnn
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Hello PatsyAnn
From NZ Electoral Rolls :
Mckha489 has already given you the 1919 and 1928 listings for Violet from these rolls.
Violet does NOT appear in 1914 as far as I can see (i.e. using both of her christian names).
However, if you go back and look over the NZ Army attestation form for Sydney ROWE (from your previous thread), you'll see that he has given the address of (his "wife") Violet, as "Te Maru, Matakana". There is a later alteration to add a new address for Violet, which is given as "5 Princes Street", Grey Lynn".
The 1911 Electoral roll for Manukau, Auckland, has Violet as follows >
TURNER - Violet Sweet - Princes Street - married
TURNER - Frank - Princes Street - coppersmith
[SO at the time of the 1911 parliamentary election, the record (listing) had not been altered to reflect the fact that either Violet, or her former spouse, Frank TURNER, were still residing at that address. ]
As I said earlier, can't find Violet on 1914 rolls, but her former husband Frank has a change of address by then .
1914 - Parnell, Auckland, Electoral roll :
TURNER - Frank - York Street, Newmarket - coppersmith
You don't say whether Violet was granted custody of her children with Frank ? If she was, then perhaps that was the reason that in 1914 her address was still "Princes Street" ?? [i.e. she continues living in the family home ? ]
~ Lu
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...
I am really puzzled that she seemed to give her sons the surname Ryan well before Daniel Ryan was with her, whilst she was living with Sydney Rowe in Auckland from 1911, together as Mr and Mrs Harvey ( albeit her maiden name was Harvie not Harvey) and giving the name Sydney as the father of Edwin.
Re the Edwards that was my error. Yes it should have been Armstrong.
PatsyAnn
Hi PatsyAnn
I think the answer to the sons of Violet being given the surname RYAN, is that upon her marriage to Daniel RYAN in 1918, he became their legal guardian.
It is not necessarily a case of Violet "giving her sons this surname well before Daniel RYAN came on the scene", it has to do with the fact that a change of name (in this case from TURNER* to RYAN), will always be recorded on the the New Zealand Birth Index "in the actual year of birth of the particular child" (and ideally a notation will appear on the original birth record giving some detail of change of name).
~ Lu
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PatsyAnn
I see that you comment on information from the "birth certificates" for the sons Winton and Edwin, do you actually have the certificates (or the "printouts" of birth records which generally gives additional info) ???
~ Lu
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...
This time my query is linked, in that the above named was the son of a Violet Harvie Sweet who in 1910/1911 was being divorced by her then husband Frank Turner citing Sidney Rowe as co-respondent. Subsequently Violet and Sydney were said ( in the divorce papers) to be cohabiting in Auckland under the name of Harvey/Harvey. Violet gave birth to a son Winton Herbert Ryan in 1911 some 5 or 6 months after the divorce was finalised. The father's name was not recorded on his birth certificate so I am uncertain whether he was the child of Sidney Rowe ( who may also have been calling himself Ryan) or of her husband Frank Turner.
He went by the name Ryan all his life although in 1935 he changed it to Turner by Deed Poll. He never used the surname Turner even in what became a distinguished military career, so it is a mystery as to why he changed it.
In 1914 she gave birth to a second son, Edwin William Ryan and on the birth certificate the father was recorded as Sydney (presumably Ryan).
Hi PatsyAnn
I gather from your other thread that you've already read through the NZ Army record for Sydney ROWE - Regt. No. 12/1066 ?
http://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE20097197
Please see Page 4 of this record (at bottom of page) where particulars of wife and family are noted.
Spouse is given as "Violet Sweet HARVIE" - marriage particulars are left blank, because there doesn't appear to have been a legal marriage for them.
Children: The names of Winton Herbert and (born 1/06/1911) and Edmund [sic] William (born 30/06/1914) are given.
Sydney ROWE is claiming these named children as his offspring.
~ Lu
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Hi again
I don't of course have the benefit of viewing the TURNER v. TURNER 1911 Divorce file, but there is a "somewhat veiled" report in the local newspaper of the day stating that Sydney ROWE visited (an ill) Violet TURNER at her home in September of 1910.
Not sure if that hints at the possible time of conception for the child Winton, born 1 June 1911 at Auckland ???
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19110823.2.99
Scroll down to article entitled "A False Friend".
~ Lu
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Sydney ROWE + photo and brief details : Invalided home from War - 1915 : His wife and two small children live at ...
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19151007.2.72.6
~ Lu
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... Violet gave birth to a son Winton Herbert Ryan in 1911 some 5 or 6 months after the divorce was finalised. The father's name was not recorded on his birth certificate so I am uncertain whether he was the child of Sidney Rowe ( who may also have been calling himself Ryan) or of her husband Frank Turner. He went by the name Ryan all his life although in 1935 he changed it to Turner by Deed Poll. He never used the surname Turner even in what became a distinguished military career, so it is a mystery as to why he changed it.
Hi PatsyAnn
Just a quick question.
* How do you know of this 1935 Deed Poll ?
* Do you have a copy of the document ?
~ Lu
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Deed Poll......
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=25694896
The existence of this document supplied to PatsyAnn by e-mail some weeks ago after the original topic was closed.
Minniehaha.
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Hi Lucy and Minnie
Thank you both. Yes I have read all the stuff on Sydney Rowe during my last thread and Minnie and Beg supplied me with lots of information which allowed me to conclude that, with a link up to living Rowes. The current separate thread is that of Winton and Edwin who were known as Ryan, as you say Lucy, because their mother married a Daniel Ryan. I know Sydney claimed both children as his own but there must be some doubt as to Winton because she was married to Frank Turner at time of conception . Additionally Sydney claimed Violet as his wife but they never married.
I do not think from the newspapers etc that Violet had custody of the two Turner children, although one report on the divorce suggests she took her young daughter with her. I doubt that separation of children and custody to an 'errant' wife ( in the society of that time) would have been a realistic option if there had been a contest on the part of the 'wronged' husband. Not my views I hasten to add, simply the mores of the time, certainly here in the UK. Unless the husband didn't want them of course.
I am in contact with a living descendant of Winton who is sending for his birth cert and is doing an Ancestry DNA test which should resolve the paternity issue as my son in law descended from Sydney has done the same and is linked to Rowe so if they match then he is probably Sydney's. That person has no knowledge of Edwin ( Winton's either full or half brother) ,nor the other 2 children of Violet by Turner so I am concentrating in trying to trace his line down. I cannot access voters lists on MyHeritage and via any other source from here in the UK
Thanks
PatsyAnn
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Lucy, Re Frank Turner ex husband of Violet Sweet, coppersmith, I have now accessed his WW1 Military records online and found that he seemed to have kept custody of the two children of the marriage. On his records he claims he has a wife, Winifred Maude ( Farley) married in 1912 and 3 children, Frank Reginald 1903, Esther Flora 1905 and Arthur Kenneth 1915. No mention of Winton and Edwin Ryan. Clearly he was not heartbroken for long after the 1911 divorce. Nor was he fated to be happily married as he and Winifred divorced in 1926.
Re Daniel Ryan who married Violet Sweet in 1918 and was stepfather to Sydney's sons I have tracked him down again via WW1 Military records. Born 1876 in Tipperary, Ireland parents deceased. He went into the NZ Army under ballot Sept. 1917. I assume that was a compulsory call up in what seems to be the later stages of the war? At attestation he was a saddler living at Great North Road, Kingsland Auckland. I discounted 2 other Daniel Ryans as they were serving in the field abroad when Violet married one of the three in 1918.
On the Archives website I found reference to a mortgage discharge between Daniel Ryan of Grey Lynn and Government officer of some sort ( records relate to time slots between 1907 and 1938). The property in question was in Princes Street Auckland. Daniel was described as a butcher.
I looked up Daniel Ryan Butchers Grey Lynn on Google and there is still a butchers shop at 531 Great North Road address. I feel certain this is the correct Daniel Ryan because of the Grey Lynn connection between him and the address Sydney gave for Violet. Perhaps love blossomed over the lamb chops? Not long-lived though as they divorced in 1926
The butchers connection might spark a clue or memory? A Daniel Ryan died 1945 and is buried in Otahuhu Public cemetery. Perhaps it is him.
Thanks
PatsyAnn
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Hi PatsyAnn.
There are 3 Princes Street's in Auckland and oddly enough none are in Grey Lynn nor would they have ever been considered to be in Grey Lynn which is why I found that address curious.
The first Princes Street is in the centre of the city (where old Auckland Government House is),the second is in Onehunga and the third is in Otahuhu.
Cheers Janette
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......Edited....
On the Archives website I found reference to a mortgage discharge between Daniel Ryan of Grey Lynn and Government officer of some sort ( records relate to time slots between 1907 and 1938). The property in question was in Princes Street Auckland. Daniel was described as a butcher.
I looked up Daniel Ryan Butchers Grey Lynn on Google and there is still a butchers shop at 531 Great North Road address. I feel certain this is the correct Daniel Ryan because of the Grey Lynn connection between him and the address Sydney gave for Violet. Perhaps love blossomed over the lamb chops? Not long-lived though as they divorced in 1926
The butchers connection might spark a clue or memory? A Daniel Ryan died 1945 and is buried in Otahuhu Public cemetery. Perhaps it is him.
Thanks
PatsyAnn
Hello PatsyAnn
Hopefully within the next couple of weeks I will be back to the Auckland branch of Archives NZ to look up a list of over 30 deeds, that I have singled out to do with early Waikato research. So what's one more ?
Will add to my list item R24588336 for a look see, and if revealing will photograph the document. It related to the settlement of a loan raised from a Governmental settlement scheme.
Alan.
PS Have you looked into the probate of a Daniel Ryan, Sadler, Papakura [ R21453910 ] which can be viewed on line on a family history site. ?
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=21453910
PPS Had a quick online look at the PRIMARY DEEDS INDEX R22764432 and on image 240 a mortgage deed numbered 186217 was registered on September 27th 1906 for a Mr RAYAN morgatgee. Perchance it is in a big deed book R141 page 46, which I will be returning to on my next visit. So no trouble to look up.
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Hi Janette
Thank you for that information.
My only interest in the reference to Princes Street, whichever one, is that Daniel Ryan seemed ,from the title of the Archway archives record, to have discharged a mortgage on it sometime before 1937. My interest is that the Daniel Ryan concerned is said to be a butcher and was of Grey Lynn , tying him back to the area of the address on his WW1 record and his Voters List entry along with then wife Violet ( and presumably her sons Winton and Edwin) in 1919. That information had been kindly provided here on Rootschat .
PatsyAnn
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Hello Alan yes i assumed that it was a loan or mortgage of that sort. I would really appreciate your help when you are at the archives and any information you may find,Thank you so much.
I seem to have seen references to Onehunga amongst the various documents I've seen related to this family so would imagine that the Princes Street concerned is possibly that one.
Thanks again
PatsyAnn
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.... My interest is that the Daniel Ryan concerned is said to be a butcher and was of Grey Lynn , tying him back to the area of the address on his WW1 record and his Voters List entry along with then wife Violet ( and presumably her sons Winton and Edwin) in 1919. That information had been kindly provided here on Rootschat .
PatsyAnn
1919 Violet Sweet Ryan and Daniel Ryan, 46 Commercial Road, Grey Lynn, Auckland.
Daniel is a Saddler
1928 Violet Sweet Ryan, married, 26 Graham Street, Auckland Central. No Daniel.
^^ Is this the (electoral) information you are referring to ?
~ Lu
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Yes Lucy. Info kindly provided by Mckha
Patsy
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Thanks Alan. I haven't seen his probate record as am in UK but will look on the Family Search site. Coincidentally I looked again at the military records for Sydney Rowe who lived at various addresses including in Onehunga and I found on one document (58) details of his next of kin, Violet and several addresses crossed out. The last written and presumably the latest one was 5 Princes Street Auckland. Daniel Ryan/Rayan mortgage was for Princes Street. The plot thickens :)
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Yes Lucy. Info kindly provided by Mckha
Patsy
But one Daniel RYAN is a "saddler", and the other you've mentioned was a "butcher" ??
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Hello PatsyAnn
PS Have you looked into the probate of a Daniel Ryan, Sadler, Papakura [ R21453910 ] which can be viewed on line on a family history site. ?
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=21453910
For elimination :
The above-mentioned Daniel RYAN (Saddler) is not the man who married Violet Sweet ROWE (or TURNER) : Edited to add: This probate is dated 1922 - so Violet would hardly be divorcing this man in 1926 as was mentioned earlier.
The Probate file relates to a Daniel RYAN who was a saddler formerly resident for a time at Papakura, Auckland, New Zealand, but who died as the result of an accident, in the state of Victoria, Australia in December 1914. This man had married a Margaret SLOAN (SLOANE) - she died in NZ in 1909.
An Obituary for this Daniel RYAN was published in a New Zealand newspaper >
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/PWT19150105.2.16
~ Lu
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.... The butchers connection might spark a clue or memory? A Daniel Ryan died 1945 and is buried in Otahuhu Public cemetery. Perhaps it is him.
Thanks
PatsyAnn
For elimination :
Daniel RYAN (butcher) ... died 1945 buried at Otahuhu Cemetery ... husband of late Bessie Maria ...
Death Notice >
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19450924.2.2.6
Please note: This Daniel RYAN and wife Bessie Maria, appear on Auckland electoral rolls from 1905:
> Grey Lynn electorate 1905-06 and 1911 - at Princess* Street - occ: butcher : [* E/roll shows spelling of street as "Princess" -- later electoral roll listings have the spelling as "Princes" ]
> 1919 - Manukau electorate -- RYAN - Daniel (butcher) and Bessie Maria (married) both at Panmure Road, Otahuhu
> 1928 - Manukau electorate - both at Panmure Road
~ Lu
Edited to add 1919:
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On the Archives website I found reference to a mortgage discharge between Daniel Ryan of Grey Lynn and Government officer of some sort ( records relate to time slots between 1907 and 1938). The property in question was in Princes Street Auckland. Daniel was described as a butcher.
I looked up Daniel Ryan Butchers Grey Lynn on Google and there is still a butchers shop at 531 Great North Road address. I feel certain this is the correct Daniel Ryan because of the Grey Lynn connection between him and the address Sydney gave for Violet. Perhaps love blossomed over the lamb chops? Not long-lived though as they divorced in 1926
.
Thanks
PatsyAnn
Just in case you are not aware, it was Violet Sweet RYAN who instigated divorce proceedings in 1926 , on the grounds that Daniel RYAN had deserted her :
This notice appeared in newspapers >
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19260426.2.170.5
~ Lu
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Daniel RYAN (butcher) ... died 1945 buried at Otahuhu Cemetery ... husband of late Bessie Maria ...
Death Notice >
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19450924.2.2.6
Name RYAN, DANIEL
Details M: Died 23-09-1945: Aged 75:
Place Otahuhu
Location Area 1 Lot No 320
Remarks Burial Register has: aged 75 years died 23.9.1945
Transcription" In loving memory of Bessie Maria, beloved wife of Daniel Ryan, died 9th September 1939 aged 63 years. Also Jack Ryan aged 6 years 9 months. Also Daniel, beloved husband of the late Bessie Maria, died 23 September 1945 aged 75 years. Rest in Peace."
Cheers Janette
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This does not help in any way but another snippet [1925] about Violet......
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZTR19251121.2.41?query=violet%20ryan&phrase=2&start_date=01-01-1918&end_date=31-12-1926&snippet=true
See about half way down the page. Mrs. Ryan (or Turner)….'Violet' having already been mentioned.
Minniehaha.
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Part quote from PatsyAnn's first post:
"Violet and Sidney/Sydney Rowe/Ryan were together until at least 1915 as on his WW1 military attestation papers he gave her name and address as his wife. They must have separated, as in 1917 Sidney married someone else, and in 1918 Violet married a Daniel Ryan about whom I can find nothing. She later divorced him and married an Edwards."
I believe Violet married the following [not Edwards]..... as shown in reply #3.
1931/7616 Violet Sweet Ryan Henry Ernest Armstrong
Her death:
1971/42670 Armstrong Violet Sweet 88Y
Minniehaha.
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The will of Violet Sweet Armstrong:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=13073150&digital=yes
Minniehaha.
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Good find.
Alan.
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Marriages of those children mentioned in the will of Violet Armstrong:
1929/11468 Esther Flora Turner Frank Guppy Beesley
1928/703 Ruby Alice Sullivan Frank Reginald Cyril Turner
Added: deaths......
1983/51756 Turner Frank Reginald Cyril 23 September 1903
1987/45396 Beesley Esther Flora 1 June 1905
Probate:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=273800
Minniehaha.
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Cemetery Record for Esther Flora Beesley
Date of birth
Unknown
Date of death
21 July 1987
Age at death
82 years
Gender
Not recorded
Region
South
Cemetery name
Manukau Memorial Gardens
Remains type
Ash
Date of cremation
24 July 1987
Funeral director
Lambert R Fountain Ltd
Minniehaha.
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Cemetery Record for Frank Reginald Cyril Turner
Date of birth
Unknown
Date of death
Unknown
Age at death
Unknown
Gender
Not recorded
Region
South
Cemetery name
Papakura Cemetery
Plot location
Papakura Cemetery, Rsa Ash Wall, Row A, Plot 029
Remains type
Ash
Date of burial
27 July 1984
Funeral director
Unknown
Minniehaha.
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Cemetery Record for Henry Ernest Armstrong [but was he the husband of Violet Sweet??]
Date of birth
Unknown
Date of death
Unknown
Age at death
Unknown
Gender
Not recorded
Region
South
Cemetery name
Manukau Memorial Gardens
Remains type
Ash
Death:
1980/39396 Armstrong Henry Ernest 12 August 1898
Minniehaha.
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Thank you LU. Yes I had seen the date of probate and realised it was not the correct Daniel Ryan. I agree the inconsistencies, albeit not necessarily insurmountable. Yes I thought from the title of the record that Violet was the petitioner. Possibly Ryan's behaviour towards Violet may have been the trigger for Winton changing his name by deed poll. I am now shelving any further searches for Daniel Ryan . I was only interested in him and his whereabouts in his role as step-father and "carer", for a limited time , of the two men I have been searching for. I am grateful for all efforts you have all put in in respect of him though.
Alan thank you for the offer but it probably doesn't serve any purpose to search the deeds now, you have enough to do at the archives. I appreciate your help.
For the sake of clarity I am in the U.K., cannot get to the archives in NZ and although I am signed to MyHeritage they do not have many NZ records on their site so I am very grateful for all input.
Now concentrating of trying to trace Edwin William Ryan.
Thanks
Patsy
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Wow Minnie re the snippet about Violet, what a story! :o How salacious were divorces then and what florid language used! Violet got about a bit. Interestingly her daughter, (Esther) was mentioned albeit not by name. Thanks for that. Like a soap opera.
Her will was a great piece of info. Obviously she remained in contact with the children from her Turner marriage as they and their children were the only beneficiaries of her will. Winton and Edwin were not mentioned.
Yes I made a slip of the keyboard by saying she had married an Edwards, don't know where that came from.
Brilliant. Thank you.
Patsy
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Info for Edwin William RYAN :
His cremation record can be found at the following link >
https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/cemeteries/Pages/find-burial-cremation.aspx
RYAN - Edwin William
Retired Plasterer
Died: 11 May 1985
The Funeral Directors name is given at the link - maybe they can supply additional information or, you could request a RootsChatter to assist with obtaining his funeral notice ?
~ Lu
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https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/cemeteries/Pages/find-burial-cremation.aspx
Also at the link above is the cremation record for Elsie May RYAN, widow of Edwin WIlliam RYAN.
Elsie May RYAN
aged 82 years
Died : 23 February 1996
[Ashes interred with those of her husband, at Waikumete Cemetery, Auckland.]
~ Lu
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NZ Marriage - NZBDM (online index)
Edwin William RYAN -- Elsie May TAYLOR -- Year: 1936
Date of Marriage (deduced from online index) = 19 December 1936
~ Lu
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1935 26 Graham Street, Auckland Central, Plaster
1938 Eden Supplemental roll
Edwin William RYAN 10 Cricket street Plasterer
Elsie May RYAN ditto. Married
1946 11 Kiwi Road, Grey Lynn, Plasterer. No Elsie
1949 11 Kiwi road, both Edwin and Elsie
1954 10 Cricket Avenue again, both there
1963 1 Peachgrove Road, Te Atatu both there
1972 1 Peachgrove Road. Edwin is a Council Foreman, Elsie still with him plus another Female E.M. Ryan (might still be living)
ditto 1972 for 1978
1981 all three, 1 Peachgrove Road, Edwin now retired.
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Cheers Mckha489 ... had been about to add similar information. :)
~ Lu
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Hello PatsyAnn
There appears to have been a child (daughter) of the marriage of Edwin and Elsie May. And as Mckha489 has suggested, she is probably still living so unable to post her details in this thread. Happy to supply them though if you want to PM me.
The funeral notice for Elsie May RYAN - died 1996 - would be worth obtaining also (for the reason that it would likely give more up-to-date info on the location of the couple's child, or children.)
~ Lu
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Some additional electoral info (gathered earlier) >
1935 - Auckland Central electoral roll
ARMSTRONG - Violet - married
ARMSTRONG - Henry Ernest - platelayer (Violet's husband)
RYAN - Winton Herbert - clerk (listed on Supplementary roll)
... all residing at 26 Graham Street
[+ RYAN - Edwin William - plasterer ]
1938 - same roll -- ARMSTRONG V. and H. + RYAN - Winton
~ Lu
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NZ Marriage - NZBDM (online index)
Edwin William RYAN -- Elsie May TAYLOR -- Year: 1936
Date of Marriage (deduced from online index) = 19 December 1936
~ Lu
Additional information added :
From another resource (NZSG Marriages CD) - the above marriage is indexed as >
TAYLOR - Elsie May
RYAN - Edwin William
TURNER - Edwin William
Year: 1936
* You would need to ascertain from the actual marriage record (printout), why it is the TURNER name has been included. (Possibly there is a notation on the record ? )
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Hello PatsyAnn,
I agree with Lu, it would be a good idea to obtain the 1996 death notice for Elsie May Ryan.
A request can be sent to:
https://www.aucklandlibraries.govt.nz/Pages/contact-us.aspx
Minniehaha.
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Hello PatsyAnn,
I agree with Lu, it would be a good idea to obtain the 1996 death notice for Elsie May Ryan.
A request can be sent to:
https://www.aucklandlibraries.govt.nz/Pages/contact-us.aspx
Minniehaha.
;)
PatsyAnn - info you'll need to provide >
Elsie May RYAN - aged 82 years
Date of Death : 23 February 1996
Date of Cremation : 27 February 1996
Waikumete Cemetery, Auckland
~ Lu
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Just in case anyone is looking, interment details for Winton Herbert Ryan & wife Mary (which included a plaque photograph) were forwarded to PatsyAnn by e-mail prior to the start of this topic.
Minniehaha.
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Thank you both that is fantastic. I am really grateful. I am not sure how to private message you Lucy?
Would appreciate the info.
Patsy
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Thanks Lu and Minnie I have done that by filling in a general enquiry form. Hope that is the right thing to do?
:)
Patsy
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Thanks Mckha48p for all those addresses. Great help
Patsy
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Thanks Patsy ... received your PM ... will reply shortly.
~ Lu
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Thanks Lu and Minnie I have done that by filling in a general enquiry form. Hope that is the right thing to do?
:)
Patsy
Spot on! :)
Minniehaha.
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:)
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Possibly no more information to be found here but the [1911] divorce file for Violet & Frank Turner is available:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=16697152
Held @ Auckland Archives. PatsyAnn you could start another topic along the lines of "Auckland Archives Look up" if someone does not jump in and offer first......
Minniehaha.
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Hi.
I can look it up on my next visit.
Alan.
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This time my query is linked, in that the above named was the son of a Violet Harvie Sweet who in 1910/1911 was being divorced by her then husband Frank Turner citing Sidney Rowe as co-respondent. Subsequently Violet and Sydney were said ( in the divorce papers) to be cohabiting in Auckland under the name of Harvey/Harvey. Violet gave birth to a son Winton Herbert Ryan in 1911
Best wishes
PatsyAnn
??? Assumed from this statement that PatsyAnn already in possession of Divorce papers. ???
~ Lu
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Yes, you are probably correct Lu. Will have to wait for PatsyAnn [UK] to come back on-line, so hold everything Alan. :)
Minniehaha.
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;D
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Had not even looked up to see if also available to view on line. Those big 600 page deed register books keep me going for hours, so no problem to use the four other concurrent call ups, for extraneous papers, and a quick look see.
Alan.
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Not sure if this has been covered but both of these births also come up under "TURNER" on NZ BDM.......
1911/13162 Ryan Winton Herbert Violet Sweet NR -
1914/21908 Ryan Edwin William Violet Sweet Sydney
Minniehaha.
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Hi again All and good morning
Thanks as ever for suggestions. Re the Turner divorce file I have not seen the file in the records but have read the various newspapers reports relating to it kindly provided by Minnie. Inaccurate message sending by me, will be more careful :-[
In the newspapers it says Violet and Syd were living in Auckland as Harvey.
Re the registration of the births as Turner under that other BMD reference which I was unaware of I am very surprised as by 1912 Frank had remarried as per one of my earlier posts. That would throw the cat among the pigeons!
Alan, if you are able to look at the divorce next time that would be really helpful. Whatever light it might throw on the paternity of Winton, born some months after the 1911 divorce would be good. If you aren't able I will then do what Minnie suggests and request a look up.
You are all very kind
Best wishes
Patsy
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Re-reading info I have already received in the previous thread re Bernard Rowe I do have what was in the divorce file between Frank Turner and Violet Sweet . Please ignore my earlier request to look at it again.
Sorry .
Patsy
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As per PM.
On next visit to the Auckland branch of the Archives, will order up some of the files referred to, so as to see if I can find any thing new of interest, to add to the thread.
Alan.
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Thanks very much Alan
Patsy
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Email contact successful. SMALL WORLD INDEED when you can name a near neighbour, as a friend, when you are half a world away.
Will inform the forum, and you directly, should I unearth interesting material at the Archives.
Alan.
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A few more snippets to add to the family tree which you may not have? :)
Death of the mother of Sydney ROWE [1933]………
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19331205.2.4?query=harriett%20martha%20rowe&start_date=01-01-1896&end_date=31-12-1950&snippet=true
Death of the father of Sydney ROWE [1934]……
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19340829.2.3?query=harriett%20martha%20rowe&start_date=01-01-1933&end_date=31-12-1950&snippet=true
Cemetery records:
ROWE, WILLIAM JOHN
Details M: Died 29-08-1934: Aged 68:
Place Hillsborough
Location Area 4 Block P Lot No 70
Remarks transcribed inscription reads " In loving memory of Harriett Martha dearly beloved wife of Wiliam John Rowe died 2 Dec 1933 aged 65 yrs Also William John dearly beloved husband of the late Harriett Martha Rowe died 29 Aug 1934 aged 69 yrs" Note different age at death
Information
Officiating
NZSG map
Trans number
________________________________________
Name ROWE, WILLIAM JOHN
Details M: Died 29-08-1934: Aged 68: Cause of death - carcinoma rectum: Date of burial - 30 Aug 1934
Place Hillsborough
Location Area 4 Block P Lot No 70
Remarks Headstone: Yes
Information Occuptation - retired: Residence - 243 Ponsonby Rd, Auckland: Friendly Road: Native place - Cornwall, England: Last from Cornwall: Years in NZ - 58
Officiating Officiating Clergy - Rev Scrimgeour: Informant - Cameron & Bartlett
NZSG map A4 R10
Trans number 1459
ROWE, HARRIETT MARTHA
Details F: Died 02-12-1933: Aged 65:
Place Hillsborough
Location Area 4 Block P Lot No 70
Remarks transcribed inscription reads " In loving memory of Harriett Martha dearly beloved wife of Wiliam John Rowe died 2 Dec 1933 aged 65 yrs Also William John dearly beloved husband of the late Harriett Martha Rowe died 29 Aug 1934 aged 69 yrs"
Information
Officiating
NZSG map
Trans number
________________________________________
Name ROWE, HARRIETT MARTHA
Details F: Died 02-12-1933: Aged 65: Cause of death - cerebral haemorhage: Date of burial - 4 Dec 1933
Place Hillsborough
Location Area 4 Block P Lot No 70
Remarks
Corrections - MI has HARRIETT not HARRIET: Headstone: Yes
Information Occuptation - married: Residence - 243 Ponsonby Rd: Bretheren: Native place - NZ: Last from NZ: Years in NZ - 65
Officiating Officiating Clergy - Mr James White & householders: Informant - J B Cameron
NZSG map A4 R10
Trans number 1459
Marriage:
1887/1008 Harriet Martha Ripley William John Rowe
Birth registration for Harriet Martha not found
PatsyAnn from the information provided I think you have details of the siblings of Sydney Rowe?
[Transcription/spelling errors shown above are not mine!!]
Minniehaha.
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The obituary of William John ROWE.....
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19340830.2.14?query=william%20john%20rowe&phrase=2&page=2&start_date=01-01-1839&end_date=31-12-1934&snippet=true
Minniehaha.
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Thanks very much for all that info Minnie. Yes I had the names of Sydney's siblings and have looked into some of the military records for a couple of them.
Best wishes
Patsy
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Hi PatsyAnn,
I know you now have information about W. H. Ryan and his connection with the Greek King's bodyguard but wondered if you have seen this photograph?
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19410628.2.44.1?query=w.%20h.%20ryan&phrase=2&start_date=01-01-1914&end_date=31-12-1950&snippet=true&type=ILLUSTRATION
[A nice looking young man.]
Minniehaha.
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Marriage:
1936/10652 Elsie May Taylor Edwin William Ryan
Birth of a daughter [1938]:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers?phrase=2&snippet=true&query=e.+w.+ryan&start_date=01-01-1938&end_date=31-12-1938
Added: And another snippet...
The marriage of Harriet(t) Martha Ripley & William John Rowe:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/THS18871224.2.10?query=martha%20ripley&phrase=2&snippet=true
Minniehaha.
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Thanks Minnie. I don't think the wedding report applies as it relates to Mr and Mrs E.P.Ryan and not E.W.Ryan. Great that you are finding all this info
Best Wishes
Patsy
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Photo is great Minnie. Yes nice looking and very happy. A bit of a hero too
Patsy
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Thanks Minnie. I don't think the wedding report applies as it relates to Mr and Mrs E.P.Ryan and not E.W.Ryan. Great that you are finding all this info
Best Wishes
Patsy
I must be having (another) 'senior moment' because I can't find a reference to E. P. Ryan in my message..... ???
Minniehaha. :)
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Hi Minnie
I love all the About Town snippets and who is staying at various hotels in the late 1930s. The E.P.Ryan mention is the Ryan/Cleland wedding 26/4/1938. Edward William seems to be their son.
Patsy
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This was the link showing the E. W. Ryan birth I put up in reply #71.....
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19380412.2.2?query=e.%20w.%20ryan&phrase=2&start_date=01-01-1938&end_date=31-12-1938&snippet=true
Minniehaha. :)
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Hi Minnie
Thanks for that. I carried on reading down all the Ryans marked in yellow on that newspaper page. #71 hence the reference to the wedding. Sorry thought you had marked them all. :-[
I believe that daughter may have died after 1985 and before 1996
Patsy
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That's a relief Patsy. Good to get it sorted. I thought I had lost the plot! ::)
Minniehaha.
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;D
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This thread is very long; I am not sure if this has been provided or not.....
WW1 & WW2 files for Henry Ernest Armstrong. The name of Violet Sweet is shown on Page 12.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24054180&digital=yes
Minniehaha.
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Not checked his file before Minnie so will read it now. Those WW1 records are very interesting. I have checked them for a couple of Sydney Rowe's brothers. The Rowe men had all been involved in brass bands and militia prior to joining up.
Thanks again
Patsy
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Hi PatsyAnn.
There are 3 Princes Street's in Auckland and oddly enough none are in Grey Lynn nor would they have ever been considered to be in Grey Lynn which is why I found that address curious.
The first Princes Street is in the centre of the city (where old Auckland Government House is),the second is in Onehunga and the third is in Otahuhu.
Cheers Janette
Hello Janette
When I saw your comment I just assumed you had consutled David VERRAN'S Auckland street names guide, but for the life of me I could not track it down on the Auckland Library site, and have only done so now, after phoning the library for their on-line link. My link was lost with the change from dial up emails, many moons ago.
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/streets/streets.html
Even last night, I was telling PatsyAnn that I had yet to find a survey plan for section 9, Parish of Waitemata, but I did NOT believe it was the CBD Princes Street. The great interactive CBD map of 1908/09 did not have a Turner as an owner nor occupier. [Click on blue pins.]
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/CityArchives/1908Map/browse1908map.htm
Mystery solved now. The Deed 186217 R24588336 refers to a section on Webber Street, Grey Lynn.
With the length of lot 12, being three times the width, the section will probably have a Webber Street address today of:- 5, 7, 9, 11 or 13. [The grey boxes on Google Maps]
Will up date the thread, re the Archives research results, when the last photos have been prepared and sent to PatsyAnn.
Alan.
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Great research . Thanks very much Alan for all the info. Amazing.
PatsyAnn
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Hi all. A fair bit of data so will split. Not sure of the character limit per post.
Hello all contributors.
On August 15th & 16th I was able to look up three references, at the Auckland branch of Archives NZ that are not available for viewing on line. A considerable number of photos were taken, and some 70 odd were supplied privately to PatsyAnn. A lot of the divorce proceedings file was repetitive papers re compliance, and the serving of notice, of the petition. Times were very tough for those without secure employment, and that is particularly reflected in the three items of correspondence that were tabled.
Two, pre hearing, distressed pleas from a distraught mother [Violet] to Frank, re seeing the children. Neither dated. One in hard to read pencil writing on a card, without addresses, and the penned letter was from Queen St Onehunga, where Violet stated she was about to leave Auckland for a situation where she could get £1 per week, and allowed to keep a baby.
Eight page letter addressed to Mrs V Turner, Ororke Street Onehunga, dated August 14th 1910 and addressed inside to My darling wife. [Many Darlings throughout] Letter was from Syd, in Wellington seeking work as a presser, and intro to the Master of the Mirimar Band….send for you soon…how are Nessie & Reggie…sorry about loosing Redvers [? FF] … warning about giving show away. Wish she could join him soon, when secure with a job.
For the record.
Government Advances to settlers Act 1906. Deed 186217 Archives Ref; R24588336
Mortgagor Daniel RYAN, a butcher of Grey Lynn, Auckland. Princes Street, Lot 12 section 4, Suburban Allotments ONE & TWO of section NINE, Parish of Waitemata.
[FF Note: Princes Street know known as Webber Street. Auckland Central Library (Heritage) David VERRAN’S Auckland street name guide, through time, including name changes.]
Deed of Mortgage, and an additional advance were signed by Daniel RYAN, and each were witnessed by the NEWTON Postmaster, Auckland. £300 25/9/1907 & £30 29/7/1908. 18A 444 3/8/1908, & Deed 191665 R150 page 456. [FF Yet to order and view] Dates of discharge of total Mortgage dues 8/3/1938 & 25/3/1938 599/125.
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BUT WAIT ... there is more 2/..
NZNA R16697152 Frank TURNER v Violet Sweet TURNER [Respondent] & Sydney ROWE [Co-respondent]
22/7/1911 Petition of Frank TURNER of Wharf Road Herne Bay Auckland. Coppersmith.
Respondent/s resident at Newton Road. Issue of Citation 9/8/1911. Hearing 14/8/1911, Subpoena 21/8/1911. Decree Nisi Absolute 15/6/1911.
Following marriage, petitioner cohabited at Mt Roskill, and other places.
Issue of marriage; Frank Regional Cyril TURNER b. 23/9/1903 and Ester Flora TURNER b. 1/6/1905. Petitioner seeks custody.
Statement that Violet left home 16th of February 1911. From March 8th 1911, lived with Sydney ROWE of Auckland, a Tailor’s presser. At various places, and particularly Newton Road, Auckland.
Also tabled.
Copy of marriage certificate. January 10th 1903. Mary & Charles ROSE Onehunga, witnesses.
Frank TURNER 23 Coppersmith, bachelor.
Father; John Thomas TURNER; Railway Guard, Wellington. Mother, Emma TURNER / SLATER
& Violet Sweet TURNER 21, spinster.
Father; Edwin Joseph HARVIE; Painter, Wellington. Mother; Ann Esther HARVIE / BARNES [Blue correction due to transcribing error]
DEED POLL name change. R25694896 Court filing date 12/2/1935 Winton Herbert TURNER to Winton Herbert RYAN. Correction thanks to eagle eyed Minniehaha
Winton Herbert TURNER … company secretary of Auckland …for many years … renounce and abandon the said original surname of TURNER … and adopt the said surname of RYAN. Petition filed by F. R. FOOTE, Solicitor of Auckland.
[Note OP & forum posts #9 - #13 incorrect assumption re name change, and my slip up re Mortgagee / Mortgagor.]
W. H. TURNER historic birth registration shows up as 1/6/1911, but to my surprise, no birth certificate was attached to the deed poll application.
Alan.
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Brilliant job Alan! A lot of work involved, well done. ;D ;D
I have been following this topic with interest both here and behind the scenes. Archives and Papers Past have revealed so much. It is not easy to keep up with it all..... ;D
Minniehaha.
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Marvellous to know so much about this family now, and their many trials and tribulations. Thanks so much Alan for digging deep into the archives with such energy and generosity and thanks to everyone for their great contributions. I am very grateful Patsy
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1933/9497 Harvie Ann Esther 74Y
1940/26204 Harvie Edwin Joseph 81Y
Obituary of Edwin Joseph Harvie:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ROTWKG19400703.2.24?query=edwin%20joseph%20harvie&start_date=01-01-1940&end_date=31-12-1940&snippet=true
Added:
Bereavement notice [1933]…..
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19331018.2.2.4?query=e.%20j.%20harvie&phrase=2&start_date=01-01-1933&end_date=31-12-1934&snippet=true&title=KWE,NZ,NZH,PWT,ROTWKG,TO,ACNZC,AKTIM,NZHAG,FRTIM,ALG,AS,DSC
Marriage: [Not sure where 'Slater' fits in]
1882/1221 Ann Esther Barnes Edwin Joseph Harvie
Minniehaha.
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Yep, to keep tabs I should really create a time line. Edited my post re an assumption, then realized later that the Syd letter was dated August 1910 not August 1911. Posibility that the "Redvers" comment referred to the early miscarrage of a child by Syd in August 1910. H/W current Webber St homes.
Alan
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Marriage: [Not sure where 'Slater' fits in]
Minniehaha.
Thanks - post edited and corrected - Alan.
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The probated will of Edwin Joseph HARVIE......
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9GG-4ZYY?i=346&wc=4BVZ-DXR%3A1045247701%2C1579871577&cc=1865481
These Harvie births appear to be the only ones registered:
1896/1450 Harvie Gertrude Alice Ann Esther Edwin Joseph -
1900/6737 Harvie Esther Grace Ann Esther Edwin Joseph
Minniehaha.
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5 Princes Street, Grey Lynn, was where Violet Rowe, common-law wife of Sydney was living in 1915....
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19150928.2.57?query=sydney%20rowe&phrase=2&start_date=01-01-1914&end_date=31-12-1915&snippet=true&title=KWE,NZ,NZH,PWT,ROTWKG,TO,ACNZC,AKTIM,NZHAG,FRTIM,ALG,AS,DSC
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZTIM19151020.2.44?query=violet%20rowe&phrase=2&start_date=01-01-1914&end_date=31-12-1915&snippet=true
Minniehaha.
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That's how I read it too Alan. Assumed the Redvers was a not too veiled reference/code name for an expected child of Sydney's, then sadly miscarried. Would certainly add to my view that Winton Herbert Ryan/Turner born June 1911 was Sydney's child as was his younger brother Edwin 1914 according to the birth registration.
The houses above look very nice!
PatsyAnn
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Perhaps Daniel Ryan was the landlord of Violet and Sydney to begin with...?
PatsyAnn
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The Harvie headstone shows details for Ann Esther correctly but her husband is "Edward Joseph"; date of death 30.6.1943. ??? Although his correct name is shown on a second headstone.
[Actual date of death was 28.6.1940]
https://billiongraves.com/grave/Ann-Esther-Harvie/11060833?referrer=myheritage
No Edward Joseph Harvie death registered in 1943.
Death notice for son, 'Ted' [1913]. Name also shown on headstone…..
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19130514.2.2.2?query=%20harvie%20canada&start_date=01-01-1913&end_date=31-12-1913&snippet=true
Birth registration not found for him.
Added:
However-
Edwin William HARVIE born about June 1884 (?)…
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS18840925.2.18?query=edwin%20harvie&page=5&start_date=01-01-1880&end_date=31-12-1913&snippet=true&title=KWE,NZ,NZH,PWT,ROTWKG,TO,ACNZC,AKTIM,NZHAG,FRTIM,ALG,AS,DSC&type=ARTICLE
Added: Cemetery details in Canada-
Last Name First Name Burial Date Cemetery Section Block Plot
HARVIE EDWIN 05/08/1913 MOUNT PLEASANT C 74 4
Some snippets here about Edwin William Harvie......
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=26908
The shipping list referred to in the above link?...
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-61K9-2K8?cc=1609792&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQJDV-8LNM
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19120702.2.40?query=e.%20w.%20harvie&phrase=2&start_date=01-01-1906&end_date=31-12-1913&snippet=true
Minniehaha.
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Some more information re the known siblings of Violet Sweet nee Harvie........
Marriages:
1920/9971 Gertrude Alice Harvie James Leonard McWatt
1923/8616 Esther Grace Harvie Roderick Matheson Neeley
Deaths:
1966/40711 Neeley Esther Grace 66Y
1972/43550 Neeley Roderick Matheson 75Y
Probated will- Esther Grace Neeley:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=14772019
Probated will- Roderick Matheson Neeley [can be viewed/downloaded for free]. Second wife and children named.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=13103750&digital=yes
His WW1 file:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=21379590&digital=yes
Marriage notices:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ROTWKG19201124.2.15?query=gertrude%20alice%20harvie&start_date=01-01-1920&end_date=31-12-1920&snippet=true
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/PWT19201112.2.11?query=gertrude%20alice%20harvie&start_date=01-01-1920&end_date=31-12-1920&snippet=true
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZH19201209.2.2.3?query=gertrude%20alice%20harvie&start_date=01-01-1920&end_date=31-12-1920&snippet=true
Divorce files Gertrude Alice McWatt:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=21379590&digital=yes
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22651865
Minniehaha.
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Another late night of research.
PLEASE NOTE in repy #85 the divorce decree absolute, should read the year later, so therefore 15-6-1912
Aplogies - Alan.
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Hi there
Violet Sweet Harvie was my great grandmother
Her name was on birth record was incorrectly recorded as
Violet Sweet HARIRE 1883/5510
Parents Ann Esther and Edwin Joseph
Thank you Pat and everyone for all your time effort and research into discovering all the information thus far regarding my great grandfather Sydney (aka Sidney) Rowe
My grandfather was Winton Herbert Ryan and we never knew he was not a Ryan!
He had on his marriage certificate to my grandmother that his father was Herbert William Ryan
Interesting as his middle name was Herbert and his brother Edwin was William then add the Ryan
I am still not sure as to why he changed his name to Ryan??? after Violet marrying Daniel Ryan in 1918 but divorcing a few years later??
Also I'm interested to find out what happened between Syndey and Violet's relationship as he married Olive in 1917 and Bernard Sydney also born 1917
Violet also marring Daniel Ryan (possibly the landlord)? in 1918???
Why did Sydney not keep in touch with his two sons to Violet?
Is 1936 the correct date of name change by deed poll of Winton Herbert Turner to Ryan or is it meant as changed before 1936?? It seems strange that he would change it to Ryan after Violet divorced Daniel Ryan on grounds of desertion in 1928
I am eternally grateful for the information provided by all of you as it has finally helped in piecing the puzzle together
With kindest regards and gratitude
Actually a Rowe :)
The probated will of Edwin Joseph HARVIE......
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9GG-4ZYY?i=346&wc=4BVZ-DXR%3A1045247701%2C1579871577&cc=1865481
These Harvie births appear to be the only ones registered:
1896/1450 Harvie Gertrude Alice Ann Esther Edwin Joseph -
1900/6737 Harvie Esther Grace Ann Esther Edwin Joseph
Minniehaha.
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Hello rowetown,
A very warm welcome to Rootschat! :)
No wonder we could not find the birth registration for Violet Sweet Harvie! Another mystery solved.
Added: In case this is unknown, her actual date of birth was:1.4.1883.
Together I'm sure we will be able to break through a few more of those remaining brick walls.
We look forward to hearing from you again......
Minniehaha.
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Thank you very much Minniehaha :)
Yes quite a few mysteries in our family that I hope we can continue to uncover
With smiles and gratitude :)
-
....EDITED....
Violet also marring Daniel Ryan (possibly the landlord)? in 1918???
Why did Sydney not keep in touch with his two sons to Violet?
Is 1936 the correct date of name change by deed poll of Winton Herbert Turner to Ryan or is it meant as changed before 1936?? It seems strange that he would change it to Ryan after Violet divorced Daniel Ryan on grounds of desertion in 1928
....EDITED....]
Welcome to the thread ROWETOWN.
If I can get my hands on some early survey plans with sufficient resolution I should be able to see how the original survey allotment numbers relate, to todays street numbers, and may be able to provide more answers.
Re the deed poll question, with regard to the actual dates on the record I looked up, clippings attached.
If you are not / have not shared, with PatsyAnn; by supplying me by Private Message, with an email address, I can share with you, the Auckland archives look-up photos.
Regards,
Alan.
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Hello Alan
I was just about to ask you privately if I had your permission to share with her all the fantastic stuff you have provided me with following a marathon stint at the archives . I will send the info to her by email as we have been in touch for a few weeks now.
Rowetown I will forward Alan's stuff.
Thanks very much
Pat
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All Good. In a look up of Webber St in papers past I tonight found a Deposit Plan number for a survey that includes lot 5, Section 9. As Daneil RYAN'S was lot 12, Section 9, Parish of Waitemata, it should be possible to determine todays street numbering. Assuming I can locate the deposited plan.
Alan.
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I have received the Registration printout of the birth of Edwin William Ryan Reg No 1914/21908
Registration dater 22nd September 1914 Date of birth 30th June 1914 at New North Road, Eden Terrace
Mother Violet Sweet Turner ( NB the decree absolute of her divorce from Frank Turner was 1912)
Nee Harvie Born Auckland Age 27
Father Sydney Rowe
Born Thames
Aged 25 Occupation Tailors Presser
Parents relationship; Not in a legal relationship
First Informant Sydney Rowe. Father Glen Terrace
Second informant Violet Sweet Turner. Mother . Glen Terrace
I believe Rowetown has sent for birth certificate for his brother Winton Herbert Ryan currently awaited.
Thanks
PatsyAnn
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Hello again.
Have booked for Friday viewing, a plan which I hope may show how the street numbers compared to the lot numbers, in that area of Auckland. Will keep you briefed.
Alan.
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Tanks very much Alan
Patsy