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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: LaytonLily on Sunday 25 August 19 08:59 BST (UK)
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I would like to know how I might find out information concerning ancestors who went from England to Jamaica around the 1830's. They each appear to have had a business there. William was born about 1815 and Thomas about 1817.
I understand William left a Will when he died in Jamaica about 1859 - how could I get a copy of that Will ? Thomas appears to have moved from Jamaica to Brooklyn, New York and thought to have died in 1888 - how could I check if he left a Will and if so, how might I get a copy ?
Thank you for any help.
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Thomas’ administration here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=817760.
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William’s will in the indexes
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Breakspear&yearOfDeath=1859&page=5#calendar
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I'm not sure what you have on JOHN/EMMA Breakspear the boys Parents?
They seem to have married 1801 in Oxfordshire, Emma nee Salmon
John was a Excise Officer on the Bapt of Thomas 1817 (FreeREG)
I think Emma is still alive in 1851 born c 1778 Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire
John/Emma were witnesses to the Marriage of Daug Eliza Ann 1830 Harborne, Staffs
The signatures seem to match 1801 Marriage.
Trish :)
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Many thanks Trish 1120. Yes I do have that information but thank you. It is the parents of Thomas Breakspear Salmon has been the sticking point. But also, because we had no real information on them, we were not 100% convinced John and Emma were the grand parents. If seemed to tie up with him taking on the name Breakpsear Salmon for some reason but I needed something to tie them up with TBS born 1839. This website was a help in the past in that respect.
But it is now trying to find out if the Thomas Breakspear found in Jamaican records is TBS's father. He is also there with his brother William and there are letters found from both of them to their sister in Birmingham Jane Davies, who was Breakspear, so a daughter of John and Emma. Thomas Salmon, Jeweller (which he was) is living with her in 1861 - this information was again provided by folks on Roots.chat.
There are two families in Jamaica for Thomas Breakspear - one was provided from folks here in reply to my original question which confused me again ! I had him married to Frances Louise Cooper born 1831 - one of their children was Emma Theresa Ellen born 1857 - but then someone here said there were baptism entries for father being Thomas Breakspear, mother was Sarah Cadwell and one of their children Charles John born 1848. Now I wonder was Sarah the first wife of Thomas and he married Frances after ? Or were there two Thomas Breakspear's in Jamaica at the same time !
We are very fortunate when I think about it, having the ability in this country to search for birth marriage and death registrations, and send for certificates, which can give us so much helpful information. For family in other countries this is just not available it seems. I would like a marriage cert. for Thomas and Sarah and Thomas and Frances to give me their father's name and occupation etc. !
No marriage cert or census entries found for Thomas Breakspear Salmon and Eliza, shown as the parents of TBS born 1839. Just wonder why he called himself Thomas Breakspear Salmon in 1839 if he is really Thomas Breakspear in Jamaica. Maybe TBS shown as father was really a relative of Emma Salmon. Ah well - it keeps the brain cells ever active !
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With regard to the Jamaican records, there is the marriage announcement to Sarah Cadwell and then the children’s baptisms.
There are later baptisms for Thomas and Frances.
If I recall, the children (or some) from both sets of records are with Thomas and Frances in USA and also mentioned in the administration record you have.
This strongly indicates that it is the same person.
You have him in Jamaica in early 1840s through Freemason’s membership together with William.
It is a pity that you can’t find your Thomas in 1841 and immigration records for Thomas snr :-\
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I know heywood . I can never fully accept someone found unless there is at least one way to double check they are who I think they are. So for Thomas Breakspear and Sarah Cadwell I really want something like a marriage certificate saying his father was John Breakspear. Same with Frances Louise the same. I think I have found one of the sons of Thomas and Sarah living with Thomas and Frances in New York on 1870 census, so needs a bit more checking but that ties the two families up together !
I have been searching on this family for a few years, finding bits that I was unsure of, but keeping them tucked away just in case, as you do. Then some time later, finding some verification for those 'bits' as relating to the Breakspear / Salmon family. And so it goes on of course.
Yes I would like to know when Thomas went over to Jamaica, one would think after the birth of his son in 1839, so if he went before then, 'this' Thomas is not the father of TBS born 1839 !
As I thought of before, what if TBS was the son of a relative of Emma Salmon (who was married to John Breakspear) I would still believe this Jamaica family is still related to him via his grand parents, but this Thomas is not his father - Thomas is quite a common name after all. Because I always thought it odd in Jamaica he is Breakspear but the baptism for TBS in 1839 show his father as Thomas Breakspear Salmon - Breakspear being used there as a second name.
Ah well again - it gives me breaks coming here to work on from working in the heat in the garden !
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So this is his Birth Reg?
SALMON, THOMAS - No Mothers maiden name
GRO Reference: 1839 J Quarter in THE WALSALL UNION Volume 17 Page 230
So Thomas was the illeg Son of ELIZA Salmon with Thomas BREAKSPEAR
That is how the Baptism reads to me also.
1861 TS is a Cousin of Edward/Sarah Stoke nee Davis.
1851 the Nephew of Emma Breakspear.
Also in 1851 Census Sarah Ann Davis c 1839, later Stokes, is living with her Family next door to Emma Breakspear.
Parents JOHN/JANE Davis
Jane BREAKSPEAR, Single married John DAVIS
29 Sep 1828, St. Philip, Birmingham, Warwick, England
1851 Jane Davis is born c 1805 Kings Langley, Kent
1871 c 1805 Stokelargley Herefordshire
1861 we have;
Edward Stokes 24
Sarah A Stokes 22
Ellen Stokes 1 mth
Jane Davies 58 Boarder Widow born Oxfordshire
Thomas Salmon 22
JANE Breakspear
Christened 20 January 1805, Kings Langley, Hertford, England
Birth 23 December 1804
Parents JOHN/EMMA
Trish :)
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Well I never Trish1120! I thought I had looked for a birth cert for him but failed to find one and only had the baptism record. I had not thought it might have been as you say, until thinking it all through over recent days. I have now sent for the birth cert as pdf. Not that it might tell me any more than the baptism record of course.
So maybe Eliza ,mother of TBS, was a relative of his grandmother, a Salmon, so perhaps a niece of Emma and maybe yes, the father was Thomas Breakspear, so a cousin. Now I need to find any siblings of Emma Salmon and who had a daughter named Eliza !
I do have the other information you supplied but thank you indeed. (mostly helped by folks on this website previously !)
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I know that it is important to have the details re your Thomas, I was just trying to tidy up the Jamaican Thomas.
I can’t see much(if anything)on a Newspaper search on FindMyPast but there may be something in local newspapers of the time about the brothers’ departure or business.
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Thank you heywood for suggesting local newspapers to search on. I am going to the Archive Dept at the main Birmingham Library in a couple of weeks, booked in to view documents, so I will see what they might have.
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Hopefully, there will be something. You would think so if they were businessmen.
Maybe there would be an 1843 marriage announcement to Sarah Cadwell other than the Colonial Magazine.
The Williams family (Sarah’s father the deceased John Williams) is mentioned in various Jamaican records.
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I hope all all works out and the Birth Cert confirms info.
I havent found Thomas in 1841 Census and looked for a possible Marriage for Eliza Salmon but there are several.
I was hoping to find Thomas in 1841 with his Mother now possibly married.
Trish :)
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I know Trish 1120, I want it all nice and clear and obvious, great when it is, but sadly more often it isn't.
Other family members (in Australia) have suggested the mother could have been Eliza Ann Breakspear born 1811, sister of Thomas Breakspear born 1817. She had been married to Walter Showell, he had died 1835. She re-married in 1840. But there is no evidence for this and who was the father anyway. They thought the baptism entry had been 'massaged' so it didn't make her look bad, and it was nearly 12 months after the birth - time they thought to decide what to say ! But the birth cert presumably will have been issued at the time of his birth in 1839, so we will see.
On the marriage cert. for Thomas in 1866 it says his father is Thomas Breakspear Salmon, Factor. But again things were made up to suit the circumstances of the time on both birth and marriage certificates ! Might yet have to let it go and accept his parents will never be truthfully known.
I have details of John Breakspear's siblings but nothing on Emma Salmon's siblings or parents.
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Hope the Cert will clear it up.
If you reply to this I will be notified. This will prompt my memory!
I am going away for a few days so when I get back will see what I can find on the Salmons. :)
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Couldnt help myself :)
EMRY Salmon
Gender: Female***
Christening Date: 26 Jul 1771
CHIPPING NORTON,OXFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name:
JNO. Salmon
Mother's Name:
ANN
Siblings;
WILLIAM 03 JUN 1762
HENRY 30 Mar 1769
EMERY (Female) 21 Sep 1775**********
THOMAS 6 August 1773
1851 Census has a Henry Salmon Head 82 born Chipping Norton, Oxon
So 1st Emry (Emma) must gave died.
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I am so glad you couldn't resist! Thank you so much. I will say it again - how do you folks do it ?! Did you find it on Family Search ? I have cancelled my Ancestry membership from this month - it encouraged me to spend far too much time sitting in front of this computer. But I will go to local library to use it for free.
There is website - morganfourman - which has details about John Breakspear and his daughter Eliza Ann, which has given some helpful details. Don't think this Breakspear family is related 'the' Breakspear brewing family, but there are a number of connections with brewing and wine in this family. Eliza Ann's son, Walter Showell, went on to become major brewer in Birmingham in 1880's according to this website.
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Trish1120 Unfortunately the birth certificate sent for Thomas Salmon - father Thomas Breakspear Salmon and mother Eliza ? was not the one. The mother was shown as Catherine Salmon. Single woman. Her Thomas born in May, 'my' Thomas born in January 1839. If only we / I could find Thomas on 1841 census, surely he would be with his mother or at least a recognised family member.
Ah well, that's how it goes. At least I am doing some more research on your great find of Emma Salmon's family. It appears her brother Henry was a Wool stapler, and as they were living in Witney, Oxfordshire ever likely to work for the Witney blanket company - they were considered the best blankets to buy ! So have found 2 websites related to that trade to explore.