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General => Armed Forces => Armed Forces Resources => Topic started by: janjim on Saturday 31 August 19 00:03 BST (UK)
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Hi,
We are struggling to identify a certain person by the name of John Greenfield who married Ada New in 1894 at Newbury, Berkshire England. At the time, the marriage certificate shows that he was based at Aldershot, was in the Army Corp, he was aged 22 years and his wife 19 years of age. His Father was John Greenfield, a Bricklayer. This would make John Greenfield Jnr. being born around 1872.
There were 3 children born from this marriage with the surname of Greenfield, but by 1901 census, his occupation was then a House Painter, still living in Newbury.
There is a gap of 5 years before more children were born, these children now having the surname of Greenfield/Broadbridge. 1911 census showed Ada living with William Broadbridge and living at Handsworth, Staffordshire, his occupation being Tram Driver.
One could assume that her marriage had failed with John Greenfield, and that Ada then became involved with this gentleman Broadbridge.
However there is a feeling that John Greenfield maybe then changed his name to William Broadbridge, due to some problems he may have had with the military, particularly in regard to being called up for service. Another thought is that he was always William Broadbridge, changed his name to John Greenfield when he married Ada, and then in trouble with the military, reverted back to his original name of Broadbridge.
So looking between the last child born in Newbury in 1898 and 1903, we have been searching for military records to confirm this John Greenfield, and have found one John being charged 18.12.1900 RFA Reg - Records WO86/51 which shows he was given 14 days detention apparently in regard to not wearing the correct uniform. Have not found military record for William Broadbridge.
We now come to 1939 census, and we finally have a date of birth for this William Broadbridge, which is now 21.4.1869, a Retired Train Driver, 3 years older than John Greenfield. (we have photographs of him in train driver's uniform)
Wondering if anyone could assist me to ascertain any military records for enlistment in the Army at Aldershot from around 1891 through to 1894 with the names of William Broadbridge or John Greenfield.
It is all quite a strange scenario, but anything was possible in those days, to avoid the call up.
Jan
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You don't mention his birth place, both the census you mention have Ada's husband as born Fulham, Middlesex :)
The 1939 was not a census but a registration for war purposes. :)
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Rosie,
All right then I used the wrong word, registration for war purposes in 1939. John Greenfield was born in Fulham, also was William Broadbridge born in Fulham.
Jan
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Who were the wedding witnesses
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Rosie, All Ada New's family, Father Charles New Snr., Brother Charles E New Jnr., Aunt Elizabeth New and Ada's younger sister Edith Nellie New.
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What was the exact wording of his regiment? "Army Corp" makes no sense but registrars often garbled army titles.
There was no call up until 1916 which does not seem to fit your suspected name change (or does it?). He was too old for WW2 call up.
The court martial register will have no personal identifying detail but it is on Fold3 which I don't have access to (or you need to see it at the National Archives) so if his specific unit is there it may help.
MaxD
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Hi,
We are struggling to identify a certain person by the name of John Greenfield who married Ada New in 1894 at Newbury, Berkshire England. At the time, the marriage certificate shows that he was based at Aldershot, was in the Army Corp, he was aged 22 years and his wife 19 years of age. His Father was John Greenfield, a Bricklayer. This would make John Greenfield Jnr. being born around 1872.
There were 3 children born from this marriage with the surname of Greenfield, but by 1901 census, his occupation was then a House Painter, still living in Newbury.
There is a gap of 5 years before more children were born, these children now having the surname of Greenfield/Broadbridge. 1911 census showed Ada living with William Broadbridge and living at Handsworth, Staffordshire, his occupation being Tram Driver.
One could assume that her marriage had failed with John Greenfield, and that Ada then became involved with this gentleman Broadbridge.
However there is a feeling that John Greenfield maybe then changed his name to William Broadbridge, due to some problems he may have had with the military, particularly in regard to being called up for service. Another thought is that he was always William Broadbridge, changed his name to John Greenfield when he married Ada, and then in trouble with the military, reverted back to his original name of Broadbridge.
So looking between the last child born in Newbury in 1898 and 1903, we have been searching for military records to confirm this John Greenfield, and have found one John being charged 18.12.1900 RFA Reg - Records WO86/51 which shows he was given 14 days detention apparently in regard to not wearing the correct uniform. Have not found military record for William Broadbridge.
We now come to 1939 census, and we finally have a date of birth for this William Broadbridge, which is now 21.4.1869, a Retired Train Driver, 3 years older than John Greenfield. (we have photographs of him in train driver's uniform)
Wondering if anyone could assist me to ascertain any military records for enlistment in the Army at Aldershot from around 1891 through to 1894 with the names of William Broadbridge or John Greenfield.
It is all quite a strange scenario, but anything was possible in those days, to avoid the call up.
Jan
Hi,
I am interested in learning about the possibility of men avoiding the call up in those days ... I was not aware of any compulsory military call up in that era ... I had understood UK conscription into the army was introduced during WWI ... I was not aware of any in the 1890s or 1900s, Boer War in Africa saw volunteers from throughout the Empire serve there.
I am keen to learn more... :D
JM in NSW, Australia.
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What I am looking for is a register of persons enlisting around the late 1890's, which would have been the Boer War.
Jan
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I am somewhat confuddled ... if you have him on the UK 1901census as a house painter, why would he have been in the Army 1899-1902 Boer War ... in Africa?
JM
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Majm
See my post at 0924. It is the case that conscription in UK was introduced for the first time by the Military Service Act 1916. Previous conflicts had been fought by volunteers.
Janjim
There is no central register of men joining the many regiments and corps of the British Army in any period. One can only look for individual names in the records that do exist. Unfortunately, many records of the time do not have personal identifying information. Example - a small number of men listed as J Greenfield come up in the Boer war medal roll but all that gives is a name and regiment, none appear to have any other records.
I find no records that might be your man. The 1901 census at Aldershot doesn't throw up either name.
MaxD
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Thanks MaxD :D
JM
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Daughter Mabel makes a surprise return to Newbury records in 1906
Mabel Greenfield, born 18.11.95
Admitted to St Nicholas Church Of England School 2.10.06
Last school Handsworth
Left 29.10.06
Was a visitor + has left Newbury
Did she die as Mabel Edith K Broadbridge in 1980?
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Death
March 1941 Birmingham 6d 5
Broadbridge, Ada
age 65
Marriage
Sep 1944 Birmingham 6d 355
Broadbridge, William
Holdsworth, Mary M.
Has janjim got this marriage certificate?
1945 electoral register has them at 10 Cornwall Road Handsworth.
1939 electoral register had William and Ada Broadbridge at that address.
Don't think it was mentioned on this previous thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=767018.0
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Have you discounted the William Broadbridge bn c1869 who was living in Fulham with his widowed mother Harriet
1871 -RG10/69 f96 p35
1881- RG11/66 f44 p17
1891- RG12/46 f132 p30 - William age 20 Railway Engine Cleaner bn Fulham
Harriet died in 1893.
In 1861 she is with her husband George RG9/33 f78 p16. Georges occupation was a Brick Layer
I ought to go and read your other thread in case it has already been mentioned.
ADDED - OK have seen this has already been mentioned.
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Yes I am just as confuddled about this man as you are JM, the marriage certificate shows him as being in the Army Service Corp at Aldershot in 1894. Retract my statement about the Boer War.
Come 1903 when his son Frederick George Greenfield Broadbridge was born, John Greenfield/William Broadbridge's occupation is now shown as Tramway Man.
Jan
I am somewhat confuddled ... if you have him on the UK 1901census as a house painter, why would he have been in the Army 1899-1902 Boer War ... in Africa?
JM
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Rosie, No, I have not discounted this theory at all. For whatever reason it seems to me that William Broadbridge should be the man, but when he married Ada New, he somehow decided to change his name to John Greenfield.
Jan
Have you discounted the William Broadbridge bn c1869 who was living in Fulham with his widowed mother Harriet
1871 -RG10/69 f96 p35
1881- RG11/66 f44 p17
1891- RG12/46 f132 p30 - William age 20 Railway Engine Cleaner bn Fulham
Harriet died in 1893.
In 1861 she is with her husband George RG9/33 f78 p16. Georges occupation was a Brick Layer
I ought to go and read your other thread in case it has already been mentioned.
ADDED - OK have seen this has already been mentioned.
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jon,
No I don't have the marriage certificate for William Broadbridge in 1944, after Ada's death.
We did hear that he married again. It could be worth getting this, maybe provide with more information, but English certificates do not give much detailed information compared to Australian.
Jan
Death
March 1941 Birmingham 6d 5
Broadbridge, Ada
age 65
Marriage
Sep 1944 Birmingham 6d 355
Broadbridge, William
Holdsworth, Mary M.
Has janjim got this marriage certificate?
1945 electoral register has them at 10 Cornwall Road Handsworth.
1939 electoral register had William and Ada Broadbridge at that address.
Don't think it was mentioned on this previous thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=767018.0
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The clarification of his regiment as the Army Service Corps (spelled with an s and a silent p as in swimming) doesn't help unfortunately. Even then the ASC was a large organisation and even if we knew which specific unit of the ASC he served in wouldn't get us any further as there appear to be no Greenfield (or Broadbridge) service records popping up for that time period. Generally, if a man didn't serve a full 21 years and was discharged without a disability, then his records were not retained.
MaxD
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Thank you Max. Think our man has made his story up on the marriage certificate.
Jan
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Thank you Max. Think our man has made his story up on the marriage certificate.
Jan
Sorry, but why do you think your chap made his story up when marrying .... MaxD explained circumstances where the Military did not retain the records .....
I am sure that, just as in NSW, Australia, so too in England, that civil registration of births did NOT include any Surname for the baby, until the systems changed in the 1960s. .
So I am sure that in England, in the 1890s and 1900s the informant, if baby's mum, would give her THEN known by surname,, so If married, even if separated from husband she may have given Greenfield or even a doube barrel name, and she may well have continued to do so for several years. Yes, John Greenfield may have changed his names and birth info on official records, but so far, there is nothing to suggest that the info on the marriage cert for John would be made up by him or anyone else, or that William and John are one and the same person.
JM
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JM,
The whole story on Greenfield/Broadbridge is very confusing. One side of the family descendants believes that he was always a Broadbridge, but changed his name to Greenfield for whatever reason.
Our side of the family, in researching, seems to believe that Greenfield maybe died in 1904 and that his wife Ada then formed a relationship with a Broadbridge and moved to Handsworth, where she had more children, but this time with the surname of Greenfield/Broadbridge.
We continue our search, and felt that if we could find more information on John Greenfield with the Army Service Corp at Aldershot, this might solve the story.
jan
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1881 UK Census
There's William BROADBRIDGE, born circa 1870, Fulham with his mother, a widow, at May Street, Fulham
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-7BH7
There's John GREENFIELD, born circa 1871, with his father, a widower, at Eli Street, Fulham
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-7TGH
To me, that's two different lads.
I cannot see where any of Ada's five children used the double barrel surname GREENFIELD-BROADBRIDGE. I can see where two of the younger ones had Greenfield as one of their Christening names, but NOT a surname.
JM
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Hi again, yes I have been going through Ancestry for quite a while today, and found William Broadbridge with his Mother in 1871 census. Been looking at Greenfield too.
I have to disagree with you on the double barrel name, I have found all of the younger children born since 1903 with the Greenfield/Broadbridge surname. The three older children, Mabel Edith Kate Greenfield b. 1895, Charles John Greenfield b. 1897 d. 1897 and Charles William J. Greenfield b. 1898. Then there is a gap of about 5 years before the older children arrive starting 1903 through to 1911.
The eldest child Mabel Greenfield, actually took on the name of Mabel Broadbridge, there is one of her books "Too Old at Forty" available on her life as a Missionary in China.
1881 UK Census
There's William BROADBRIDGE, born circa 1870, Fulham with his mother, a widow, at May Street, Fulham
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-7BH7
There's John GREENFIELD, born circa 1871, with his father, a widower, at Eli Street, Fulham
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-7TGH
To me, that's two different lads.
I cannot see where any of Ada's five children used the double barrel surname GREENFIELD-BROADBRIDGE. I can see where two of the younger ones had Greenfield as one of their Christening names, but NOT a surname.
JM
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Where do you see the surname as GREENFIELD/BROADBRIDGE? 1911, it is Broadbridge... as I mentioned in an earlier post ...I can see baptisms in parish registers where two of the younger ones have Greenfield as one of the Christian names but mum and dad are BROADBRIDGE. I cannot see where the double barrel surnames appear on any registers ... civil or parish. I see nothing odd in Mabel becoming known as Broadbridge when an adult. Afterall it had become the surname of her mum when Mabel was a child. I am sure that happened many times in England for it certainly happened throughout NSW across the generations ... children became known by the surname mum used at any given time .... children's surnames at school could change from class to class, particularly if dad was no longer around.
To me, the only mystery you have is simply what happened to John ... afterall, you can find Ada and her children... he was there in 1901 ...
JM
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majm, yes I agree with you then, Greenfield definitely appears as one of the Christian names on the baptisms then.
In fact Probate records for the eldest daughter Mabel Broadbridge, appear as Mabel Edith Kate Greenfield, etc. etc. Broadbridge.
Yes I agree with you also that the bottom line is, we are trying to determine whether John Greenfield, her husband she married in 1894 was in fact still with her, (but changed his name) when they moved to Handsworth or whether she had a new partner by the name of William Broadbridge.
Of course it was Ada's perogative to give the children whatever names she chose, so obviously she felt maybe more comfortable with giving them the Greenfield name as well, to make life a bit easier for the younger children born to her, if she had taken on a new partner.
I think we are convinced now that John Greenfield must have died, there is one registration in 1904 of a death, but in Camberwell, London, seems out of the ordinary seeing they lived at Newbury in Berkshire. Maybe he just disappeared off the face of the earth, as several other of our families have done.
Jan
Jan
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Deceasedonline has the details for the 1904 burial
Greenfield - John
burial date 28 July 1904
location Southwark
Grave details and 5 other burials £1.50
Burial register scan £2.00
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Have you discounted the William Broadbridge bn c1869 who was living in Fulham with his widowed mother Harriet
1871 -RG10/69 f96 p35
1881- RG11/66 f44 p17
1891- RG12/46 f132 p30 - William age 20 Railway Engine Cleaner bn Fulham
A question springs to mind.
If John and William were two different people, where is William Broadbridge in 1901?
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Jon,
That is right, but we have John Greenfield with wife Ada in 1901 census at Newbury with 2 children. By 1903 the rest of her children have the names incorporating Greenfield, and then Broadbridge.
John Greenfield died 1904 !!! Maybe she left him for William Broadbridge, had his first child, then John died later. Guess maybe we need a death certificate for John Greenfield in 1904 to confirm.
Jan