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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Louth => Topic started by: Suemagoo on Monday 02 September 19 17:31 BST (UK)
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I am just starting to research my 4x Great Grandfather Brabazon Disney Shiels (Shields) and I am so confused.
The name Brabazon I thought unusual even for back then, so googled and it states a Brabazon was Anglo-Norman, and many bearers were Mercenary soldiers from England, then spreading to Scotland, Ireland and Wales. So not sure what his actual name was.
I then notice that there is a Church record recorded both in the Catholic and COI Church records for Brabazon Disney Shiels, married Rose Rooney on 11 March 1850. His Father was William Shiels and Rose's Father Patrick Rooney (Roony). In the Catholic entry under the name it says 2 Priests?
They were married in Darver, Co. Louth. The COI record advises Dromiskin & Manfieldtown, Co. Louth. So to make it even more confusing, there is a baptismal record for a Henry Shiels, born 19 June 1814, parents Brabazon Disney Shiels and Rose Rooney?? My last ? came after I found a birth record for Brabazon Disney Shiels, father William Shiels, born in 1790, so in 1850 he would have been 60 years old.
I have no experience on how to sort out and I am way out of my elements in records this far back. Any help will greatly be appreciated!!.
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see page 316
https://archive.org/details/historyofkilsar00lesl/page/316
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Thank you so much. I don't understand some of the short forms of words. I still have lots to find out but from what you have provided my 5x GG was William Shiels. He had 2 sons, Henry and Brabazon(my 4x GG). They were both have Esq after their names? Still not sure where to look next but this is amazing. Thank you again for this information.
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The RC marriage left hand page
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632548#page/104/mode/1up
The WW stands for witnesses, in this case two priests, which looks like the couple didn't bring any friends with them to be witnesses.
Where did you find the COI record for the marriage, was it the same day?
I see the COI marriage has a civil cert, have you got this.
BTW I think that RC parish record is a transcript of the original, probably done quite a while ago before the registers were filmed in the 1950s, although there is nothing written on the book it just looks to neat and clean.
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Will Calendars http://www.rootschat.com/links/01oay/
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shiels site:jbhall.clahs.ie/ http://www.rootschat.com/links/01oaz/
only a few snippets about them....
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Hi Sinann,
You have helped me in the past so thanks now for again helping me. I found the marriage entry same date and names in the "Registers of Dromiskin Parish Church & Manfieldtown Parish Church. On page 9. This is a Anglican Project, Diocese of Armagh, Co. Louth, which came up on-line. The entries are typed out but I was surprised to see the same info there as in the RC Church records. I saw the actual church entry for the RC record which appears to be the original book as it is very old, hand written and you can definitely make out the names and date.
I can't access the civil certificate here in Canada. Can you advise the information on the certificate? Fathers of the groom and bride etc?
My 4x GG is from Newtown Darver, Co. Louth. Still don't understand what religion they were so any help or advice from this side of the world is greatly appreciated.
Thank you so much Siann.
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Thank you Hallmark!!!
Your snippets allowed me to discover that Shiels, Brabazon D. Esq. of Newtowndarver-Dundalk on 22/02/1811-Louth 50 Pounds= Freeholders Louth. Have no idea what that means and he also was appointed to Lieutenant of the 5th Regiment of Co. Louth on 14 April 1806.
From Canada so I need a history lesson to understand all this but for now I know that he is my 4x GG and can confirm where he lived in Ireland. Thank you once again for all your help.
Cheers from Canada!!
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The image of the marriage cert isn't online yet, could be a few years before it is, you could buy a photocopy for €4 https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/i-want-to-get-a-copy-of-a-certificate-what-do-i-do
apart from occupations and residence it won't tell you any more than already know.
It looks like he was COI and she was RC and they married in both churches to keep each other/family happy.
It happens.
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Only result I could get for Brabazon Disney Shiels in the newspapers was when he acted as foreman of the jury in inquest of James Anderson who had been murdered. Freemans Journal June 11 1838.
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This Search on https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
will get you the Cert once the Image has been added in an update "some time in the future".
The Irish Government BDM website
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
has 3 stages to it as per attachment
those with Returns Page No don't have Images yet but one can check back every now and then to see if any have been updated even once every 6 months!
The Captcha and Sign in page are all part of process the Irish Government BDM website and do not take anyone to any other website!
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Thank you Hallmark!!!
Your snippets allowed me to discover that Shiels, Brabazon D. Esq. of Newtowndarver-Dundalk on 22/02/1811-Louth 50 Pounds= Freeholders Louth. Have no idea what that means and he also was appointed to Lieutenant of the 5th Regiment of Co. Louth on 14 April 1806.
From Canada so I need a history lesson to understand all this but for now I know that he is my 4x GG and can confirm where he lived in Ireland. Thank you once again for all your help.
Cheers from Canada!!
I wouldn't concern myself with it too much.... 50 Pounds Freeholder "he had money"! Connections! ;D
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There are two entries for Brabazon Desney Sheils in the Tithe Applotment Books
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004587428/004587428_00285.pdf
both on the same page Newtown and Christianstown
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/index.jsp
I would guess B Shiels in Newtowndaver in the Field Books 1837 is also him
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/vob/IRE_CENSUS_1821-51_007250659_00510.pdf
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/vob/index.jsp
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Brabazon Disney Shiels, married Rose Rooney on 11 March 1850, did they stay in area?
IF they did you might gets births from 1864 on..... or Marriages for any children in 1870's/80's etc or Deaths from 1864
C Reg Birth, Marriage and Death results for Sheils of Ardee http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ob0/
you still need to complete Stages 2 and 3 of the website!
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/what-civil-records-are-on-line explains years covered.
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There are two entries for Brabazon Desney Sheils in the Tithe Applotment Books
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004587428/004587428_00285.pdf
both on the same page Newtown and Christianstown
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/index.jsp
I would guess B Shiels in Newtowndaver in the Field Books 1837 is also him
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/vob/IRE_CENSUS_1821-51_007250659_00510.pdf
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/vob/index.jsp
I reckon so.....on the hall website they are getting money for roads and there is mention of Sheil's Forge
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There must be two BD Shiels
A Martha Emily Shiels married in 1858 her father was Brabazon Disney Shiels
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-298-3-7-099
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Thanks so much Sinann and Hallmark!!!
You both are wonderful and really appreciate all your help.
Cheers👍🇨🇦
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Could he have married twice??
Martha Emily Shiels from 1st Marriage?
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The General Armory of England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales By Sir Bernard Burke C B LL D
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG67-9VY
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG67-9VY
Nice one
I looked on FamilySearch yesterday and couldn't find it ???
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It looks like he was COI and she was RC and they married in both churches to keep each other/family happy.
It happens.
I also assume that he was CoI and she was RC.
The wedding ceremony in the Catholic church would have been to keep her and her family happy. (Although it looks like none of her family or friends turned up.) It was a religious ceremony with no legal standing if one party was CoI. What was written in the Catholic register was sufficient to show that it was a valid marriage according to the canon law of the Catholic Church. The legal marriage was the ceremony in the Church of Ireland.
Marriage laws in Ireland at the time were not straightforward. Civil registration of non-Catholic marriages began in 1845. Civil registration of Catholic marriages didn't begin until 1864. A marriage between 2 Catholics in a Catholic church was accepted as legal. A marriage ceremony in a Catholic church between a Catholic and a member of the Church of Ireland was not recognised as a legal marriage. If Brabazon and Rose were married only in the Catholic church: 1.) their children would not have been legitimate, leading to inheritance problems; 2.) Brabazon could have abandoned Rose and married again without committing bigamy.
Marriage laws in Ireland were different from laws in England, Scotland and Wales. There was a Royal Commission on marriage in 1868 to investigate anomalies.
The stance of the Catholic Church on marriage law and mixed marriages was also a "grey area" in Ireland.
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Sorry I didn't see this continued help until today. I too had thought there might have been 2 Brabazon Disney Shiles or Sheils but to also have the same woman Rose Rooney makes me wonder if that would be possible.
I found a Catholic baptism record for a Henry Shiels born Darver, Co. Louth, parents Brabazon Disney Shiels and Rose Rooney. Then their marriage record in both the Catholic and COI records married 11 March 1850?On the marriage information both Brabazon and Rose are 60 years of age at the time of marriage? A newspaper story in the Belfast papers announces the marriage of "Brabazon Disney Shiels's" youngest daughter, Martha Emily Shiels for 19 July 1858.
I found that in 1806 Apri 14 Brabazon DisneyShiels was appointed to Lieutenant of the 5th Regiment of Co. Louth, in 1814 he was appointed "applotters" in the Parish of Darver and was a seat holder in the Parish Church of Newtown Darver, seat 15. A William Shiels made a will in 1801 a resident of Newtown Darver and Brabazon was also a church warden from 1825-1826.
The last info I found in a book the History of Kilsaran Union and Manfieldstown Union of Parishes in Co. Louth was a cemetery marker that listed Shiels people but another separate entry said that Henry Shiels son of William Shiels had died 28 Januay 1829 in his 29th year and the stone was erected by Brabazon Disney Shiels Esq. to the lamented memory of the best and most beloved of brothers.
Manfieldstown Churchyard.
I am totally at a loss on how to sort this out but I believe Brabazon was 100% COI so I need to find a way to check COI birth records for children either around the early 1800's like the Henry Shiels entry or after 1850 when they married but at age 60, can't see them having children then.
Once again thanks for the information and help.
Cheers,
Frustrated Canadian!!!
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Doesn't look good for Darver COI
https://www.johngrenham.com/records/church.php?civilparishid=1683&civilparish=Darver&search_type=full
COI parish appears to be called Derver, records lost in 1922 fire
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf
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A newspaper story in the Belfast papers announces the marriage of "Brabazon Disney Shiels's" youngest daughter, Martha Emily Shiels for 19 July 1858.
Once again thanks for the information and help.
Cheers,
Frustrated Canadian!!!
So nothing for his older daughters?
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Doesn't look good for Darver COI
https://www.johngrenham.com/records/church.php?civilparishid=1683&civilparish=Darver&search_type=full
COI parish appears to be called Derver, records lost in 1922 fire
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/cmsfiles/pdf/AboutUs/library/registers/ParishRegisters/PARISHREGISTERS.pdf
From Link already posted by Daíthi....
https://archive.org/details/historyofkilsara00lesl/page/252
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,
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I found a Catholic baptism record for a Henry Shiels born Darver, Co. Louth, parents Brabazon Disney Shiels and Rose Rooney. Then their marriage record in both the Catholic and COI records married 11 March 1850?On the marriage information both Brabazon and Rose are 60 years of age at the time of marriage?
I am totally at a loss on how to sort this out but I believe Brabazon was 100% COI so I need to find a way to check COI birth records for children either around the early 1800's like the Henry Shiels entry or after 1850 when they married but at age 60, can't see them having children then.
When and where. i.e. which parish was the baptism of Henry?
There were no birth records in early 1800s; I assume you meant baptism registers.
A possibility is that they had a child/children long before their marriage.
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??
they married 1850 Brabazon and Rose are 60 years of age at the time of marriage!!
Martha Emily Shiels married in 1858 her father was Brabazon Disney Shiels
quite possibly a second marriage for both Brabazon and Rose
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Henry Shiels or Sheils I found in the Catholic on line records for the Parish of Darver. I started to look a few years on each side of 1814 for more children, but the hand writing is so cramped and how to read but I will keep trying.
In britishnewspaperarchives I found another story mentioning Brabazon Disney Sheils which is interesting but I don't understand. It says that
"Decrees In Chancery. "James Hodson Bond (plaintiff), Brabazon Disney Sheils, William Farran and Rebecca Sheils Eccleston as defendants. An order was made 20 January 1845 and 7 November 1846 where lands were to be sold to the highest and fairest bidder all the lands of Newtowndarer, Co. Louth by a Willam Henn. This is interesting because James Hodson bond married Elizabeth Anne Sheils in Dublin in the Church of Ireland in 1838.St. Marks. Elizabeth Sheils is my connection. Then a Rosa Sheils marries a Richard Talbot 22 January 1850 in Dundalk, Co. Louth but not sure if Brabazon was her Father.
If the COI records for Darver have been lost because of the 1922 fire, I am out of luck. I can feel certain though that Brabazon Disney Sheils father was William Sheils and he had a brother Henry who died in 1829 at 29 years of age which is mentioned in the Book mentioned above which I saw on line as well.
I am wondering if like was mentioned Brabazon married this Rebecca Sheils Eccleston that was named in the newspaper article about some dispute over land and wonder what that was about since it involved Brabazon's son-in-law?
Once again sincerest thanks for all this amazing effort!!!!
You people are amazing.
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Might be worth investigating who Widow Catherine Newingingham otherwise Tighe of Weston Super Mare was and how she was related to Brab Disney Sheils...if she made a Will, who her husbands was, date Death, Age etc....
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Prerogative Wills
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01obd/
the second William appears to be 1842 by searching other names on same page
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It looks like she is the Landlady... Brab got Henry's part, with George and Brab being named 'as lives' on earlier Deed, George is now Deceased, and Brab now has his 3rd son Wm named as 'a life'
Simple! ;D ;D
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Catherine Newenham ?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGPM-6H7
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I am wondering if like was mentioned Brabazon married this Rebecca Sheils Eccleston that was named in the newspaper article about some dispute over land and wonder what that was about since it involved Brabazon's son-in-law?
Once again sincerest thanks for all this amazing effort!!!!
You people are amazing.
Henry Sheils married Rose Eccleston...
Nice Dowry!
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This says 1807 William W H Newenham and Catherine Tighe married 25th July 1807 St Andrew C O I Dublin but also says certificate dated 1830
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=japmd12-andrew-02
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Newenham were the Landlords.
Now sure if any Shiels married into Newenham or Tighe.
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Not sure if any Shiels married into Newenham or Tighe.
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Robert Stearne Tighe father of Catherine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stearne_Tighe
Catherine appears to have died 1858
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014894/005014894_00302.pdf
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In britishnewspaperarchives I found another story mentioning Brabazon Disney Sheils which is interesting but I don't understand. It says that
"Decrees In Chancery. "James Hodson Bond (plaintiff), Brabazon Disney Sheils, William Farran and Rebecca Sheils Eccleston as defendants.
I am wondering if like was mentioned Brabazon married this Rebecca Sheils Eccleston that was named in the newspaper article about some dispute over land and wonder what that was about since it involved Brabazon's son-in-law?
Once again sincerest thanks for all this amazing effort!!!!
You people are amazing.
In Wm Eccleston's Will of 1806 George Shields of Drumshallon, Co. Louth had to change his name to Eccleston.............grrrrrrrrrr!! ;D
Copy of grant of Arms being Eccleston quartering Shields to George Shields of Drumshallon, Co. Louth, on his assuming by Royal Licence the name and arms of Eccleston in conformity with the will of William Eccleston, March 13, 1806.
Dublin: National Library of Ireland, Genealogical Office: Ms.105, p.37
the snippet from Burke posted has him as Sheils!
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Henry Shiels or Sheils I found in the Catholic on line records for the Parish of Darver. I started to look a few years on each side of 1814 for more children, but the hand writing is so cramped and how to read but I will keep trying.
Baptism 19th ? June Henry Sheils of Brabason & Rose Rooney; Sponsors Patt Dislly ? & Mary Butler; Darver.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632544#page/104/mode/1up
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All this new information is so amazing but over my head in understanding. I'm trying so hard to make sense of it all. I am correct in saying that William Newenham married a Catherine Tighe 25 July 1807 COI in Dublin. At some time Catherine Newenham is the landlady owning a lot of land in Co. Louth where a portion of this land she owned was "leased to Brab D. Sheils and other men mentioned in the document?
Then Henry Sheils (Brab's brother marries a Rose Eccleston but has to change his last name to Eccleston to get a large dowry from Rose's Father which was money and land to ensure his daughter had a good life?
I don't understand these land agreements, dowry etc.
Getting back to Brab and Rose Rooney who he supposedly married at 60 years of age in 1850, I guess they had their children before marrying but I would think back in those times that would be a major moral scandal and if he had money, land etc. he wouldn't want a reputation especially if the church found out? Just my assumption but I'm no authority of this.
So exciting but so frustrating trying to get all these people in order, who did what and when. Thank you everyone once again for this information. Maybe some of my poor Irish ancestors weren't all so poor and lead a hard cruel life, but maybe some had some comfort!!!
Cheers. You are all the best and I so appreciate your efforts in helping me!!!
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Once you read these everything will be as clear as mud! ;D
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSHS-195P-7?i=161&cat=185720
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJM-59WW-P?i=58&cat=185720
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Henry Sheils married Rose Eccleston...
Sheils had a Family Crest. I reckon George, as posted.
Eccleston had a Family Crest
so on one quarter of the crest the Eccleston crest had to be put onto the Sheils Crest.
If it were me..... I'd email National Library of Ireland quoting
Dublin: National Library of Ireland, Genealogical Office: Ms.105, p.37
...and ask for advice on how to proceed from there and asking the cost of getting that page BUT via 2 emails.
One to
info'at'nli.ie for advice
One to
jharte'at'nli.ie for cost
All very helpful people.
Keep emails simple and to the point!!
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The problem with Sheils Eccleston is......
What are things registered under in Indices? Sheils? Eccleston?
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Wonder what £557 would be worth today!
£44,193.97
Inflation averaged 2.1% a year from Bank of England website.
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-T9XW-D?i=366&cat=185720
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Somewhere, somehow your lot seem to drinking buddies with this lot by all appearences!
"JANE DISNEY’S SISTERS
James and Mary Brabazon were survived by three sons and four daughters.
Born in 1682, their eldest son James was Rector of Castlecarberry and died unmarried.
Their second son Henry was born in December 1686 but we know no more.
Their third son Anthony Brabazon (16 Dec 1698 - 6 July 1771) was married on 24 Nov 1732 to Mary, daughter of ____ Donogh and left eleven children.[iv]
Jane’s younger sister Rose married Sir Henry O Neill, Bart.
Her next sister Arabella married Brabazon Eccleston of Drumshallon, Co Louth....."
"...John and Jane Disney had issue a daughter Catherine (m to William Eccleston Esq) and six sons viz Thomas (1698-1728, born in Stabannon); Brabazon; James of Galway; Theobald, in holy orders; William and George....."
http://www.turtlebunbury.com/history/history_family/hist_family_brabazon_disney.htm
Might be worth contacting Turtle Bunbury ??
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I can't thank you enough Hallmark for going way and beyond in this information. I am going to take your advice on contacting National Library of Ireland and see how that goes.
So interesting and I've never gotten this far back for Irish ancestors before. Would never have discovered what I did if it hadn't been for you and the others.
Will say it over and over but my most sincerest of thanks.
Cheers and have a great day!!
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I found a Catholic baptism record for a Henry Shiels born Darver, Co. Louth, parents Brabazon Disney Shiels and Rose Rooney. Then their marriage record in both the Catholic and COI records married 11 March 1850?On the marriage information both Brabazon and Rose are 60 years of age at the time of marriage?
I am totally at a loss on how to sort this out but I believe Brabazon was 100% COI so I need to find a way to check COI birth records for children either around the early 1800's like the Henry Shiels entry or after 1850 when they married but at age 60, can't see them having children then.
Once again thanks for the information and help.
Cheers,
Frustrated Canadian!!!
You don't have.... Marriage of BRABAZON DISNEY SHEILS in 1850
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Ardee Returns Year 1850
Returns Quarter 1 Returns Volume No 1
Returns Page No 202
What information are you looking at that says they are 60??
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I can't thank you enough Hallmark for going way and beyond in this information. I am going to take your advice on contacting National Library of Ireland and see how that goes.
So interesting and I've never gotten this far back for Irish ancestors before. Would never have discovered what I did if it hadn't been for you and the others.
Will say it over and over but my most sincerest of thanks.
Cheers and have a great day!!
I'm just being nosey! ;D ;D
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When did Brabazon Disney Shiels and Rose, his wife die?
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This is what I meant by trying to follow them...
"Dowry" George Sheil's Death
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http://www.termonfeckinhistory.ie/the_brabazons_of_rath_36.html
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Oh my gosh Hallmark, these ancestors are giving me a headache!!!!! This is what I started with, short and sweet like you requested.
1.Elizabeth Anne Sheils- my 3xGG
married 1838-James Hodson Bond
Parents listed: Brabazon Disney Sheils-4xGG and Rose Rooney
Source: irishgenealogy.ie (church records) COI
2. Martha Emily Sheils-sister
married 19 July 1858-John William Miller-bookeeper
Parents listed: above
Source: irishgenealogy.ie (church records) COI
Also: newspaper announcing marriage for above "youngest daughter of the late Brabazon Disney Sheils of Newtown Darver Co. Louth By 1858 my 4x GG is deceased?
3. Rosa Sheils-sister
married 22 January 1850- Richard Talboth- Dundalk, Co. Louth COI
Fathers: Brabazon Disney Sheils and Richard Talbot Sr.
Source: Select Irish marriages on-line, ancestry.
On Familysearch.org there is the marriage of Brabazon and Rose 11 March 1850 and it gives both the year of the birth as 1790?? which I thought strange.
The book "History of Kilsaran " viewed on-line from a link provided by the first person that helped me is was where I found some info on Brabazon Disney Sheils. After that all the info on deeds, Ecclestons William, Henry, George etc. etc. jumping back to the 1700's just made my brain go to mush trying to understand the wording, writing of those documents, and who is who and how they fit into my 4x GG Brabazon's family. I need a drink!!!!! This is too far advanced for me so I will email the National Library of Ireland per you suggestion and go from there.
Thank you Hallmark. You are my new best friend in this site!!!!! Cheers.
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This is what I meant by trying to follow them...
"Dowry" George Sheil's Death
GRRR.... found under ECCLESTON who were Sheils, with Wiils of Wm and Henry mentioned!
George's widow ECCLESTON to SHEILS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJW-P98C-G?i=441&cat=185720
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She is down in Co Tipperary too with Tidalls... It's a long way to go! ;D
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ4-Q9X1-F?i=370&cat=185720
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Oh my gosh Hallmark, these ancestors are giving me a headache!!!!! This is what I started with, short and sweet like you requested.
1.Elizabeth Anne Sheils- my 3xGG
married 1838-James Hodson Bond
Parents listed: Brabazon Disney Sheils-4xGG and Rose Rooney
Source: irishgenealogy.ie (church records) COI
2. Martha Emily Sheils-sister
married 19 July 1858-John William Miller-bookeeper
Parents listed: above
Source: irishgenealogy.ie (church records) COI
Also: newspaper announcing marriage for above "youngest daughter of the late Brabazon Disney Sheils of Newtown Darver Co. Louth By 1858 my 4x GG is deceased?
3. Rosa Sheils-sister
married 22 January 1850- Richard Talboth- Dundalk, Co. Louth COI
Fathers: Brabazon Disney Sheils and Richard Talbot Sr.
Source: Select Irish marriages on-line, ancestry.
On Familysearch.org there is the marriage of Brabazon and Rose 11 March 1850 and it gives both the year of the birth as 1790?? which I thought strange.
The book "History of Kilsaran " viewed on-line from a link provided by the first person that helped me is was where I found some info on Brabazon Disney Sheils. After that all the info on deeds, Ecclestons William, Henry, George etc. etc. jumping back to the 1700's just made my brain go to mush trying to understand the wording, writing of those documents, and who is who and how they fit into my 4x GG Brabazon's family. I need a drink!!!!! This is too far advanced for me so I will email the National Library of Ireland per you suggestion and go from there.
Thank you Hallmark. You are my new best friend in this site!!!!! Cheers.
;D ;D
That clears up what I was wondering!
He is George's son. The Deeds are only to get names/relationships!!
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My reading of this is that George's Lineage was investigated and it was confirmed that he was entitled to use the Crest, so you should get back 2 or 3 generations on Sheils. maybe more!
So..instead of driving you to drink I'll wait too until you hear from NLI.... 8)
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This is extremely interesting to me as I have been tracing my paternal line (Little) who were resident around mid-Louth and were neighbours at one point of B.D.Sheils.
Indeed my 4th great grandfather William Little and B.D.Shiels (and a Rooney, if I recall) were listed as having performed road maintenance in the area on the Louth Assize records which are on the Louth County Council website archives section.
I just saw the record mentioning that Sheils was associated with Drumshallon which is quite some kilometres south of NewtownDarver and Mansfieldstown where Littles and Sheils appeared to have been around the early 1800s. I am tracing an earlier Little who appears on title deed transfers as a mere witness and a transcription of a now completely faded headstone near Drumshallon. I am beginning to wonder if my Little ancestors came through those locations in Mid Louth due to an association with the Sheils.
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an interesting and colourful historical document relating to Brabazon Eccleston , late Sheriff of County Louth :
https://www.whytes.ie/art/1747-louth-warrant-for-the-arrest-of-brabazon-eccleston-late-sheriff-of-county-louth/150345/?SearchString=&LotNumSearch=&GuidePrice=&OrderBy=&ArtistID=&ArrangeBy=list&NumPerPage=15&offset=10
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Yes, interesting lot
Pedigree of Brabazon of Eastwell in Co. Leicestershire, Barons of Ardee, Earls of Meath, of Ballinasloe, and New Park, Co. Mayo, c.1066 -- 1829. has been done.
The Pedigree of Ecclestons has been done and is at Trinity College.
The Pedigree of the Disneys has been done.
Disneys of Stabannon, a review of an Anglo-Irish family from the time of Cromwell One folded family tree in pocket attached to inside back cover of book ISBN: 0952590808
Copy of confirmation of arms to the descendants of the Rev. Brabazon Disney, D. D., Rector of Kilmore, Diocese of Armagh and to his grandson, the Very Rev. Brabazon William Disney, Dean of Armagh, son of Rev. Brabazon Disney, Rector of Slane in Co. Meath, May 25, 1861.
Dublin: National Library of Ireland, Genealogical Office: Ms.108, pp.370-1
Detailed abstracts of the wills of Jenny, later Brabazon, 1741 -- 1790. has been done.
The problem is the Sheils that Suemagoo is asking about.
The earlier Sheils are severly limited as their earlier Church records are severly lacking in detail...as is the one to Rose Rooney.
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IpLittle my 4x GG in everything I have found is named as Brabazon Disney Sheils. Sheils is the surname per his marriage record, daughters marriage record etc. I see people with the surname of Brabazon or Disney but my ancestor is First name Brabazon, middle name Disney , last name Sheils. He married Rose Rooney in 1850, Manfieldstown, Louth.
Hallmark provided documents I don’t fully understand per the handwriting and wording so I have emailed National Library of Ireland for help.
At some point Sheils name gets changed to Eccleston so trying to sort this out but very difficult.
As soon as I hear from NLI will advise. Fingers crossed.
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Sue... I only posted the other names to show where your "unusual" names came from!
As for the other Documents you don't need to understand them for now....just look for people named on them, some of which I underlined for you in the Images posted.
I posted one where they were leasing land from someone.
I also posted one where they were leasing land to someone
..just to give you an idea of their lifestyle!
They were far from poor tenant farmers!!
All you need from NLI is their help/advice on how to proceed with the snippet about George!
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Hallmark Got your message and agree with you😉😉 This ancestor has land, and money and the other side so poor they only have a wee cottage in Monaghan, no land, nothing at all.
Hope Brabazon was kind to his family and neighbours☘️
Thanks again for everything you found for me and your patience in explaining things to me.
Cheers👍🇨🇦
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Update on my searching. NLI is providing me with a copy of the Grant of Arms involving Eccleston and Sheils. Have received a copy of the 1801 will for William Sheils, which gave me more siblings for Brabazon Disney Sheils.
What I need to know is the snippets of information that Familysearch has copied, did those original documents come from the National Library of Ireland or the National Archives of Ireland. I am going to Ireland in the summer but don't know how much time to reserve in Dublin to do my research, so where these original documents are held is important to me.
Any suggestions or advice is greatly appreciated. I also need to find a Irish history person who can help me as I don't understand all what I am finding.
Thanks again everyone
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You don't have.... Marriage of BRABAZON DISNEY SHEILS in 1850
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Ardee Returns Year 1850
Returns Quarter 1 Returns Volume No 1
Returns Page No 202
What information are you looking at that says they are 60??
The marriage registration. It says they were both sixty.
I wonder if they had a secret, irregular marriage somewhere when they were young. Their son Henry had Sheils as surname in the baptism register so the priest who baptised him would have assumed parents were married.
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Update on my searching. NLI is providing me with a copy of the Grant of Arms involving Eccleston and Sheils. Have received a copy of the 1801 will for William Sheils, which gave me more siblings for Brabazon Disney Sheils.
What I need to know is the snippets of information that Familysearch has copied, did those original documents come from the National Library of Ireland or the National Archives of Ireland. I am going to Ireland in the summer but don't know how much time to reserve in Dublin to do my research, so where these original documents are held is important to me.
Any suggestions or advice is greatly appreciated. I also need to find a Irish history person who can help me as I don't understand all what I am finding.
Thanks again everyone
They are at
Registry of Deeds
Henrietta Street
Dublin 1
But there are 1000's of Books
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/aai-files/assets/722landreg_large.jpg
Early Marriages INDEX
https://www.irishancestors.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/research-room.jpg
https://www.irishancestors.ie/search/marriage/index.php
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/185720?availability=Family%20History%20Library
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Brab C was George's son...
George requested the use of Family Crest as a direct descendant, so had to lodge paperwork of lineage which confirmed he was entitled to use it.
So, he is the son of...., who was the son of..... etc. etc
NLI is providing you with a copy of the Grant of Arms involving Eccleston and Sheils.... wait and see how far it goes back on Shiels!
Then chase George if needed.
You have Tabular pedigree of the descendants of Sir Edward Brabazon, baron of Ardee, 1549-1891; 19th c. Collection: MacIomhair Papers Dublin: National Library of Ireland, Ms. 24,017
Pedigree of Brabazon of Eastwell in Co. Leicestershire, Barons of Ardee, Earls of Meath, of Ballinasloe, and New Park, Co. Mayo, c.1066 -- 1829. Dublin: National Library of Ireland, Genealogical Office: Ms.168, pp.396-405
Copy of confirmation of arms to the descendants of the Rev. Brabazon Disney, D. D., Rector of Kilmore, Diocese of Armagh and to his grandson, the Very Rev. Brabazon William Disney, Dean of Armagh, son of Rev. Brabazon Disney, Rector of Slane in Co. Meath, May 25, 1861.
Dublin: National Library of Ireland, Genealogical Office: Ms.108, pp.370-1
The Pedigree of Ecclestons has been done and is at Trinity College. all entwined with each other!
See if Sheils are mentioned in any of them??
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Maiden Stone and Hallmark THANK YOU. First it was suggested to me that if the marriage bonds were read out in the C of I Mansfieldtown Parish, then the RC priests having seen the bonds, could have just entered the marriage info in their records, although not an official RC marriage? Again I am from Canada so this I have no authority or knowledge on this topic. Not sure when children were born, since the marriage info is where the parents are 60 years of age.
I finally found the connection between Sheils with Disney and Brabazon's. Brabazon Disney Sheils, his Grandmother was Catherine Disney. Her parents John Disney and Jane Brabazon. Catherine married William Eccleston so that's where the Eccleston's come in along with the Disneys and Brabazon's. Have found lots of information on the Disneys and Brabazon's, however the Eccleston's is giving me trouble.
Waiting for my documents from NAI and will continue. So challenging but very exciting. Couldn't have got this far without all the help and especially want to thank Hallmark as those documents you provided have been so valuable to my research and it is very much appreciated!!!
Thanks again and cheers.
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I finally found the connection between Sheils with Disney and Brabazon's. Brabazon Disney Sheils, his Grandmother was Catherine Disney. Her parents John Disney and Jane Brabazon. Catherine married William Eccleston so that's where the Eccleston's come in along with the Disneys and Brabazon's. Have found lots of information on the Disneys and Brabazon's, however the Eccleston's is giving me trouble.
Waiting for my documents from NAI and will continue. So challenging but very exciting. Couldn't have got this far without all the help and especially want to thank Hallmark as those documents you provided have been so valuable to my research and it is very much appreciated!!!
Thanks again and cheers.
Yes..."...John and Jane Disney had issue a daughter Catherine (m to William Eccleston Esq) and six sons viz Thomas (1698-1728, born in Stabannon); Brabazon; James of Galway; Theobald, in holy orders; William and George....."
Eccleston Pedigree is in Trinity College!
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Pedigree of Eccleston Trinity College.
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;D
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Well connected....
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Maiden Stone and Hallmark THANK YOU. First it was suggested to me that if the marriage bonds were read out in the C of I Mansfieldtown Parish, then the RC priests having seen the bonds, could have just entered the marriage info in their records, although not an official RC marriage? Again I am from Canada so this I have no authority or knowledge on this topic. Not sure when children were born, since the marriage info is where the parents are 60 years of age.
Catholic marriage law required banns to be read aloud at 3 Sunday Masses. If a couple wanted to marry without the required number of banns, usually because they needed to marry in a hurry, then they had to ask for a dispensation from banns. It would have been noted in the marriage register "Disp." and the priest would have charged an admin. fee. R.C. and CoI had different rules about who was allowed to marry whom; e.g. Catholics weren't supposed to marry their 1st cousins (except with a dispensation from the Vatican) but members of an Anglican church could; Catholic godchildren and godparents couldn't marry each other.
The wedding in the Catholic church on this occasion was a religious ceremony and had no legal standing because one spouse was a member of the Church of Ireland. The legal ceremony was the marriage in the Church of Ireland on the same day. Without the CoI ceremony, Rose would have had no legal rights as a wife.
There was a famous court case about a Catholic woman from England who married an aristocratic Irish Protestant in a Catholic church in Ireland. They met abroad during the Crimean war (1850s). They had a "handfasting" ceremony in Scotland (a kind of common-law marriage) before they went to Ireland. Some time after the marriage, the husband rejected his wife and became engaged to an heiress. That was how the wife discovered that she wasn't married according to Irish law. She pursued the man she believed was her husband through courts of 3 countries. Her situation wasn't unique but few abandoned wives were able to take legal action as she had.
A marriage in a Church of Ireland was recognised as canonically valid by the Catholic church at this time. A Catholic couple in England marrying in a Church of England was also accepted by R.C. clergy as this was a legal ceremony. A marriage in a Catholic church in England wasn't legally valid unless a registrar was present. It wasn't until 1909 that Catholic canon law required a Catholic to marry in the presence of a Catholic priest.
A Catholic priest who conducted a marriage between a Catholic and a member of the Established Church (Church of Ireland in Ireland and Church of England in England) was breaking the law during the period when the penal laws against Catholics were in force. Penal laws were gradually eased in both countries between late 18th and early 19th centuries. A Catholic priest was arrested in Ireland around 1830 because he had conducted a marriage in which one spouse was R.C. and one CoI. Some priests refused to conduct a mixed marriage as late as 1860 in case they were accused of flouting the law. (See evidence to Royal Commission on marriage reform). It's possible that the 2 priests who witnessed the wedding of Brabazon Shiels were reluctant to have their names recorded.
After civil registrations of births, marriages and deaths was introduced in England in 1837 most Catholic priests didn't hand in their completed registers to civil authorities, one reason being that the registers contained "illegal" marriages. It's possible that Brabazon and Rose had a secret, illegal wedding in a Catholic church decades before their 2 weddings in 1850. In that case their child would have been regarded by the priest as legitimate at his baptism in 1814.
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Maiden Stone, thank you for the detailed explanation regarding mixed marriages between C of I and Catholic faiths. If Brabazon and Rose did have a secret Catholic marriage would it have been recorded in the parish books by the Priest, or being it was secret would the Priest have not recorded the information. I know of one son Henry Shiels who was born around 1814 which I saw in the Catholic Church records on-line and checked other years from 1815 and up to 1820’s for other children but couldn’t find anything. I’m wondering if Henry’s birth would also be recorded in the C of I records and maybe other children born after 1814. Anyway I keep searching, learning and some days get so frustrated however love the experience. You have been so kind and really appreciate what you have taught me. Thank you again👍😃🇨🇦
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If Brabazon and Rose did have a secret Catholic marriage would it have been recorded in the parish books by the Priest, or being it was secret would the Priest have not recorded the information.
I’m wondering if Henry’s birth would also be recorded in the C of I records and maybe other children born after 1814.
Marriage register: Possibly and possibly not. Darver marriage registers on NLI website begin 1837. Earlier registers at Louth County Library, transcribed on Roots Ireland (£) and on Ancestry (£). Catholic priests weren't the best record-keepers.
Some nearby parishes also have early registers. See map on Darver page on NLI site and click on each to find out what exists.
CoI baptism register: I don't know. It's possible. Some Irish mixed-faith couples had some children baptised in R.C. church and some in CoI.
I'm used to duplicate marriage ceremonies. Some of my Catholic relatives in England had 2 ceremonies pre-1837. They usually had the Catholic wedding the day before C of E. although one couple waited 6 weeks before turning up at C. of E. for the legal wedding.
There were various restrictions and penalties on Catholics such as not being able to inherit land, paying extra tax, not owning firearms or a quality horse, or entering some professions or becoming a Member of Parliament. These were gradually abolished over about 60 years from late 18th century.