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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: Mart 'n' Al on Sunday 15 September 19 11:21 BST (UK)
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7464527/Experts-warn-new-trans-friendly-guidelines-wreck-crucial-plans-Britains-future.html
What will they think in 100 years?
Martin
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7464527/Experts-warn-new-trans-friendly-guidelines-wreck-crucial-plans-Britains-future.html
What will they think in 100 tears?
Martin
Would I be allowed to respond thus?
What is your sex? At my age, only a dim and distant memory.
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On a similar note, filling out a form from an Australian government department, instead of the question "married, de facto, or single" there were two choices, single or partnered.
Really? I think the world was better when PC meant a computer, and we still had the ability to laugh at ourselves.
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Martin maybe in 100years there will only be one sex - human person ;D ;D ;D
Philip - Love your answer ??? ??? ???
Dorrie
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What is your ethnicity annoys me more quite frankly when you can't tick more than one option. It is like people asking you to saw yourself in half.
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Yes, that is another annoying question.
Tempted to answer not sure still researching my family history ;D ;D
Dorrie
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Census may not last much longer. 2021 may be the last. It's expensive to collect. Govt. has many other sources. A great pity nevertheless.
As to gender/sex. There are only two sexes, male and female. It's immutable. There is no such thing as sex change. However, some males and a lesser number of females identify with the opposite sex/gender, always have done. So, where's the harm except for small minded bigots.
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There must be many half-caste people who don't know their father, and consequently don't know 50% of their ethnicity, and can't accurately answer the question.
I can quite believe for the next census there will be one page dedicated to ethnicity and gender preferences and the other page will be the normal census information.
Follow this link, and search for the word 'Cree' and read from there:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit
I actually think people have become so ornery and difficult in recent years, that there will be so many people being difficult when they are asked to answer the census questions, that it will either be meaningless or abandoned.
There just seems to be no respect for authority these days.
Martin
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What do you mean by authority? There's always been immigrants in Britain. Saxons, Danes, Norwegians (Vikings), even blacks,army and navy, although they were not identified as such in any records usually, and other people from the Mediterranean, and further east. Never any problem.
Too many for assimilation now perhaps.
Royal Bucks Militia 1790. To be seen in Buckingham, Aylesbury, Chesham, Beaconsfield, Slough etc.
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Regorian, hello, I think you misunderstood my comment, or I wasn't clear. I wasn't apportioning any sort of blame on the lack of respect for authority, and certainly not in any sort of ethnic direction.
I just think so many people in all walks of life, at least in Britain, if not across Europe have become so used to defying authority that it has become an almost everyday occurrence. I grew up respecting authority and being told what to do. Perhaps that makes me a sheep.
I was just saying that asking a simple question on a census form, about ethnicity or gender has become an absolute nest of vipers.
Martin
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I for one am certainly not bigoted in any way shape or form.
My initial comment was merely about the fact that the Australian government now refers to marital status as "partnered". A very annoying "gender neutral" term in my opinion.
As far as I am concerned, I am married.
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I understand Martin. If I had been alive during the Civil War, despite admiring Oliver Cromwell, I would have been a Royalist.
Similarly, Pinefamily I agree.
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I admire John Cooke more than Cromwell. While many others wanted summary execution of the king, Cooke insisted on a fair trial. Pity he didn't get the same
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Partnered sounds truly horrendous. Does that also apply to polygamous entities?
I prefer chatelaine, from the French word for a keeper of the castle, but my wife-like-substitute person objects to it.
Martin
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As to gender/sex. There are only two sexes, male and female. It's immutable. There is no such thing as sex change. However, some males and a lesser number of females identify with the opposite sex/gender, always have done. So, where's the harm except for small minded bigots.
It would be fine, it they didn't foist it on everyone, and just got on with their lives.
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I have Australian relatives, both from my paternal line and through my grandmother.
If you look up the New South Wales Mounted Police website, the only old photo is of my grandmothers half brother John, same father, different mother, she dying in childbirth 1866. Child, a daughter survived. John became Superintendant.
Also, a married daughter of my grandfathers older brother, Thomas Henry, a Met. policeman. Must be deceased by now. Photo is as a volunteer in Australian Olympics 2000.
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Typical Daily Mail article. Your sex isn't a matter of identity, it is how you physically present. Your gender is another matter.
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7464527/Experts-warn-new-trans-friendly-guidelines-wreck-crucial-plans-Britains-future.html
What a pathetic article from a dreadful excuse for a newspaper.
According to the ONS, 2% of the UK population identify as a minority gender. How on earth is this going to "run the risk of affecting vital data regarding the population the Government needs to plan for the future." Presumably there are roughly equal numbers of trans men and trans women anyway.
Of course, that isn't really why they published the article - it was just to stoke up indignation among their target audience and sell papers.
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As to gender/sex. There are only two sexes, male and female. It's immutable. There is no such thing as sex change. However, some males and a lesser number of females identify with the opposite sex/gender, always have done. So, where's the harm except for small minded bigots.
It would be fine, it they didn't foist it on everyone, and just got on with their lives.
Define "foist".
Like most other people, transgender people just want to get on with their lives - and do.
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I think 'foist' referred to the way minorities seem to not only (quite reasonably) seek acceptance, but also to almost try and convert the rest of the planet.
Cyclists, dog owners, vegans, Accrington Stanley fans, lesser-known religions, gluten intolerants, Twitterers, political obsessives et al, they all do it. I get so bored talking about my interests to novices that I keep them to myself. I wish others would, until people show an interest. A discreet badge will suffice. It shows you support a movement without ramming the concept down the throats of all. They actually alienate most people from their cause.
I will add that this comment is not directed at anyone in particular. I will, of course, keep my views to myself, beyond wearing a discreet badge!
Martin
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Would I be going out on a limb to ask if the Daily Mail is a Murdoch paper? ::)
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Mail
Martin
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As a Wikipedia editor, I can tell you that the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday are not considered reliable as sources and we never use them.
Regards
Chas
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As a Wikipedia editor, I can tell you that the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday are not considered reliable as sources and we never use them.
Regards
Chas
"Wikipedia Bans the Daily Mail as a Source Because It’s ‘Unreliable’. “The Daily Mail is generally unreliable” with a “reputation for poor fact checking, sensationalism and flat-out fabrication,” the statement read. The group determined that an edit filter should be put in place warning future users against linking to a Mail source."
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I've only just realised that I started this thread. I just want to say that I wasn't making any comment about the article on the link. I was just highlighting it for discussion.
Update, 23:32, here is the latest official news about the Census rehearsal taking place this autumn.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/census-rehearsal-taking-place-this-autumn
Martin
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Will they count EVERYONE who is England/Wales on Census day? And will Scotland and Northern Ireland be on the same day? If I got the urge to fly to England for Census Day from USA would I be in trouble? So would a resident from Albania or Zimbabwe in any of the above countries on that day be counted?
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I've known a few transexuals. They are no threat to marriage or anything else. They just identify as opposite sex and want to live as such. Who could discriminate against that, but plenty of people do.
Actually, the trans community is uneasy at the numbers of people declaring themselves transexual these days.
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See they are not sending the "Rehearsal" questionnaire north of the border or over the water to Northern Ireland.
I wonder why??????
Dorrie
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Probably just as well it is a tick the box question not fill in personally, especially given the number of people who put things like Jedi as their religion in the last one. The kinds of responses you'd get for that... jokers would have a field day.
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See they are not sending the "Rehearsal" questionnaire north of the border or over the water to Northern Ireland.
I wonder why??????
Probably because the devolved administrations in Scotland and Northern Ireland are responsible for the census there:
https://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/2021
https://www.nisra.gov.uk/statistics/census/2021-census
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...... I will, of course, keep my views to myself, beyond wearing a discreet badge!
Martin
Aha! I have reason to believe that below your head and shoulders profile pic is a chest covered in discreet badges. :D :D
Philip
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...... I will, of course, keep my views to myself, beyond wearing a discreet badge!
Martin
Aha! I have reason to believe that below your head and shoulders profile pic is a chest covered in discreet badges. :D :D
Philip
One of which may say ignore the hairy chest, I am still undecided. ;D ;D ;D
Mike
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Little boy in Reception class, playing in the dressing up corner,wearing my enormous old lace curtains ,several metres long.
A riding hat,fur jacket and high boots .
He looked hilarious.
We thought the Head would like to see him so invited the boy to show the Head how well he had done with his reading.
So up the corridor we went ,the lace “ train “ following on for yards.
Round the corner to the Head’s office,he had an open door policy so saw what was coming.
I explained the child wanted to read to him - with barely controlled laughter the Head invited us in.
Reading over we made our way slowly back down the long corridor,the train once again taking its time, the high boots impeding progress.
The little boy was so proud to have read to the Head , had no idea how hilarious he looked and was entirely comfortable with it all.
Not sure what life dealt out to him in later life but I hope he is happy.
I can laugh for ages as the picture comes into my mind.
Viktoria.
P.S.
I feel sure Mart will have at least one badge below the photograph we see,I think it will say” For Clean Hands”. ;D
V.
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It must be a quiet research day if my profile picture has become the subject of discussion.
Anyway, here is the story. Four summers ago I told some friends that during our summer holiday in Montreal & Ottawa I would be drinking Canada dry. Small d.
One blisteringly hot day we were walking along the river in Montreal desperate for a refreshing drink. We came across a small car repair establishment, with a vending machine outside. I was delighted to see that it dispensed small tins of Canada Dry tonic. Alice, ('er indoors), was given strict instructions on how to take the photograph. I eventually used the cropped version as my profile picture here, and also edited it as below.
Martin
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Martin, That is a brilliant photo ;D ;D ;D
Did you actually drink " Canada Dry " ??? ???
Dorrie
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Dorrie, I did find that Canada produces some very drinkable IPA-style bitter. Unfortunately(!), like in America, you have to buy them two at a time so that the second one has an opportunity to warm up to a drinkable temperature.
Martin
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That's an interesting - and fairly plausible - account of your picture. It also squashes an idea that had been gradually forming in my mind.
You see, in view of the wires either side of your head, I'd been wondering if was taken when you were auditioning for a role as an electricity pylon. ;D
But since you often come on here with items of current affairs... ::)
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As a Wikipedia editor, I can tell you that the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday are not considered reliable as sources and we never use them.
Regards
Chas
In many quarters Wikipedia is not looked on as reliable either. It does not do Wikipedia any good to make such comments.
Cheers
Guy
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In many quarters Wikipedia is not looked on as reliable either. It does not do Wikipedia any good to make such comments.
Cheers
Guy
Quite on the contrary, Guy, it does.
All Wikipedia articles are referenced and sourced. The references and sources are there at the bottom of each page. Readers are encouraged to check the sources for themselves. No opinions, no secret whisperings, no dirty deals done in low dives - everything is aboveboard and open to scrutiny.
If an article is found to be in error, it can be changed and swiftly. The trouble is, readers see something with which they disagree and dismiss the whole of Wikipedia on the strength of their opinion. "I remember when I was a lad", or "My dad said", or "Everybody knows" are not references and are not verifiable.
The whole of the British Press has gone down hill and quite swiftly. There was a time, not that long ago, when The Times was known as "The Newspaper of Record". That is to say, if it was in The Times, it was accurate, factual and the truth. Those days are gone. It, like the rest of the press, has given up truth for sensationalism.
Whereas most newspapers are quite obvious about their bias, the DM and the MoS is insidious. If a person travels to South Africa, they would expect to see coloured people. They don't need to be told in the Lifestyle or Travel Section "You will find black people on every street corner".
In my not inconsiderable Wikipedia editing experience, I have found that the only people who defend the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday are their readers.
Regards
Chas
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I do not take the Daily Mail though I have read it in the past when the occasion arose, as I have most papers (I read everything that comes to hand if I have the time to do so).
I stand by my comments
Cheers
Guy
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Whilst criticisms of the newspapers may be well founded, remember newspapers tell their readership what they want to hear. Same goes for politicians. Objective/balanced reporting is just boring to most people. It was always so and will continue to be.
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There was a good programme today after Woman’s Hour I seem to remember there weretwo young men ,Australians I think who spoke a lot of sense.
Neither were straight males, the programme was about Toxic masculinity,.and they pointed out that the attitudes of many men is so hateful and derogatory to women ,that they actually mock, deride and sully what brought them and everyone into the world.
They seemed sensitive and kind and did not actually seem bothered about labels ,they just wanted to be themselves.
It is a complex subject and so much prejudice abounds it is hard to form your own opinion .
After that there was one about Muslim homosexuals,and one young man said when his mother was told her response was “ he is still my son”.
I like to think placed in the same position I would say the same thing.
Viktoria.
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It must be a quiet research day if my profile picture has become the subject of discussion.
Anyway, here is the story. Four summers ago I told some friends that during our summer holiday in Montreal & Ottawa I would be drinking Canada dry. Small d.
One blisteringly hot day we were walking along the river in Montreal desperate for a refreshing drink. We came across a small car repair establishment, with a vending machine outside. I was delighted to see that it dispensed small tins of Canada Dry tonic. Alice, ('er indoors), was given strict instructions on how to take the photograph. I eventually used the cropped version as my profile picture here, and also edited it as below.
Martin
Strange.... I thought that we weren't allowed to put photos of living people on here!
Carol
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Strange.... I thought that we weren't allowed to put photos of living people on here!
Carol
Bit of an assumption there, Carol.
Regards
Chas
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Good point...maybe he is not a living person then ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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If anyone asks, it's my GGG grandfather. He was one of the first to pose for coloured photos.
Martin
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I've no problems with gender. After DNA tests it's ethnicity that might be problematic. Seriously considering doubtful, dubious, or your guess is as good as mine. Since I shall be 81 when the census is taken it may well be my last shot, so I want to go out with a bang
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On a similar note, filling out a form from an Australian government department, instead of the question "married, de facto, or single" there were two choices, single or partnered.
Really? I think the world was better when PC meant a computer, and we still had the ability to laugh at ourselves.
After using Free BMD, when doing 19th Century Male name GRO searches on gov.uk (since it started online) and clicking the button, the page keeps coming up you have not specified Male or Female.
My old brain will eventually get used to an extra button to choose Male/Female.
Mark
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Yes, of course, sex is male or female, nothing else. Gender is more fluid and depends on the individual's self perception. No harm in that.
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I often wonder why it's okay for girls to have short hair and wear trousers to school and it be acceptable but not okay for boys to have long hair and wear skirts ::)
Carol
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Well one school did that, well the boys, just to make a point ,mind you as a woman teacher said at our local High School when skirts were changed for trousers,to see hundreds of overweight girls sitting on the floor during assembly in skirts shorter than pelmets was enough to make anyone ill,.
especially the teachers on the stage .
Well a new problem has arisen,now male ballet dancers can play hitherto female parts the question arises who lifts who?( whom).
There was a good part of a programme debating that last week, Radio 4.
I mean we have only Brexit and Turkey fighting the Kurds who have helped us ,the weather etc to worry about .
Viktoria.
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TreeTotal, as a conformist, I am unable to answer that. Girls are required to keep their hair under control, whereas long-haired boys do want to be flamboyant about it. Boy-buns are not a good look.
Martin
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Boy-buns are not a good look.
I think lads with their hair in high buns in the manner of oriental men look absolutely stunning. I've seen so many of these youngsters wearing their hair thus this summer, and I think it's great. Those of us who were young in the 60s, I'm sure, will remember that we were the ones who threw out the traditional norms, so the lads could grow their hair long, and the girls could wear trousers to work. I think people should be able to express themselves freely - I never could understand in the '60s why crusty old blokes used to have fits of apoplexy and shout at my male friends who were wearing loons, and velvet jackets with gold braid, with hair below their shoulders. Why should it matter what others wear, if it doesn't conform to what we like. I don't wear twin-sets and pearls, but I would fight for the right of others to wear them, be they male or female.
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Not a good look?
Looks pretty good to me.
Mind you, these days I'd be happy with any hair.
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After reading this gender thread - I've asked myself "do I really want to go on living"?
If I'm still here I shall fill in the gender/sex column with "HAVE A GUESS" written as "HAG"
8) 8) ::) ::) 8) 8)
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7464527/Experts-warn-new-trans-friendly-guidelines-wreck-crucial-plans-Britains-future.html
What will they think in 100 years?
From your link Martin...
"People filling in the national census are to be told officially that they can say their sex is different from the one on their birth certificate.
The new guidance runs the risk of affecting vital data regarding the population the Government needs to plan for the future."
Another question asking if their 'sex' is different from what they were born could be applied.
As for 100 yrs, nobody will think anything as it will be the norm (I think) as all the stigma should have disappeared by then :-\
Annie
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Well I too think the hairstyle shown is really attractive.
Can’t really be considered effeminate on a Sumo wrestler .
Tidy and neat it is not new in some Oriental people .
My Min Lwould have been apoplectic given her disgust at my sons’’ long hair,in the seventies ! but I always reminded her that Jesus was a stranger to the barbers!
As for sex, well, they say as you age you remember the past better than the present , and good memories are better left intact, to turn to as and when you need ,so don’t complicate or dull them with what could very likely be much inferior.
Viktoria.
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This whole thing is getting ridiculous.There's no such thing as a sex change. As to M to F it is quite remarkable what the surgery can do, can't tell the difference with the real thing. However, the transexual is not a female, she is a transexual.
As to future Census returns, if any, best question would be TS, M to F or F to M. That would disclose sex at birth.
Those with GRC's are relatively few in number, nothing for anyone to get hung up about.
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Boy-buns are not a good look.
Jon Snow and Uhtred of Bebbanburg prove you wrong, just to name two. :)
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Boy-buns are not a good look.
Jon Snow and Uhtred of Bebbanburg prove you wrong, just to name two. :)
Whoa, that's not proof, that's opinion.
Regards
Chas
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In many quarters Wikipedia is not looked on as reliable either. It does not do Wikipedia any good to make such comments.
Cheers
Guy
That used to be true, but nowadays there is a lot more effort made to ensure entries are both accurate and properly sourced. For example, I happen to know that many of the history entries are edited by academics. That isn't to say that Wikipedia should be seen as the final word on a subject, but it certainly a good starting point for further research.
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And now we have PANSEXUAL making an appearance in National Politics.
Can soneone please enlighten this near 80 year old straight male. What the B------ H--- is one of those?
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And now we have PANSEXUAL making an appearance in National Politics.
Can soneone please enlighten this near 80 year old straight male. What the B------ H--- is one of those?
Well, when a deep fat fryer and a bain marie really love one another ...
Regards
Chas
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I'm a bit hazy on what the apparent difference is between bisexual and pansexual other than, perhaps in keeping with this thread, people identifying as pansexuals consider bisexuality to be somewhat more rigid in the gender/sex binary (attracted to females, attracted to males) while they themselves would consider their attraction to be towards anyone of any variation of gender presentation. I'd had enough ridicule in my time over my orientation that I at least try to keep an open mind about the labels of others, as long as nobody is actually getting hurt over it.
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I think it means not fussy; sort of the equivalent of being an omnivore.
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Thanks. From my somewhat restricted knowledge of Roman History I think the description would have fitted Julius Caesar quite well
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When Prime Minister Cameron suggested abolition of the census. Perhaps he was onto something for once in his life?
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Chas's comment,
"Well, when a deep fat fryer and a bain marie really love one another ..."
should be the last word on this, but I doubt it somehow. I will be quoting his words for many weeks.
Martin
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A genderless prophet drew hundreds of followers long before the age of nonbinary pronouns
Unlike most self-proclaimed prophets, this divine messenger was neither a woman nor a man. The figure would be known simply as the "Public Universal Friend."
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/A-genderless-prophet-drew-hundreds-of-followers-14951098.php
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Well, when a deep fat fryer and a bain marie really love one another ...
Hmmm.... Oil, water and electricity. Sounds to me like things could get hot and steamy, then sparks could fly.
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I'm a bit hazy on what the apparent difference is between bisexual and pansexual other than, perhaps in keeping with this thread, people identifying as pansexuals consider bisexuality to be somewhat more rigid in the gender/sex binary (attracted to females, attracted to males) while they themselves would consider their attraction to be towards anyone of any variation of gender presentation.
That sums it up quite nicely I think.
On another forum someone suggested 'pan' acknowledged the infinite possibilities in gender and sexuality rather than having to conform to binary models. And furthermore being 'pan' was a declaration of ability to love(/be sexually attracted to) anyone anywhere in this infinite spectrum.
That led to an interesting philosophical discussion that if there is an infinite spectrum then it is impossible to declare such an ability, as you could never know if somewhere within that infinite range there was a combination that wouldn't be attractive to you. The mental gymnastics quickly became exhausting. ;)
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Hope it wasn't a thread on this forum!
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On another forum someone suggested 'pan' acknowledged the infinite possibilities in gender and sexuality rather than having to conform to binary models. And furthermore being 'pan' was a declaration of ability to love(/be sexually attracted to) anyone anywhere in this infinite spectrum.
That led to an interesting philosophical discussion that if there is an infinite spectrum then it is impossible to declare such an ability, as you could never know if somewhere within that infinite range there was a combination that wouldn't be attractive to you. The mental gymnastics quickly became exhausting. ;)
It wouldn't be so mentally exhausting if you turned the definition around. A pansexual person just wouldn't rule anyone out as a partner based on their gender or sexuality, so they wouldn't need to acknowledge an infinite number of combinations that they could be attracted to. Of course, like anyone else, they are attracted to, or repelled by certain people based on all sorts of other attributes - sense of humour, intelligence, degree of extrovertness, appearance etc.