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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hertfordshire => Topic started by: Heatha on Wednesday 18 September 19 21:46 BST (UK)
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Hello Hertfordshire !
In 1931 (2nd quarter) Norman Rupert SIMMS married Ethel I CROFT in Luton registration district.
In 1932 (2nd quarter) the birth of their daughter was registered in Berkhampstead registration district, Hertfordshire. (I will post on the Bedfordshire forum as well.)
After that I totally lose sight of them. Has anyone any ideas ?
Thanks,
Heatha
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Rootschat has a no living persons policy to protect peoples privacy. The daughters name needs to be removed from your post and from your Subject box
Look on freebmd - possible marriage for daughter 1952. No death recorded
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Thank you - old age plays tricks on the memory. I have removed the name.
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How do you know his middle name was Rupert? Marriage reg on freebmd only shows his initial.
When was he born? Freebmd has a Norman R Simms birth 1910 Aylesbury and a tree on Ancestry shows he died 1992 - no location shown and nothing online for 1992
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The GRO gives his names as Norman Rupert. He was born in Quainton in the 4th quarter of 1910. I have searched high and low for him in 1939 with no success.
There is no evidence for his death in 1992 on Ancestry. I cannot believe anything without a source.
He is my second cousin.
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The tree shows Ethel was b 1911 in which case I wonder if she was really Ethel I. A birth in Skirlaugh 1911 has Ethell Croft and this is confirmed by GRO search
The tree shows she died 1992 - coincidence?? Nothing online to support that death year
Daughter shown as died 2013 - tree confirms the 1952 marriage was correct
Would suggest you may get more info by contacting the tree owner
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There is a tree on Ancestry that shows his death as before 1991. None of the trees have any sources for a death. There is no sign of them them in 1939.
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I am extremely wary of the information given in Ancestry trees. I see a great deal of wrong information in them.
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As per Bedfordshire Electoral Rolls available on Anc*...
From 1933 to 1936 at 217 Park Street Luton is Norman Simms & Ethel Simms, along with John Croft, Mary Jane Croft & George Croft - most likely Ethel's family.
In 1937 at 222 Park Street Luton are the Crofts & Ethel Simms but not Norman
In 1938 at 222 Park Street Luton are just the Crofts - no Simms
Cheers John
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Thanks, John. Goodness knows where they went after that.
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As per Bedfordshire Electoral Rolls available on Anc*...
From 1933 to 1936 at 217 Park Street Luton is Norman Simms & Ethel Simms, along with John Croft, Mary Jane Croft & George Croft - most likely Ethel's family.
In 1937 at 222 Park Street Luton are the Crofts & Ethel Simms but not Norman
In 1938 at 222 Park Street Luton are just the Crofts - no Simms
Cheers John
Which fits in with them not being found on the 1939 register. Could they have emigrated?
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If they emigrated pre-1939 you would assume dtr b 1932 would have gone with them but she married in England in 1954 if the marriage on freebmd (and the Ancestry tree) are correct??
Perhaps they returned to England but if so - I can't see any deaths for Norman or Ethel that fit their profiles
I also checked www.cwgc.com in case he died in WW2 but no entry for him
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Thank you.
I am completely stumped. I thought I had tried all the obvious routes which is why I asked for help on RootsChat. Sometimes somebody comes up with something I have missed !
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If you have access to Ancestry it may be worth your while having a look at the tree and contacting the tree owner
I completely agree with your comments re not trusting info and there is certainly nothing online to support some of the info re deaths unless they died in another country
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Have you the birth certificate for the girl born Berkhamstead in June 1932 proving she's the daughter of Norman Simms & Ethel Croft
Have you the marriage certificate of this girl in Luton RD in Mar 1952 to prove that she's the daughter of Norman Simms - & this may also say if he's deceased ?
From FreeBMD there's 4 birth indexes containing the names of the couple that got married, first 2 in Luton & then 2 in Hitchin between Sept 1953 & June 1960
Cheers John
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An Electoral register entry shows the daughter and husband in Hitchin 2003-2006
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No, John, no certificates as yet. I think the marriage certificate would be a good place to start. It is the only marriage with that combination of surnames in
I also think that they had four children. I had got that far. It is the only marriage with that combination of surnames in more recent years.
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I also think that they had four children. I had got that far. It is the only marriage with that combination of surnames in more recent years.
Are you talking about the Simms/Croft marriage?
Norman Simms and Ethel Croft married in Luton 1931. I can only see the daughter you are looking for born 1932 Berkhamstead.
There are two more children born to Simms/Croft parents but in 1949 and 1954 in Croydon, Surrey. However they are the children of a different couple who married in Croydon in 1946.
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Possibly of no help, but is there some significance in Norman not being on the electoral roll in 1937.
It’s not like a census, it suggests to me that a decision was made that Norman was no longer a part of this household, rather than not being there the day the form was filled in
Mike
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Possibly of no help, but is there some significance in Norman not being on the electoral roll in 1937.
It’s not like a census, it suggests to me that a decision was made that Norman was no longer a part of this household, rather than not being there the day the form was filled in
Mike
I was wondering that as well.
But-where are the CROFT family in 1939?
Maureen
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Possibly of no help, but is there some significance in Norman not being on the electoral roll in 1937.
It’s not like a census, it suggests to me that a decision was made that Norman was no longer a part of this household, rather than not being there the day the form was filled in
Mike
I was wondering that as well.
But-where are the CROFT family in 1939?
Maureen
Gone from 222 Park Street Luton.
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Possibly of no help, but is there some significance in Norman not being on the electoral roll in 1937.
It’s not like a census, it suggests to me that a decision was made that Norman was no longer a part of this household, rather than not being there the day the form was filled in
Mike
The death of Eric Simms (Normans brother) following a riding accident is reported in the Bucks Herald 10 Mar 1939 along with a list of family mourners present at the funeral conducted at Quainton parish church....
"The family mourners included Mr, and Mrs. J. Simms, father and mother ; Mr. M. Simms and Mr. G. Simms, brothers; Mr. and Mrs, T. Midgeley and Mr. and Mrs. N. Curtis, brothers-in-law and sisters; Miss R. Simms, sister, and Mr. A. Cooper, brother-in-law."
Assuming "M. Simms" is John Mornington Simms then Norman is the only family member not present at his brothers funeral
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Which all seems to be pointing to the fact that he may have been abroad.
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Thank you, especially regarding the article in the Bucks Herald.
I have ordered birth and marriage certificates which should be here by the end of next week.
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Certificates now received. I can confirm that Miss Simms is the daughter of Norman Rupert Simms. At the time of her birth the family were living in Miswell Lane, Tring. Norman's occupation is given as jockey. Her mother is given as Ethel Irene Simms (née Croft). By the time she was married she was a housekeeper in Luton. Her father's rank or profession is not stated. It does not state 'deceased'. Neither of her parents were witnesses at her wedding.
Any more ideas about Norman and Ethel will be most gratefully received.
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From the Bucks Herald 3 April 1928 reporting on Aylesbury Steeplechases.....
" ...the most unlucky rider was N. Simms of Quainton, who came to grief in the first race..."
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Which shows that he really was a jockey. However, would that have been a full time occupation in 1932?
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I'm still wondering where the CROFT family came from and where they went to.
It may hold some clues.
Heatha-what a strange one! And you know we love a puzzle.
Maureen
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Thank you, Maureen.
I am still struggling with the Crofts too. How can two families vanish off the face of the earth and then a daughter reappear to get married 13-15 years later ?
Heatha
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Hello to everyone who has helped along the way with this mystery. Today I have been in contact with Norman's granddaughter. The mystery is, in part, solved.
Miss Simms was brought up by her maternal grandmother in Luton.
Norman and Ethel's marriage was not a happy one. Ethel divorced Norman and remarried Joseph Coffey in the Coventry registration district in 1940. In 1939 she was living with Joseph, in Coventry, and was calling herself Ethel Coffey, even though they were not married.
Norman was in Strangeways Prison in about 1937. That is where I now need to follow up and find out why and for how long.
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Norman was in Strangeways Prison in about 1937. That is where I now need to follow up and find out why and for how long.
See if you can find him on the 1939 register, that might help.
ADDED: I think we have already tried that though haven't we?
It might explain why he wasn't on the electoral register as prisoners aren't allowed to vote.
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I thought that the 1939 register was used as the basis for the NHS register so thought prisoners might be included but I am probably back to front on that one. I imagine prisoners were not of much use in wartime so they would not be considered important !
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I imagine prisoners were not of much use in wartime so they would not be considered important !
Today's prisoner is tomorrow's free man.
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According to WDYTYA Magazine, prisoners were recorded in the 1939 Register with full details.
10 things you should know about the newly-released 1939 Register
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/10-things-you-should-know-about-newly-released-1939-register
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I now believe that he was out of prison. I have ordered his birth certificate and a possible matching death certificate. Now I am playing the waiting game ........ again !
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For anyone who is still following this thread, Norman Rupert Simms was born on 17th September 1910. He changed his name to Norman John Simms and turns up in Rochdale in 1939 as an asbestos spinner. He died in the Royal Infirmary in Manchester on 3rd March 1985. His occupation was given as Market Trader (Retired). His place of birth is given as Aylesbury, Bucks, which ties in.
I think that it was all smoke screens and mirrors to try and avoid his ex-wife finding him.
It transpires that Ethel Croft was, in fact, Ethel Irene Cockroft, born in Glamorganshire on 22nd October 1909. She changed her married name from Coffey to Goffey. More smoke screens and mirrors. She died in May 2002.
What a challenging exercise this has proved to be. I now have copies of all the relevant certificates.
Thank you to everyone who has helped with suggestions and leads.
It is very gratifying when a problem is actually solved.
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For anyone who is still following this thread, Norman Rupert Simms was born on 17th September 1910. He changed his name to Norman John Simms and turns up in Rochdale in 1939 as an asbestos spinner. He died in the Royal Infirmary in Manchester on 3rd March 1985. His occupation was given as Market Trader (Retired). His place of birth is given as Aylesbury, Bucks, which ties in.
Not following at all. Sorry.
"He changed his name to Norman John Simms and turns up in Rochdale in 1939 as an asbestos spinner"
Maureen
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Maureen, I think he has been found in 1939 as Norman John Simms in Rochdale, though with a birth year of 1911 not 1910.
Then dies in 1985, with 17/09/1910 given as his birth.
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Yes, chempat, that is correct. It is all about telling small lies so that he is not easily found. From what I can ascertain he did not want the responsibility of a child. The Simms family, apparently, closed ranks and shielded him, although, it appears, they were not welcoming him back to Buckinghamshire.
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Maureen, I think he has been found in 1939 as Norman John Simms in Rochdale, though with a birth year of 1911 not 1910.
Then dies in 1985, with 17/09/1910 given as his birth.
Thanks,Cpat,
I don't know WHAT I was looking at last night but I could not find that 1939 entry. ::)
Well done to Heatha!
Maureen