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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: onyxandopal on Thursday 19 September 19 11:12 BST (UK)
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Further to my recent post about what uniform the gentleman was dressed in....
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=818453.msg6804181#msg6804181
Could anyone help me with... well... all of it. ???
Basically I now know that the gentleman served with The Connaught Rangers in WW1 (which is why I questioned whether it could have been a Connaught Rangers uniform in the previous post), and later on with The Royal Warwickshire Regiment in WW2. He originated from Dublin and moved to Birmingham in the late 1920s I believe.
This is where you'll have to excuse my ignorance here because I literally know nothing about this.
Why would he have been wearing the Irish uniform if he was part of the British Army - was it something he HAD to do, like national service?? Would he have been on the 'British' side? Was there a British side?
I understand that Ireland became a free state, and this obviously had something to do with it, but I don't 'get' it and what the uniform actually means in terms of his military service?
I keep Googling and the IRA keeps popping up. The IRA are not good, right? Or Yes at that time? I'm so confused!
Can someone please tell me, in easy speak, what the uniform is, and why that man would be wearing it. (Sorry if I sound absolutely ridiculous here!)
Many Thanks
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The Connaught Rangers was British Army.
If it is a Connaught Rangers uniform you won't find any records in Ireland.
It's possible he served in the Irish National Army between the World Wars, did he live in Ireland at the time?
I see you say he moved from Ireland in the 1920s so unlikely he was in the National Army.
The uniform is most likely an unrecognised British Army uniform.
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Is the person beside him in the photo wearing a uniform?
If yes what uniform?
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The Connaught Rangers was British Army.
If it is a Connaught Rangers uniform you won't find any records in Ireland.
It's possible he served in the Irish National Army between the World Wars, did he live in Ireland at the time?
I see you say he moved from Ireland in the 1920s so unlikely he was in the National Army.
The uniform is most likely an unrecognised British Army uniform.
He was from Dublin. I have managed to find some information about him online regarding his time spent with them, and also when he was in the Royal Warwickshire Reg later in life.
He moved to Birmingham from Dublin in approx. 1928/29. (He was definitely there in 1930, but still in Dublin in 1927 anyway).
I've been told by a couple of different people that the uniform in the photo is that of the Irish Free State Army uniform, and could possibly date to the Civil War in 1922-24. (I don't know if that makes sense or is correct).
My query really lies with the time period of the uniform, if it is indeed the Irish State Army uniform. Was the army something that they signed up for? Or they were 'made' to join? Was it a good thing in terms of, was the uniform part of the good side/bad side/no side? All very confusing to me! ???
There are a few people in the photo and they are all wearing exactly the same uniform. They would definitely have been in Ireland at this point.
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If you search in images, the Connaught Rangers cap badge shows a harp.
There are a couple of shapes and I have no knowledge which would be correct for the era.
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The Irish Free State Army and the National Army are the same Army and was the forerunner of today's Irish Army.
Simply the army formed by the (new) state when the British Army left, joining up was and still is voluntary.
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Have you compared photos of the National Army? It looks very possible.
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Is he here?
Military Census 1922 (National Army)
http://census.militaryarchives.ie/
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I've just Googled the cap, and looking at some of the others in the photo, it appears the cap badge does indeed have the 'FF' logo on, which would be the Irish Army.
So if he'd left the Connaught Rangers after WW1, because they were disbanded, would he had volunteered for the Irish Army? (What happened to all the soldiers of the disbanded Irish divisions?)
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Is he here?
Military Census 1922 (National Army)
http://census.militaryarchives.ie/
No, he's not on there. ???
I've got some paperwork in my possession, but he kind of goes 'missing' after leaving the Connaught Rangers until he has his first child in 1926.
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If he needed a job that joining the Irish Army makes sense, he may not have joined until after the Civil War.
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What was his occupation on his marriage?
Was he married in his home area?
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Have you got his marriage cert and the birth cert of 1926, both should have an occupation.
Snap heywood
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Yes, you're right. It does fit time wise.
The Connaught Rangers disbanded in 1922, but he wasn't officially discharged until 1924. It states Royal Dublin Fusiliers Reserves on some paperwork I've seen (which didn't really make sense to me till now). So he possibly was transferred from the Connaught's to the RDF, and then possibly to the Irish Army in 1924. ??? ???
He was a general labourer, and married in May 1922 in Dublin, his home area.
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Yes, you're right. It does fit time wise.
The Connaught Rangers disbanded in 1922, but he wasn't officially discharged until 1924. It states Royal Dublin Fusiliers Reserves on some paperwork I've seen (which didn't really make sense to me till now). So he possibly was transferred from the Connaught's to the RDF, and then possibly to the Irish Army in 1924. ??? ???
No, this cant be right. The Fusiliers also disbanded at the same time.
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Labourer is the usuall occupation on Certs when someone has just left the Army.
Is it also labourer on the birth cert?
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Labourer is the usuall occupation on Certs when someone has just left the Army.
Is it also labourer on the birth cert?
I don't have the birth certificate unfortunately. But everything else I have, or have seen, during this period states he was a labourer.
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Although he got married in May 1922, On the back of the marriage certificate, there is date stamp of from 15 December 1923 from the Record and Pay Office Warwick.
In August 1924, he was officially discharged from the Conaught Rangers after his first period of engagement. He served his country for seven years and 28 days with the Colours and four years 337 days in the Army Reserve. He was discharged in Warwick.
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Was he living in Northern Ireland after 1922?
Where did the marriage and birth take place?
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Was he living in Northern Ireland after 1922?
Where did the marriage and birth take place?
OK, so, 1922 onwards:
Married at the Pro Cathedral, Dublin in May 1922.
First child was born in Dublin. Their address Middle Gardiner St. Second child also born here in late 1927. Third child then born in early 1930 in Birmingham.
Official discharge from Connaughts (on Army form B2079) in Aug 1924. Place: Warwick.
Would Warwick have been just the 'payroll' office as such, that's why it's down as that, and he wasn't actually there. It may be just a co-incidence that they chose to move to Birmingham which was under Warwick in those days, or maybe he was actually there doing some form of military service? I wish people wrote on the back of photos - it would save a lot of hassle! :P
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Just noticed this - Is there anything here?
https://www.nam.ac.uk/records-regiments-disbanded-after-irish-war-independence-go-online
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A protection certificate (soldier not remaining with the colours) was issued to him on 24 Aug 1919. I've googled this and believe it was so he could gain civilian employment.
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Just noticed this - Is there anything here?
https://www.nam.ac.uk/records-regiments-disbanded-after-irish-war-independence-go-online
Yes he is on there, but it doesn't tell me any new information.
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I've found some paperwork saying he joined the Royal Warwickshire Reg in May 1939, and left due to being unfit for service in 1941.
Doesn't fit with his Irish uniform ???. Oh so confusing.
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Just noticed this - Is there anything here?
https://www.nam.ac.uk/records-regiments-disbanded-after-irish-war-independence-go-online
I was looking for that site for ages and couldn't find it.
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I've found some paperwork saying he joined the Royal Warwickshire Reg in May 1939, and left due to being unfit for service in 1941.
Doesn't fit with his Irish uniform ???. Oh so confusing.
He is older on your photo so wrong period.
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If there are several men in the same uniform, is there a clearer picture of the cap badge or any other indications.
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you need the birth Certs of children born in Ireland. Only €4 for a photocopy
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/i-want-to-get-a-copy-of-a-certificate-what-do-i-do
You should be able to get the details you need on FamilySearch.
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He would have been about 43 when he was in the Warwickshire Reg. That photo he looks a lot younger. The cap badge does look like the 'FF' badge on the Free State Army uniform.
Could I presume that once he came back from WW1, he joined the Irish Army and/or gained civilian employment as a labourer until he moved to Birmingham in 1929ish (and until he was called up for service in WW2 in 1939).
And, if he was in the Free State Army - was this a good thing?
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OK, so reading about the civil war, it appears that 'after the onset of the civil war, the guard was rapidly expanded by recruitment of many more men, including Irish veterans of the British Army'.
This makes sense.
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Free State Army was just a normal (legal) Army.
You're getting a bit caught up with the good bad thing.
It's important not to colour events of the past with more recent events.
The original IRA are Irelands heroes. Michael Collins and such like.
The Free State Army was formed out of the IRA.
The later forms of the IRA were made up of people who would have objected to the Free State and its Army.
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Free State Army was just a normal (legal) Army.
You're getting a bit caught up with the good bad thing.
It's important not to colour events of the past with more recent events.
The original IRA are Irelands heroes. Michael Collins and such like.
The Free State Army was formed out of the IRA.
The later forms of the IRA were made up of people who would have objected to the Free State and its Army.
Yes, that's basically what I wanted to know, and why I wanted to know what the difference was because I presumed the IRA of yesteryear, was not the same as we know it today, but I have no clue about this stuff at all so wanted to check I was interpreting the internet correctly. I don't live in Ireland so just wanted to be sure.
Thank you for your help, you've been really helpful.
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Free State Army was just a normal (legal) Army.
You're getting a bit caught up with the good bad thing.
It's important not to colour events of the past with more recent events.
Exactly what I was thinking.
The situation was (and is) complex. What happened in Ireland 100 years ago was a part of 700 years of sometimes violent history in Ireland, Britain and Europe. The current political impasse between the three is a legacy of the partition of Ireland almost a century ago.
The war of independence and the civil war which followed split some families and fractured friendships.
Some participants believed they were fighting for a noble cause, whichever side they were on. Each of the many sides could argue that they were defending their country, or their part of the country, or their community, or their comrades. In the course of that, some took actions or made decisions which they would not have done in normal times. Good people did bad things. Some actions were pro-active, others were reactive. People got caught up in events over which they had no control, and their freedom of action and decision-taking was curtailed. Each action from the Volunteers provoked repression by Crown forces, which stoked resentment, leading to further action, followed by increased repression, and so it escalated.
One side's heroes were another side's villains. Heroes became villains and villains turned into heroes in some cases.
The only certainty is that everyone is a loser in a civil war.
The outbreak of World War 1 caused a split in the Irish Volunteers. Many joined the British Army.
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It's much the same in any country who have been in this position.
You have a force considered to be occupiers
You have (illegal) freedom fighters
The occupiers leave
The freedom fighters become the legal army
In Ireland's case the freedom fighters split between those who agreed with the treaty and those who don't.
Pro treaty become the legal army as they got the goodies which had been controlled by the former occupiers.
Anti treaty become the illegal army. You have Civil War
Which side is good or bad depends on your point of view regards the treaty.
The treaty holds, Civil War ends the illegal army as such melts away,
until you get to the modern era, but that is a different story and generation.
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Yes, that's basically what I wanted to know, and why I wanted to know what the difference was because I presumed the IRA of yesteryear, was not the same as we know it today, but I have no clue about this stuff at all so wanted to check I was interpreting the internet correctly.
The IRA has split into factions or re-invented itself several times over the past century. The Irish Republican Brotherhood existed before the IRA.
Sinn Fein began as a political organisation.
Pay careful attention to sources when you are researching these organisations, as some may be biased.
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Note the belt buckle
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01oe2/