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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Nottinghamshire => Topic started by: Jayson on Monday 23 September 19 15:36 BST (UK)
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Hi
Wondering if someone can confirm that Sir Walter Blount and his wife Sancha de Aylala were buried at St Mary Magdalene Church, Newark, Notts? I have found a source online which states that they were. However, another internet site contradicts the above and says that Sancha was buried at St Mary's Church, Leicester so I am confused.
Many thanks - Jay
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From the History of Parliament website at https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/blount-sir-walter-1403:
...in accordance with the terms of his will, made at Liverpool on 16 Dec. 1401, he was buried at the collegiate church of St. Mary ‘de Newark’ in Leicester (a Lancastrian foundation).
As you say, this is contradictory, and I haven't managed to find a copy of the will to check it. However, the following pages seem to suggest that it was in Newark:
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Church_of_St_Mary_Magdalene,_Newark-on-Trent
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/50515380/walter-blount
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Arthurk has beaten me to it.
According to Wikipaedia he was buried at St Mary's "of the Newark" Leicester. "The Newark" was/is an area in the city of Leicester. At some stage this has been confused with Newark, the town, in Nottinghamshire.
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Arthurk has beaten me to it.
Yes, and we've given completely opposite answers....
According to Wikipaedia he was buried at St Mary's "of the Newark" Leicester. "The Newark" was/is an area in the city of Leicester. At some stage this has been confused with Newark, the town, in Nottinghamshire.
Interesting, but the links I found appear to relate only to Newark on Trent, so it seemed strange to me that they would refer to a memorial in Leicester. However, if there is indeed a large memorial as shown on Findagrave it shouldn't be too difficult to find out where it is.
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Thank you both :)
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Brentor Boy is right about the area of Leicester, and the church of St Mary de Castro is very close to it.
When I was looking yesterday I found the church website (http://www.stmarydecastro.co.uk/), and at the bottom of the homepage there's a link to a virtual tour on Google maps/streetview. I didn't see anything in that which looked like the big painted memorial from Findagrave, so decided on balance that it would be Newark on Trent.
That was before being reminded about The Newarke in Leicester and seeing how close St Mary's was to it, so now I'm wavering a bit, but not yet convinced.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Annunciation_of_Our_Lady_of_the_Newarke#Current_state
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OK, a different church from St Mary de Castro - but assuming the photo on Findagrave really is of Sir Walter Blount's tomb, where was it taken?
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Find a grave has the names of the people who took the photo. Maybe send them a message. I was born and raised in Newark, I certainly have no recollection of a tomb like the one shown. We did rubbings of the memorials when at school and as far as I can remember they were all set into the floor, including a very grand brass one. Surely if it is in Newark, it would be shown on the many photos of the Church. I will go check when I am next in town!
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I’ve really enjoyed reading all your thoughts re the burial of Sir Walter Blount. It’s turned into a fascinating detective story. I have found inconsistencies on Find a grave before where people have posted pictures of church monuments claiming that they are this or that person when the opposite is true.
I think I have seen information somewhere which states that Walter Blount had land in Leicester which makes think he was buried there rather than Nottingham.
Jay😊
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Just a quick update re the burial of Sir Walter Blount. I sent a message to St Mary Magdalene, Newark on Trent explaining the information I was seeking. To this last I attached the photo from Findagrave and they answered back by saying only that that monument wasn’t in their church.
The replay wasn’t very clear. I suppose he could be buried there but without a monument? Perhaps there was once a monument long, long ago which was subsequently destroyed or removed for some reason. Wikipedia states that he was buried there. Of course this site isn’t always factually reliable.
The search goes on🧐
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The St Mary church in Newarke ,Leicester seems to have been demolished very early on -1500s I think. Only 2 arches remain. So the questions are, was the tomb removed to another church? Is it actually a tomb of the Blounts, or has someone just found a "nice" tomb and added their names to it?
I think you need to get in touch with the people who "supposedly" took the photo's.
The monuments in Newark- on-Trent church are all named on their web page. Also as far as I can work out the Blounts had nothing to do with the town, so why be buried there.
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https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4841/46006565621_9e4074f585_b.jpg
Robert and Ann Blount, Astley Church, Worcester
https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4850/44190780990_196c5853d4_b.jpg
Walter and Isabella Blount, same church
https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101082676-church-of-st-peter-astley-and-dunley#.XY4Ek0ZKiUk
Find a Grave, needs a nudge, but I cannot find anywhere to post one!
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(Larkspur has beaten me to it, but I'll post my message anyway as it links to another page too, and a whole collection of images from Astley.)
I've just done a Google image search for Sir Walter Blount and found a picture of the same tomb in Astley, Worcestershire. There are actually two very similar tombs there, both for members of the Blount family: one is apparently for Robert (d 1573) and Anne; the other for Walter (d 1561) and Isabel (d 1562).
For more, see the following:
http://www.churchmonumentsgazetteer.co.uk/Worcestershire.html
https://www.flickr.com/photos/52219527@N00/with/4709171050/
Google also brought up some images/results at Findagrave, which on this occasion did mention Astley, but this experience has significantly lowered my opinion of that site.
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Excellent Arthurk, the second set are stunning photo's.
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I reckon they're pretty stunning memorials - wouldn't mind having them in my family ;D
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Larkspur/arthurk :o :o :o
Wow!!! Great detective. Mystery solved! Thank both so very much for all your help😉 So the memorial on Findagrave is dedicated to a completely different person, from a later generation but the same family?
All goes to show how very important it is to check, and check again secondary sources online rather than taking info one finds at face value. A valuable lesson. So pleased I posted the topic here. Perhaps the person who posted the image on Findagrave confused the two Walter Blounts? When I originally found the image I thought it appeared later in date than the date Sir Walter Blount died which was in early 1400s.
I found other misleading information on Findagrave and other places online re burials. Last year I was looking for the burial of George Stanley. He married the daughter of the first lord Dudley. According to a source I discovered he was said to have been buried in Lichfield Cathedral with a monument. Wrong. It was a different Stanley but from the same family.
I wonder if there is any evidence anywhere to say that Sir Walter Blount was buried at Leicester?
Jay😊
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Perhaps the person who posted the image on Findagrave confused the two Walter Blounts?
Evidently - and they must have lifted the photo from somewhere else as they clearly haven't visited the church where they claim it was taken. Nor, it seems, are they aware of the significance of Leicester in the instructions in Sir Walter's will. (I admit that at first I too prioritised 'Newark' over 'Leicester', though I had hoped to find a copy of the will in order to make sure of what it actually said.)
It appears you can submit corrections at Findagrave, though you need an account to do so.
I wonder if there is any evidence anywhere to say that Sir Walter Blount was buried at Leicester?
No parish registers at that date, and as has been pointed out, the church is no longer there. There are articles about Sir Walter at Wikipedia (beware - the article there on St Mary's Newark says he was buried there!) and the Dictionary of National Biography (which is generally regarded as pretty authoritative); these might lead to other sources, but I don't know what they would be. Ideally you'd want to find some contemporary chronicles; or I wonder - might his widow have left a will in which she asked to be buried "alongside my husband at...."?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Blount_(soldier)
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Blount,_Walter_(d.1403)_(DNB00)
The DNB link here is to an older out-of-copyright edition. I can access the latest one through my public library card, and it adds a bit more:
- Sir Walter was entrusted with the care and tutelage of the young Prince Thomas
- Sancha Blount lived until 1418 or 1419 as a pensioner of the crown and was buried beside him
- Prince Thomas set aside 1000 marks for the erection of a splendid Blount family chantry at St Mary's.
As sources, it mentions Parliamentary (Commons) and Chancery records, and the following volumes:
N. H. Nicolas, ed., The Scrope and Grosvenor controversy, 2 vols. (privately printed, London, 1832)
S. Walker, The Lancastrian affinity, 1361–1399 (1990)
A. Croke, The genealogical history of the Croke family, 2 vols. (1823)
R. Somerville, History of the duchy of Lancaster, 1265–1603 (1953)
Just a few things to get your teeth into....
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It appears you can submit corrections at Findagrave, though you need an account to do so.
Yes, you can submit corrections, but the manager of the memorial at Findagrave can reject the edit.
In my experience the majority of the managers are pleased to receive the information, but I have had a couple of gnarly ones who refused to accept the edit because they said it didn't agree with their information.
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A quick follow-up: the Medieval Genealogy website has a few links relating to the Blount family at
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/families/families_b.shtml
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I did send corrections to both the person who posted the photo and to Find a Grave. Not sure anything with come of it, but I also "laid "flowers with a comment on there too.
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Thank you both for the updates😊 I never heard back from the church in Nottingham re Walter Blount. Not interested I guess?
Jay
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I can confirm that neither Sir Walter Blount or his wife Dame Sancha de Ayala were buried in Newark. Both were buried in Leicester at St Mary Collegiate Church (de newarke (meaning new work)). This church was demolished and De Montfort University now stands on the site. I have been unable, so far, to locate or find what happened to their remains. The photos shown online at various ancestry sites is of two of his sons. One is at Warwick Cathedral and the other is in York Minster. I hope to go to York Minster soon to confirm who is there.